4th edition

3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)

My concern isn’t with whether or not we have the label of being official or not. It is more to do with Br.net presently being given the rights to freely use copyrighted material to further the design of the product. If all fansites including ours are put in the same boat and the copyright permission is not granted to any fans, then we may have to rewrite major components of the wiki and the BRCS, or just stop “publishing” them altogether.

After all, what happens if Anuire or Cerilia is a protected trademark…

Mind you, we are co-copyrighters of what is presently on br.net … to quote the agreement that br.net abids by as the “official website”:

Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other.

I would be very disappointed if Gleemax claimed “ownership” over everything “published” within any new forum, rather than acknowledging that the fans are also copyright holders.

Don’t forget that the worse case scenario (ie. just being a mailing list on Gleemax) would just be a return to what we were in 2000. While the present situation is far better, the Birthright community survived then.

Sorontar.

To get a little discussion going…

  1. To be clear, does Birthright.net have the rights to do “official” releases for a 4th edition Birthright Campaign Setting, etc? The responses mentioned above were a tad bit vague.

  2. Assuming the answer is yes, should we do a 4th edition Birthright? It needs to be asked, as it does take a significant amount of work (note the semi-finished nature of the 3.5 rules) and play-testing.

  3. Should we investigate getting pre-release copies in the hands of key people to start working on a conversion?

  4. Assuming the answer is yes (to #2), then will we distribute it on Birthright.net exclusively, or also on Gleemax, or exclusively on Gleemax? This needs to be asked for a multitude of reasons. If we keep it exclusive to Birthright.net, it is actually less resource intensive, and has a different audience than adding in Gleemax would. I would suggest, that we strongly consider something on Gleemax. Birthright was never a huge seller or hugely popular due in part to TSR’s financial problems, and if we ever want to see our beloved setting published again, we need to find a way to appeal to new audiences. Creating a 4th edition Birthright for Gleemax distribution, including extra content (more examples, streamlined rules, and starting adventure modules), would be a great way to put Birthright on top of the pile of old settings for them to consider for revival.

4a. We need to be sure any play-online portion of 4th edition supports realm play and bloodlines if at all possible. This would be critical.

  1. What works, what doesn’t, what is too complex, what is too simple, what is missing? Although we know little about 4th edition, there is some info out there - any potential conflicts?

  2. Products. It is seriously hard to make a product line and campaign setting thrive based on 1 rulebook, no matter how good. Birthright hasn’t had more than 1 book/product since what, 1997? Thats more than a decade by the time 4th edition comes out! Given what exists in the original line, perhaps, when considering 4th edition, we should, as a community, explore additional products, conversions, and even books. This may range from simply converting existing products and re-releasing, to securing the rights to any products we do not have the rights to, securing permission to majorly change the setting (which we do not currently have), to securing new authors, etc.

Perhaps this needs to be its own thread, but I didn’t want to be the one to start it. It should all be discussed though.

Instead of worrying about how this will negatively impact our community, we should instead look at the wonderful tools and opportunity we’ve been given. WoTC only has 2.5 official campaign settings for 4th edition (FR, Eberron, and arguably Greyhawk - I’d probably leave it at 2 personally). Of all the old settings, it’s possible that Dark Sun and Planescape may have more fans, but due to a variety of factors (psionics, the planar re-ordering, and internal factors), I’d say Birthright, if it were to put in a strong showing, would have the greatest chance of making a revival (at least as a single rulebook). If we were to basically create a quality, well play-tested product (which this site has done in the past) that seemlessly fits into 4th edition, then it would be very, very simple for WoTC to pick it up and print it.

  1. From the quote given of Rich Redman it sounds like the ‘official’ status would be dropped of anything anyone does except Wizards themselves. We could curve around that a bit by saying ‘From the creators of the official 3.5 Birthright rules’, to make it sound official. :slight_smile:

  2. I have a feeling they would pull out Ravenloft, Dragonlance and Dark Sun before they did a revamp of Birthright. That is unless they saw the potential that Birthright is fairly unknown to most and could be re-imagined easier than the other settings. So doing a 4th edition ourselves would be only as much worth as it would give your personal group or hobby satisfaction.

  3. Are you talking about the playtest rules of 4e? I think they pretty much have set their playtesting picking procedure.

