2nd edition Vs. 3.5 Awnies

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Well, as I sit about to rework Sword and Crown for my players. (Disguise and alter the chain of events and update some of the critters to 3.5) I am confronted by a somewhat glaring reality.

The 3.5. Awnies are really really powerful as compared to 2nd edition.

The whole climax of the adventure around the sword and crown is that the players in the end do not confront Rhoubhe and have to take the deal he offers/allows. (The adventure is scaled 4th to 7th) I have no doubt that the Manslayer will or would wipe the floor with them if so low a party confronted him.

However having been there once the players will at some point decide to return and confront him when they feel up to the challenge and this is the crux of my question to the populace.

If a party in 2nd edition chose to Confront the Manslayer (If my memory serves 17th level Fighter and 15th level wizard) they would under D&D 2nd edition be confronting a 19th level challenge. (Again bear with me as this from memory of a game system I have not played in a while) as characters with two or more class levels were considered 2 levels above their highest class level for challenge determination purposes. (MatanThunder Help me out here you are the resident 2nd edition holdout/guru)

The manslayer in 2nd edition did not gain any extra hits from his Mage levels, (I think he had 88 or some such) and thus a party of 11-14th level might expect to be able to succeed in a truely epic confrontaion with the Awnie. Perhaps as a climax to a campaign.

I have seen several incarnations of the manslayer converted to 3.5 in which his 17 fighter and 15 mage levels are carried over intact and this amounts to a 32 level epic NPC.

It seems, and this is of course just me that the original design of the Birthright setting was rather low powered. A 19th Manslayer was a fearsome enough opponet, but acheivable by a determined High Mid/Low Teen leveled party.

A 32nd level epic is unconfrontable by any party that has not reached or crossed the threshold of Epic levels itself.

Now certainly a D.M. can have his baddies as powerful as he or she wants, but confronting a awnie once and being to weak to resist his demands is fine. To repeatedly have the main badguy of the campaign so powerful that the players are cowed over and over is demoralizing.

The manslayer exists in his nearly impregnable realm,in his dread fortress, plotting against the regents that surround him. A 19th level manslayer might do this, raiding out to strike at his hated foes under cover of Darkness.

Not terrified mind you as he is a creature of tremendous power, but careful to ensure that he does not encounter a 12th level Beoruine surrounded by his men at arms and followers directly, or a mid level party of heroes/fools. (The Pathetic humans could get lucky)

The 19th level Manslayer is by need a plotter and puppetmaster who despite his abilities could still be overthrown by tremendous expense, effort and heroism if he could somehow be bearded in his lair.

The 32nd level epic manslayer would fear nothing, crush any who even dared to oppose him. Such a creature would not hold up in his mountain retreat, harassing the human kingdoms about him and plotting on the life of Beoruine, Avan, and Flaertes. It would travel to their courts, kick in the doors, and take what it desired from the objects of its hate. That he forebears from this course makes very little sense.

To me at least it changes the flavor of the campaign to convert directly level for level from 2nd edition. The power structures of the two systems were very very different.

Anyway thats my two cents…your thoughts?

2

That’s the problem with direct conversions. 3rd Edition is far removed from 2nd Edition. To keep Rhoubhe (Rove) about the same power he was in 2nd Edition, you’ll have to make him a 10th level fighter, 5th level mage, 4th level Eldritch Knight.

Elton.

3

Yup class levels do not convert directly.

IIRC the D&D 3.0 conversion document had you subtract two for each of a multiclass character’s other classes.

IMO I see no reason why the major anwies are not epic level creatures in the first place (> 20th level). They should be since they are so powerful and epic reflects that.

PCs should not be able to reasonably take on the Manslayer or the Gorgon until they are >20 level characters themselves. They are after all taking on near deities.

4

I’d go with Ftr 4/Wiz 6/EK 10. It makes Rhuobhe 20th-level, emphasises his wizard spells and still gives him fighting punch.

5

That’s certainly true. One thing I’d like to point out, however, that I’d thought that he didn’t put as much importance on his wizardling ability so much as his fighting ability.

The Manslayer is a slayer. You could almost say he has at least one level of Ranger and declared human to be his species enemy.

6

The central point of my post was that the Campaign setting as set up does not support the Manslayer being a 32nd level epic NPC. If he was such a being there is nothing and no one that could contain him. If he has nothing to fear why then is he contained in such a tiny domain?

In the original setting he was about a 19th level effective. The campaign setting is not well served by making him a 32nd level epic. inmo…

7

And that makes a lot of sense.

