Alignment (Again?!)

Dungeons & Dragons MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999
1

At 01:58 AM 10/7/98 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:
>
> On the GS in specific: they might not have started off as overtly Evil.
>Defense of your people is not evil by any measure, so when they were
>fighting and slaying invading human warriors, they were firmly in the right.
>When they found that not enough, and started slaughtering those who weren’t
>a threat to them (like villagers and tradesmen), in an effort to drive
>humanity away, they became evil.

I think everyone is taking this just a little to serious. But this part
did catch my eye. It caught my eye because it reminded me of the actions
of some Native Americans in the United States. I don’t know how everything
can be so cut-n-dry because I don’t see it that way. A few Native
Americans slaughtered innocences as white men took their lands and
destroyed their tribes. I don’t think it was a good act but it was one
born out of desperation and inability to find a way to work with them. In
the end, a greater evil was done to them. I see the Sidhelien situation to
be very similiar and the gheallie Sidhe to be a reaction to the lies,
betrayals, theft of their land, and death they’ve recieved. Its a war
between humans and elves. Evil touches every side in war. Victors write
the history so we’ll just have to wait and see what they say about the
gheallie Sidhe.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

2

I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
good old friend alignment. Now don’t think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?

You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the Japanese bad
(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest of the
Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US kill millions
of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a civilized war
(I know they weren’t weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just my 2 ep.

  • -Andrew
3

At 03:38 PM 10/6/98 -0400, The Olesens wrote:
>
>I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.

This is a quote I picked up off the Mystara list made by Frank Mentzer. I
thought some might find it interesting on the subject.

4

> I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
> good old friend alignment. Now don’t think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
> gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
> You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
> Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans devastated

I think we already touched on this topic a bit..some people (me being one
of them) think that no matter what the reason, and “evil” act is an “evil”
act. Kinda like them Christians using square bullets on the
heathens..just because somehting is acceptable at the time or for a good
reason doesn’t make the act, or by extension, the person, and less evil
for doing it.

Sean

5

>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don’t think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
just and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren’t weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>-Andrew

Not to mention the priests helping hands during the imperialism LOL
Hey, the King of Belgium cut off hands in Congo with the priests
blessings. Yet, priests were still viewed upon as ‘good’.

Siebharrin

6
  • -----Original Message-----
    From: The Olesens
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:18 PM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignment (Again?!)

>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don’t think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren’t weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>
Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
that I’ll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
well have a good alignment and view their acts as “righteous
judgement”–much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
exterminating a gnoll war camp. Go ahead and make them good or neutral.
I think aligning oneself with a political group (like the Gheallie Sidhe
or a nation, etc.) does not preclude any particular alignment. It all
depends on what the character’s perspective and experience in life is.

Hope this helps!

Ben

7

The Olesons (Andrew) wrote,

>Now don’t think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?

You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans
devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad (evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed
many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires.
Or did the US kill millions of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because
they were too weak to fight a civilized war (I know they weren’t weak). I
know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point is, good and
evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.<