I think a couple things need to happen with Birthright/4th edition. Keep in mind, these are just my opinions at this point in time (who knows, they might change). Some of these ideas might seem extreme, especially to those established in their ways, but obviously something needs to be done to freshen it up. Birthright is kind of an oddity as a campaign setting, because basically it is not only a D&D game world with blood abilities added, but it is also a second game of running your guild/temple/wizard tower/etc. It can be one, the other, or a combination of the both of varying degrees.

First, I think it needs to embrace the 4th edition philosophy to simplify a few things. 2nd edition it was pretty clear and easy to determine your regency collection. In 3.5, well when you are looking at 1/4th the sum of ranks in a number of skills to find the % of your collection, it is a little more complicated. I understand why it was done with multi-class combos and the math and logic works pretty well, but I think something cleaner is needed.

Blood score and blood abilities… The original dragonmarks :slight_smile: Bloodline and blood abilities should be separated up a bit. A wizard is going to want to be blooded, but not at the expense of his ability to cast spells (level adjustment). We know level adjustments are for 4th edition going away, and something like the racial level abilities might have to be done for the blood abilities. However I propose that the blood score and blood abilities shouldn’t be directly tied. The bloodline score has a direct influence on the domain gameplay and blood abilities have a direct affect on either type of gameplay depending on the ability. So the bloodline score should be determined by some domain side mechanic, while the abilities only appear if they player wants to ‘buy’ them with their feats (or some other mechanic). The domain side would allow the gain of domain side powers while the adventuring side would gain combat/adventuring type blood abilities. I’m just brainstorming here and I don’t have anything concrete. I can see some debate on which side a certain ability should go under, etc. and we don’t know all of the mechanics for 4e.

The gameworld: On the gameworld side of things, I think a major ‘event’ needs to happen like the spellplauge they are planning for FR. Perhaps push the date forward a bit, etc. 4e is going ‘Points of light in a world of darkness’. I see Birthright as points of darkness in a world of gray. I’m not certain if this should change or not. Having the Gorgon and perhaps the Spider or some other Awn. spread out a bit and thrown into their lands a few fortified castles and towns (points of light) still held by the ‘good’ races would make for some good adventure level gameplay. But I’m not sure how well it would work for the domain level of gameplay.

One more thing that I think should be looked at is the tie of nature to arcane magic in the setting. Their is speculation of martial, arcane, divine and nature (a few others I can’t recall right now - like psionics that obviously wouldn’t fit birthright) power sources for the character classes. If we could device a way to separate the druid and wizard vying for control of sources, (could tie this into the ‘event’), giving the druid the nature based power and the arcane side a new ‘source’ of power it would clean things up a bit and also make the domain side of rules more adaptable to other campaign settings.

Finnally, I think I’d like to see the new 4e cosmology used (personal taste and it would tie it closer to 4e). You’d still have the shadow-world for the halfling story/abilities, but it would tie in other stuff better.

Another line of thought crossed my mind as well. They are from a design philosophy creating the classes based on role on one axis and power source on the other axis. We could throw ‘bloodline’ as a new power source into the mix and create a new line of classes from the Leader/Blood (Noble?) to the Striker/Blood (BloodStalker? - out of the blue name) and so forth.

From the most recent poll of the Swordmage and other browsing over the years however, it seems that ‘Leave it up to the DM’ is a common motto for the old Birthright crowd, which means major change is going to be like pulling teeth (assuming doing any of this is allowed).

The Gleemax vs. Birthright.net question, I would say is a tough question. Gleemax is a mess right now, so who knows what the final product will look like or can do. Being on Gleemax does sound like it would give more awareness to those who weren’t around in the 90’s for its release.

Hrm. His response leaves a bit to be desired now that I re-read it.

Our current agreement prohibits major events, and the like. We can add detail, but we can’t change essentials.

It does, but it’s amazing what a bunch of small things, and rumors can do to change the feeling of a setting.

Well I’d hope not to change the feel of the setting as I quite like it :slight_smile:

I would however probably want more chaos for a campaign less focused on politics - I wouldn’t have thought that rotating regents or tweaking realms (other than the big 3 or 4) would be a major change, although getting rid of a major awnshegh probably would be.

The realms, I note, suffers from popularity clutter - it has a lot of supplements, novels, articles etc - which means that periodically parts come into conflict or jar with the way the overall setting is moving and they need to go about pruning. BR had only just got started when they canceled it (relatively speaking, they did pretty well in the time they had) so is still in the opening stage.