In 2nd ed BR elves couldn’t be ranger/wizards but they can be in 3.5.

So having him be a ranger/wizard instead of a fighter/wizard makes a lot more sense themeatically, at least to me. Or probably a ranger/sorcerer would be an even better fit (using only SRD core classes and no prestige classes).

8

Ever since the setting came out, I’ve always thought of him as being at least that powerful. He was a leader of the elves 1500 years ago, and if any Sidhelien in Cerilia was disciplined (indeed, monomaniacal) enough to keep steadily increasing his skills over those long years, the Manslayer is the one. I think he could take out most human realms entirely by himself. However, I also think he is kept very busy in the Shadow World, contesting directly with the Cold Rider: in my view, he spends all his time and effort ruling the entire shadow Aelvinnwode, while leaving the fight against the humans for the rest to all the other, less-epic elves, keeping his one province on the “light” side of the Evanesence mainly for sentimental value.

Ryan

9

Dcolby schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3871
> Dcolby wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> PCs should not be able to reasonably take on the Manslayer or the Gorgon until they are >20 level characters themselves. They are after all taking on near deities.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> The central point of my post was that the Campaign setting as set up does not support the Manslayer being a 32nd level epic NPC. If he was such a being there is nothing and no one that could contain him. If he has nothing to fear why then is he contained in such a tiny domain?
>
> In the original setting he was about a 19th level effective. The campaign setting is not well served by making him a 32nd level epic. inmo…
It makes no difference actually - in 2E Birthright right from the atlas
where the regents are all relatively lowlevel and PC?s start as lowlevel
characters as well a 19th level Rhuobhe is personally as fearsome as a
32nd level NPC in 3E. On the domain level however even the most powerful
characters realm had only 3 domain actions in 2E.

Having Rhuobhe be a “static” monster while the PC?s evolve into mighty
heroes sounds wrong to me, so why should they expect Rhuobhe to be the
same opponent the second time they meet him as he was the first time? As
they gain experience so does he while fighting his neighbours.

10

I still must differ with you on this slightly…I do not contend that Rhoubhe should be static…The rate of progression for a High level slows as the the lower level P.C.s approach the point where they can contend with the manslayer. Perhaps not defeat, but certainly contend with.

(Certainly Rhoubhe does not gain much experiance anymore for killing low level humans so despite his 1500 years of butchery very few foes any longer have anything to teach him.)

And certainly to a 1-8th level PC in any edition a 19th level NPC and a 32 level NPC are little different in the scale of how dead you are after it is all over.

However in both 2 ed and 3.5 a party between 11th and 14th level could hope to give the 19th level Manslayer at least a scare. If not perform some outright heroic deads.

The 3.5 32 level epic Rhoubhe is nigh untouchable by the typical power levels described by the setting and therefore free to cleanse the humans from Cerillia.

Indeed there is nothing to prevent such a creature (Realm actions aside) from walking into the Imperial City and laying waste, such a being may be contested in say Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms where potential epics could gather to counter it. However the power levels of the inhabitants of the Former Anuirean empire to do not suggest this possibility.

I think direct level for level conversion of the super Awnies from 2 ed to 3.5destroys the flavor and intended balence of the campaign.

The Awnies are there to act as adversaries and be contested eventually by your players. (Perhaps not the Gorgon)

I think that Epic Players upset the setting balence as much as an Epic Awnie.

So again after all my babble it is a matter of styles and so I guess I want my Awnies to be eventually challenged…to each their own Anuire so to speak. :smiley:

11

Well actually in 2nd ed his level was equivalently muchhigher thanhis mere class levels.

He had a rating of 21,000 xp (Blood Enemies pg 73). Using the table in the 2nd ed DMG (pg 69 Table 31) to figure back fit his “level” from that xp total.

He ends up being a 31st level equivalent character.

13 or more hit dice or level = 3,000 xp + 1,000 xp per Hit Die (or level) over 13

21,000 - 3,000 = 18,000

18,000/1,000 = 18

total level equivalent = 13 + 18 = 31

So even with a straight up level conversion he is still roughly the same “power level”. So a party between 11 and 14th level would still not come close to his “power level”.

12

Actually there is something very obvious which stops a L32 Roubhe from attacking the courts of the realms around him - his L0 or L1 people. Boeruine may not be able to kill a L32 Rhoubhe, but he could - easily - burn Rhoubhe’s forest to the ground killing everything within it, sow the ground with salt, and so destroy the elf’s hopes of someday restoring the elves to prominence.