The sad thing is that of all the BR areas most likely to need updating for 4e its chapters 1 and 2 - which were the only ones of the play-test finished. The realm rules will still likely be setting specific so if those had been sorted then they’d be fine barring a few tweaks for knock-on changes.

Oh well, at some point more concrete stuff will come out on 4e and we can get started, until then it’s fluff ahoy and crunch on stand-by…

How popular is the holding system as is or with minor tweaks? How interested are people in seeing a dramatic revision. I don’t mean committing ahead of time to a dramatic revision described in vague terms, I mean how many are not so devoted to the existing holdings system (tweaks aside) that if someone came along and said a new and finished domain system was significantly more compatible with the current rules set that you would give it a serious examination.

For example, if I were pitching for BR today, I’d want three teams working on the following three systems - a 3.5 update of the holdings domain system, a skills based system of competitive die rolls where circumstances, holdings, and bloodlines were modifiers, and an elaboration of the organizations rules which appeared in slightly different versions in several books.

I think the current BRCS was trying for system 2 but was trapped in the gravity well of system 1. That’s the view of an outsider looking at the rules.

4th Edition will present new challenges and opportunities, which as Andrew suggests, may not present themselves right away.

I have been trying to read up on 4th edition. I can see where obvious changes are and how they will effect BR, but others would be more difficult. Really we just have to wait until release before we can judge.

I would be in for keeping the same holding system but tweak it.

Interesting things I have seen so far. Looks like they are going to a at-will/once a combat/once a day type of powers that could translate into BR. At will/ Once a month/ Once a Turn power.

  1. Max out a build action GB roll once a turn.
  2. Include an additional province in a Realm Spell once a turn with no cost.
  3. Personally agitate for yourself in local province once per month.
  4. Allow RP use to Rule a province once a year.

Could be a good way to specialize rulers.

-BB

Well, regarding construction dice rolls, if the ruler isn’t present, I always take a flat roll of 2 (if it’s a d4) to indicate that the court is competent and plays safe, without being risky or too innovative.

If the ruler is present in the province (spends a character action or happens to be there anyway), I let him roll, if he wants too. Thus it is generally better for a ruler to personally oversee his realm, but it’s quite adequate of looking after itself.

I’m still pouring through the 3.0 and 3.5 BR rules for Bloodlines and Holdings (and comparing them to the 2ed rules).

I am also assuming that since we have permission to use copyrighted works, that permission extends to updating and reprinting things like adventures, atlases, etc?

The main problem I see with any such extra settings is complication and clarity. The 3.5 rules for Bloodlines for example could have had alot better presentation and clarity at the least as I sit here reading them. Likewise, there is by far, too many optional rules cluttering stuff up. The house GM can create his own stuff or some sort of suppliment can include those sorts of things, but it should not be in the core rules. The domain/holding mechanisms really need to be examined for ease-of-use. I’m not saying there is a problem, but it needs to be a constant goal. If we want players to pick up the Birthright setting, play it, like it, and want to keep using it…we cannot have it be arcane and complicated. I don’t mean dumb it down necessarily, but sometimes that may include removing or re-writing things.

I do like the 3 team concept, but I think it should be more - 4th edition rules update for Birthright team, a holding/realm team, and a war team. The rules update most likely has to be started first, and should probably include a sub-team for Bloodlines, that will also work heavily with the holding/realm team. The bloodline team should be more concerned about fitting into 4th edition while keeping in mind domain concerns. The war team should likely be fairly small, and I’d guess it would be more of a review of the current battle system for ease-of-use, 4e battle magic testing/conversion, and then (probably the bulk of the work) packaging and electronic creation of all units/maps/etc. Crap, there really needs to be a 4th team eventually - the Atlas/Lore/Adventure conversion team.

I would furthermore like to see each team/segment able to be distributed as plugins for the core rules. By that, I mean if someone downloaded the core Birthright rules, they would get the core stuff for adventuring plus the bloodline rules (flavor, cultural, and a general atlas and realm description (with none of the provincial info or other such stuff). If the DM wanted to add our realm/domain rules (after the PC’s decide they want more than simply running divine-powered PCs), he could simply download it and plug it in. If they went to war, and he decided 4e mechanics wern’t cutting it, bam - download the battle system. The Atlas would likely be a component as well, although I’m not sure how to handle this since it’s spanned over 4 books in the 2e rules. Converted Adventures would follow, new adventures, new books, etc. I’m not saying we don’t need a large core book with everything (we certainly do), I’m just saying that the setting may find more popularity if there was an option that did not include a daunting book of epic size with all of these new rules. I realize there is a chapter option (currently) and that a DM can pick and choose rules of course, but how many people will simply download it from gleemax or such thinking it sounds cool, take a glance, go “whoa”, and then deleted it? Breaking things apart may help prevent that. Likewise, being able to insert a few bits into people’s games (ie the realm or war rules) may result in generating more interest in the actual setting. If your DM suddenly put in realm management into the Forgotten Realms campaign you are running - and you’re crazy over finally having rules for being a king, conquering, and raising armies - how interested might you be in the world it all originated in, that integrates it at every level?

Anyways, just spitting out ideas.

While I recognise that more complicated rules may deter some people, simple does not necessarily equal best. A consistent detailed ruleset actually reduces the DM’s work over a campaign, albeit at the cost of a steeper initial learning curve. The less detailed we make the rules, the more need there is for a DM to wing it on decisions and arbitrations - the high number of house rules (1 set per campaign ?) suggests that most DM’s think that the existing system is too simple…

  1. By preference for the holdings I would:

1.1. Offer a kiddies option: realms have a wealth level of, say, 1-5 with no need to track exact income and expenditure.

1.2. Offer a standard option: realms have income as the BRCS modified to a decimal system with simplified RP collection for guilds, revert courts to a version similar to 2e to simplify speed up.

1.3. Offer a more detailed version: the full monty with seasonal income mods, spring and autumn war mods, additional holdings such as manors, ‘shadow holdings’, parliaments, 3e courts, etc, etc. Each of these should ideally be discrete so that it can be used/ignored as was found convenient.

I would like to see a single page listing all domain action and marking them as possible by adventure/court/full etc actions - but that’s not hard to add.

I’d also like examples. Such as “Bob decides that Lord Boeruine will no longer tolerate the provocations of the Thane of Talinie, he decides to…” to show how the mechanics flow from the desired roleplaying and what sort of things would be represented by diplomacy, decree, contest, occupation and pillage actions - and why each is different.

I have tried setting pages up on the wiki for people to add to but very few people have posted :frowning:

  1. Similarly for bloodlines.
    2.1. You pick powers as feats, bloodline score tracks the number of feats or is a domain thing only - or whatever ase mechanic 4e uses for ability creep.

2.2. Keep scion as a class but tie it more to the number of powers - so the Gorgon winds up needing 10 levels or so for all his powers, or can only use some of them a day. Powers become a mechanic similar to spells under this system.

2.3. Bloodline score is tracked normally, powers are split out from the standard 4e power system on the understanding that if a player does not have a bloodline then they get some compensation. (Geeman has a gp equivalent system that looks good, others might use xp / additional powers)

It should be remembered that although dropping the IQ minimum in 3e did broaden the game’s appeal, BR in particular seems to have attracted the DM’s more interested in plot, story, politics etc than just hack ‘n’ slash and that tended to mean the ones with some nous. As the DM is the only one who needs to know all the rules they are the one we market to - so campaign richness and consistency is key.

I would think that a “BR 101” might be helpful - more of a walk through the book explaining each chapter and the purpose behind it. Similarly with the rues why some act as they do - house rules often go wrong because they ‘fix’ a mechanic that is actually intended to restrain a specified activity.

I’d like to see a lot more guidance on playing a diplomatic game, possible adventures linking realm and individual action, realm interaction, etc.

I’d note that the wiki is deliberately set up in bite sized pieces to help people navigate, pick and choose, etc. Most new gamers are probably able to get internet connection now - and we have a forum which is happy (some of us anyway) to answer questions, explain, etc, etc. That means that we can keep it more detailed if we want as long as we give directions for people to come here - and possibly add a ‘sage advice’ board for newbies that want to ask questions but get put off by some of the volume on the other boards.

If the OGL goes away, this will hurt many who have products using it… So that quote is a bit of hope for the future of my product!!

RiTz21

Hiya.

The 3.x OGL can not “go away”. It’s forever. In 100 years, you could still be using it to produce stuff. Now, a 4e OGL…that’s a different story. :slight_smile:

In principle, the conversion to 4.0 was to prepare to try to sell the online gaming concept, where pen and paper games are eventually eliminated for an entirely online, fee-based gaming system. The success initially of Everquest and more obviously World of Warcraft has turned Hasbro and it’s subsidiary WOTC from the traditional gaming community as a business. The fact is, 4.0 is a step in converting gamers to an entirely online community, where all materials and content will generate revenue for Hasbro.