Rhoubhe may have the drive to gain level after level, but to me the bulk of his people should be cherished - they don’t need to follow his ways, but should instead live as the elves of old times did, free of all cares guarded by a handful who have sacrificed their joy to learn the arts of war. I’d have a few hundred tough gheallie sidhe with the rest of the population ‘normal’ and thus vulnerable to a major war. In that scenario Rhoubhe can raid, but not start a war since it would end in his peoples destruction.

Hmm, when I planned out S&C I had Rhoubhe return with the PC’s and thoroughly enjoy baiting nobles into duels, winning every single event of skill to prove elven superiority, openly boast to Boeruine that Aubrae promised him the forested Boeruine provinces, and generally amuse himself tumbling the human realms fell into discord…

I’d make Rhoubhe a L6 ranger, L16 sorcerer, L4 scion of Azrai. Still easily strong enough to make a PC party under L16 be almost sure to face defeat, but (assuming his constitution is not ridiculous) leaving him weak enough to be potentially vulnerable. Some of those sorcerer levels might be in an anwshegh class that gives spellcasting, or similarly the ranger levels. It depends whether you see Rhoubhe as a spell slinger or a sword swinger, I see the Gorgon as a sword swinger so make Rhoubhe the spell slinger.

13

Actually, according to the 3rd edition conversion manual PDF from WotC, an NPC or PC with more than one class was converted as follows:

  1. Find the highest level the character has reached in any class. For example, Rhoube is a 16th-level fighter/15th-level wizard. His highest level is 16.

  2. Divide each level the character has achieved in any other class by three and round down. If the result rounds down to 0, record a 1 instead. For example, Rhoube’s remaining levels are 15; 15 ÷ 3 = 5.

  3. Add the numbers you got in step 2 to the number you got in step 1. This equals the character’s level in the new edition of the D&D game. In Rhoube’s case, 16 + 5 = 21.

  4. You can divide up the levels among classes any way you see fit. For example, Rhoube could become an 11th-level fighter/10th-level wizard, or a 16th-level fighter/5th-level wizard, or any other combination of wizard, and fighter levels that adds up to 21.

Eldritch Knight levels would probably bump up his power a bit, or for something different, Arcane Archer levels.

I’ve found this formula to work really well for almost all my NPC’s from dark sun and other 2nd edition worlds, so feel free to use it how you will. It creates a powerful enough NPC to mimic what their 2nd edition challenge level was, while keeping in line with the new 3.5 edition rules and not going way over the top.

I recall some people converting dragon kings from dark sun (22 level wizard / 22 level psionicists) into 44th level NPC’s with templates on top of that. And while its cool to see uber powerful enemies like that, virtually nobody will game that long that they can survive an encounter with that kind CR level. As DM’s I feel its more important to press on the players the overwhelming power that such an NPC commands in other ways than just listing off insanely powerful stats.

14

Much more important that paying any attention to the conversion manual are the arguments put forward in the post on the Manslayer. The major villains need to be powerful enough that they can’t be bowled over too soon by characters merely on their way up, but not so powerful that the players will never have a snowflakes chance of surviving a wayward glance by the NPC at their peak of prowess. The major NPC’s will have to be scaled to whether the DM wants a low-level, mid-level, or high to epic campaign.

Also, DM’s will sometimes look at the abominations they have and want to mix up the power levels to present a different kind of threat. My own latest campiagn will feature a 19th level Siren, because I want an abomination to strike out around the mid-level for the players and be tough enough that the players have to have their ducks in a row to take her out. The Siren presented in the books was simply too easy.

At one point, when one of my players saw somewhere the official power level of the Siren, he thought, out of character, about taking her out. It would be certainly heroic and he might get some of those precious xp that came so dearly once a PC gets into mid-level. I hinted around that while that might be the official write-up, one had to wonder what I might have done to her. He never pursued such a plan in-character.

15

As I’ve said before, the Darkwood Stalker PrC makes for an admirable Sidhe human-slayer. A Rgr/Ftr/Sor/Eld/Dark would make for an awesomely powerful awnshegh, without going into silly epic (30th plus).

16

Good follow up on finding the correct text in the Conversion Manual.

One thing it fails to cover though is the fact that Rhoube also has the equivalent of monster levels (in 3.5 terminology) in addition to class levels. Those are what bumped up his xp rating in 2nd ed so much. So another 2 or 3 should probably be added to his “level”, which would actually end up translating into a higher CR than his class level.