Reality is, companies exist to make money. And to make money, you have to either keep offering new content, or force people to buy an all new product line. I just simply refuse after the massive investment in 3.5 materials and books to consider a new conversion to 4.0, even if they decide to bring back Birthright as an active official WOTC campaign setting. I have other things to do with my money (stocks, a new Harley, a house, etc) than to support Hasbro corporate profits with yet ANOTHER edition.

I laud you all for your efforts to make Birthright 3.5 possible. If I had a chance to see the initial 3.0 rules from ‘back in the day’ and the current 3.5 rules you are developing (.rar format? I never heard of it before tonight!) I might start a new campaign based on Birthright again for a new generation of gamers. I might also consider taking a shot at developing something for 3.5 myself.

But spending more money just to start D&D 4.0? Even if it means Birthright comes back to an active system? I’d sooner sell my dice on Ebay as ballast and take up oragami with my old character sheets and books.

Don’t mind the rant, the rave, it’s what happens when I get decaf instead of high-test!

Wizards’ new branch of lawyers HATE the OGL and everything it stands for.

Elton

There are two competing models and both of them are on-line models. One is the community commons type of model where ownership is kept to a minimum because copy write prevents development. The other model is the on-line gaming model. However, whether the lawyers know it or not (and why should lawyers know how gaming works) what you are paying for in an on-line gaming world isn’t the creative content, its the infrastructure required to keep the gaming experience on-line. The OGL was lost cost, low risk, which is the only way gaming companies have ever made any money. Shifting from that model to the on-line gaming model means a high risk, high cost model. That means as soon as the next big thing comes along, the whole business will decline to irrelevance. Maybe Hasbro will have made bad all of their risk capital, and maybe they will have made a bucket of money before the game falls into irrelevance.

Star Wars Galaxies, which had the branding of Star Wars to boost interest, got up as high as 250,000 subscribers in its third quarter after release, but now is running at half that, and active players number 20,000. While the business model is only interested in subscribers, people only subscribe and play infrequently while they await the next big thing, then they move their subscription dollars away and actively play somewhere else.

Its also worth noting that the MMORPG field is much more crowded now than it was in 2004. For D&D to thing about putting all of its eggs into that basket is to go from being the very big fish in the table top gaming world, to being just one of many along side established players like Everquest, Worlds of Warcraft, and now Vanguard. Does Hasbro really want to take on Sony Online Entertainment?

If Hasbro would seriously consider abandoning their dominance of one market segment into order to climb into a crowded field, then they are violating one of the great principles of successful businesses: “First, Second, or get out”.

Generally only the top two companies in a market segment make any money. Everyone else is basically breaking even, or loosing money. This becomes more and more true the longer term you look. So, if Hasbro seriously thinks they can abandon table top and go for the lure of on-line gaming, they will either be spectacularly successful, or they will fail bigger than Philip Morris did when they acquired 7-UP. On-line is high cost, high risk.

If the people making the decisions have any sense, they’ll stick with the low cost, low risk model of distributed content (OGL distributes risk) and stay in the market where they are the undisputed giant.

couple of points:

  1. You can’t legally own a role playing mechanic, you can legally own the presentation. The OGL is the crux of that. They want you using their materials because they know that sells their book. A D20 mechanic isn’t legally protected but using any of their material is. Thus the whole OGL was a big attempt to make people think they they could avoid lots of legal hassles and make money by using and alluding to using wotc materials. That made the OGL brilliant for wotc. IT made alot of other publishers money. But live by the OGL die by the OGL. WotC can yank it anytime and yes you can make a d20 mechanic but you can’t touch any of the wotc presentation.

  2. WotC doesn’t want the world of warcraft world yet. What they want is that monthly income for paid table top content. They need a reason to make you pay a monthy fee and pen and paper doesn’t cut it so they’ve opted for electronic “enhancements”.

The big thing will be to see how many fans want “enhancements” and how many think it’s a waste of money. If this gamble tanks its bad for pen and paper rpgs , of course from a sells standpoint right now it can’t get any worse. If the trend continues gaming stores will have to rely on metal minis to pay the bills, because rpgs aren’t selling out of game stores at all.

Well, they can remove the OGL from the website, but I thought the whole idea was that it was a perpetual license.

actually according to monte cook’s website WotC can’t yank the OGL so I may be mistaken.