17

:rolleyes:

A small point is that not one of you has looked at Rhoube as an evolving NPC…he never gains levels???..he never changes his class or perceptions???

Any NPC an evolve as the PC’s do…so the 19th lvl Rhouble of 2nd ed (my system) could well become more powerful as the PC’s do, especially through conquest and personal questing as an NPC…it is a neverending cycle.

There is no real comparison for levels and stats in 2nd ed vs 3.??. Yes you can convert them, but there are very few DM’s available that are going to let you move the PC’s one way or the other.

But Rhoube could easilly gain levels and still make the game a challenge…how about he reaches lv 18 as a mage…learns the Stasis Clone spell, and when he dies he always turns up somewhere else…then the PC’s still get the EXP, but like the Everyready Bunny…he keeps going, and going, and going…

Later

:cool:

18

But that is exactly the effect I want from the Manslayer, at least if I am running a non-elven campaign; that is, as a potential ally, his power has to be much less than if he is an enemy. From the POV of the humans, I don’t want him to be the Witch-King of Angmar, or even Sauron – I want him to be Morgoth, whose wayward glance no PC will ever be powerful enough to survive. I want him to be the kind of foe that can only be faced by appealing to an external higher power: you can’t ever fight him directly, you can only have Earendil sail to Aman to ask the Valar to fight him for you. To make a D&D analogy, I want it to be similar to the part of Temple of Elemental Evil where Iuz shows up, and the party’s goal is simply to survive until St. Cuthbert appears to protect them, then he and Iuz disappear to handle things on their own somewhere else. Even if a human PC reunited not only Anuire, but all of Cerilia under his banner, I would never let him conquer Rhoubhe’s one lone province by purely military means; I would instead require a major adventure quest to convince the gods or some other equivalently powerful extraplanar beings to fight Rhoubhe for him.

Ryan

19

Everyone seems to be moderating their NPC’s to suit their needs as Gm’s - which is exactly what they should do. I

I found that a variety of regents were far too weak to have any respect from my pcs - bumping almost all low level regents by about 5 levels for my campaign and warning players that none of the book entries necessarily were correct was a start. Some low level regents were “front men” for powerful figures in the background.

All powerful intelligent opponents should have the ability to gain levels, items and power.

In fact I would suggest that if; in any of the senarios run, the players annoyed Rhoube sufficiently he would classify them as enemies, gather information on them and probably hurt them - before they became a sufficient threat to hurt him - thus inflaming their desire to get back at him!

If they turned up with powers and items gathered over several years to finally confront him they may be suprised by the turn of events…

Clones and slaying arrows with the PC’s name on them would probably be the least of their worries. He would know almost everything about them and their abilities.

Planning for eventualities is the sort of thing that keeps you alive for a long long time in a dangerous world and Rhoube has lived a very long time… His actual level and threat level would not necessarily reflect his true danger.

Tactically Rhoube to me is a hit and run sort of guy. Having an arrow duel with someone with extra range and the ability to imbue his arrows with spells + being immune to arrows himself strikes me as Rhoubes sort of thing. Travel(teleport/Dimension door etc) if threatened.
Getting bogged down in a slug fest where he can’t control the variables - Not.

Strategically Rhoube is in the middle of a bunch of Hostiles - In one of the biggest fortresses around. - if he makes an obvious move on anyone the surrounding Kingdoms would register him as a large threat and combine to eradicate him (forgetting their petty differences for a while to dish it to the old enemy). Getting to him at the moment is difficult and not worth the trouble.
If he doesn’t do any major damage (at least thats traceable to him) the status Quo is maintained.

He also in my understanding has no wish to rule a human kingdom - just to kill them all.

His aim therefore has to be to foster the human bickering and cause even greater skism and collapse in the empire. If he can engineer great destruction and warfare between human nations and weaken them sufficiently then he might find great opportunities.

Small opportunities might present themselves - If Alam invaded Tournen I’m sure Rhoube wouldn’t mind eradicating the population of a couple of Tournen’s provinces while their armies were busy fighting Alamies army.

People would probably even blame Alam - because thats what the expect Man slayer to do given the opportunity.

20

I think his people are untouchable by mortal means. No amount of human effort is getting past his magical protections on his lands. In fact, there’s no reason at all why his province isn’t Warded essentially permanently, so that only he can come and go whenever he feels like bathing in the blood of a few thousand humans.

Ryan