OK, first, the Japanese had no intention of sharing their technology and
prosperity with anyone. They wanted more slaves to fuel their domestic
prosperity and cared very little for what it cost any other peoples in
wealth or lives. Was every single Japanese person completely corrupt because
of this? No. But there was a breakdown in the morality of the people in
charge of their nation, and as such, their government ordered very many Evil
acts, and the people who carried those acts out were Evil.
Start there, and get any ideas of a benevolent expansion out the way to
start.
Second, addressing this issue of human betrayal and such. Let us say that
someone here had relatives who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during
WWII. Let us say that person takes issue with what you wrote. Since you are
“obviously” Evil to even think of writing about Japan’s intentions in a good
light, obviously that person is perfectly justified in heading on over and
raping your wife and cutting your children into little pieces. In fact,
while they are having such a good time, they can head on over to your
brother’s house and do the same with his family. And your sister’s. And all
your neighbor’s, because hey, if they weren’t as bad (Evil) as you, they
wouldn’t live next to you right?
If you now understand why the Gheallie Sidhe is mostly Evil, and why POV has
nothing to with Good and Evil then you understand. If not, I suggest
counseling quickly before you begin acting on such beliefs.
I will also repeat for those who don’t get it, that good and bad are ALWAYS
dependant upon POV. Those two are completely different from Good and Evil
however. Someone can want something that is bad for me without being Evil.
Someone can want something good for me without being Good.
Now note, as I mentioned above, the Gheallie Sidhe is MOSTLY Evil. No doubt
some members act to stop human encroachments without commiting atrocities of
one stripe or another in the process. There has to be at least one anyway.
But for me to walk outside tomorrow and murder a person of German descent
because I am Jewish and Hitler was German and from my POV… is wrong
morally and therefore Evil.
Indeed, thinking about it further, what you have is a breakdown in logic.
You are assuming:
Human A = Evil.
Human A = All Humans.
All Humans = Evil.
The second is a false assumption leading to a false conclusion. And, “But
that’s what I believe” is not an excuse, or an explanation. At best it is a
mental disorder. (Sociopath or psychopath.) It is still Evil even then.

Samwise
(Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone’s “POV” is
extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
“just” a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven’t acted upon them yet.
I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it’s not.)

8

From: The Olesens
>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don’t think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
I said yes, before, during, and after thinking about it, thanks (Since
you specified).

>Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right?
You could make a case for those specific humans that killed helpless
elflings and betrayed alliances as being evil. That is not generalizable to
humanity as a whole, this is a blatant use of induction (generalizing to a
whole from some specific instances), which led to prejudice, bigotry, and
then attempted genocide on the part of the GS, and is not logically
supportable by any proof. This is historically the cause of much bigotry in
real life, and is just as illogical no matter whether used in a fantasy
setting or against some group of people in real life, I’ll let you fill in
your own examples.

>But who defines good and evil?
Good and evil are absolute, they don’t need to be defined, just like lying
vs telling the truth, the truth is not relative, neither is Good and Evil.

>There are such things as just and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires.
This is what they did…

> Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest
of the
>Pacific?
That is the spin they tried to put on it. The reasons they tried to explain
it with don’t matter, the actions speak for themselves.

>I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.
No, they are not. Someone may perceive something Evil as a “good”
thing, but that doesn’t make it good, that makes them, at least disturbed,
if not downright Evil themselves. The same goes for a society. Every
society probably would like to see itself as “good”, but on an absolute
scale, there have been some downright despicable, Evil groups of people
floating around.
On the GS in specific: they might not have started off as overtly Evil.
Defense of your people is not evil by any measure, so when they were
fighting and slaying invading human warriors, they were firmly in the right.
When they found that not enough, and started slaughtering those who weren’t
a threat to them (like villagers and tradesmen), in an effort to drive
humanity away, they became evil.
So, there might be a good elf or two in the GS. But, they will probably
not remain in it long, because the slaughter of innocent people will be
pretty repulsive to them. The only way I could see a good elf remaining in
it long term was if he was trying to reform it into more of a warrior group
than a ravening pack of bandits.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

9

Galwylin wrote,

>It caught my eye because it reminded me of the actions
of some Native Americans in the United States. I don’t know how everything
can be so cut-n-dry because I don’t see it that way. A few Native
Americans slaughtered innocences as white men took their lands and
destroyed their tribes. I don’t think it was a good act but it was one
born out of desperation and inability to find a way to work with them. In
the end, a greater evil was done to them. I see the Sidhelien situation to
be very similiar and the gheallie Sidhe to be a reaction to the lies,
betrayals, theft of their land, and death they’ve recieved. Its a war
between humans and elves. Evil touches every side in war.<

Nietzsche wrote,

“When fighting monsters, one beware lesta monster one become. And when
looking in to the Abyss, be careful because the Abyss looks also into you.”

Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours, it
is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?
OK, so a person who has been abused as a child grows up to be a child
molestor. Your Uncle’s neighbor was abused as a child. Therefore, it is OK
for me to kill you, because a relative of yours lives next to a person, who
suffered the same as this other guy, who became an Evil piece of filth.
Wow, cool. Hey, By those standards, I could go out and kill just about
anyone and still be a Good and righteous person.
Have I yet made it clear that this is ridiculous and wrong?
Perhaps this will help,
NEWSFLASH!
Bombing of Hirshoima and Nagasaki were Evil!
Destruction of cities by aerial bombing violated treaties and constituted a
War Crime!
The slaughter of millions of Americans by the United States Government was
genocidal and Evil!
The internment of citizens of japanese descent in the United States during
WWII was Evil!
I don’t give a flip who rights the freaking history, Evil is still Evil.
Writing such lies is someone else’s crime. Believing them would be mine.

Samwise

10

BenandAmy (xanadu@pdq.net) wrote:

  • ->> Yes they do do evil things but for a ‘good’ cause. After all, the
    humans
  • -> devastated
  • ->> several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
  • -> betrayed the
  • ->> elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then
    humanity
  • -> as a whole is
  • ->> evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
    just
  • -> and unjust
  • ->> causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View).
  • -> Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
  • -> that I’ll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
  • -> well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
  • -> judgement"–much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
  • -> exterminating a gnoll war camp.

One solution about the alignment could be to divide it into subgroups as eg.
“they-alignment”, “we-alignment” and “I-alignment”. So the “elves” could be
they-alignment: NE, we-alignment: LG. But as every change to rules does this
demand alot of chnges on other stuff as Magical items/spells which changes
alignemnts (which alignment will they affect and how).

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL1: http://home.bip.net/trizt/
ICQ# : 13696780 URL2: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel:
#Opers
MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317

OS : AmigaOS 3.1 / openBSD 2.3 CPU: PPC603e/160Mhz & MC68040/25Mhz

11

At 12:00 PM 10/7/98 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours, it
>is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
>realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?

No, that’s not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written. At the
time of World War II, the United States didn’t think it was evil to move
Japanese-Americans into camps. Certainly, the Japanese-Americans did. But
many times, its only when you can afford to look back and see the evil that
has been committed. And not by evil people. In terms of the current
events of Cerilia, I wouldn’t say the elves involved in gheallie Sidhe are
evil. You keep trying to bring this down to an individual level and its
not. Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
completely good or evil that they are clear to see. Alignments in AD&D are
based on actions. The gheallie Sidhe is an action that hasn’t been
completed yet. Taken on an individual basis, the gheallie Sidhe is evil.
If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural view.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

12

Samuel Weiss wrote:

> (Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
> personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone’s “POV” is
> extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
> “just” a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
> these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven’t acted upon them yet.
> I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it’s not.)

Is it just me or does anybody else out there think this kind of casual disregard
for other people’s opinions is EVIL!?! :slight_smile:

Gary

13

You keep trying to bring this down to an individual level and its
not. Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
completely good or evil that they are clear to see. Alignments in AD&D are
based on actions. The gheallie Sidhe is an action that hasn’t been
completed yet. Taken on an individual basis, the gheallie Sidhe is evil.
If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural view.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

>>>>>>>>This is what I meant by the difference between “individual”
alignment and “political” alignment.
Thanx Galwylin.

14

Galwylin wrote,

>No, that’s not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written.<

Stuff and nonsense. Next you will be claiming, or rather denying, that this
also means until there has been a trial and a guilty verdict, no crime has
been comitted.

>Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
completely good or evil that they are clear to see.<

Actually, it can be quite easy to judge a culture Good or Evil, and much
harder to judge an individual. If on person hates all of group X because one
member of group X once attacjed them it is somewhat understandable. If all
members of culture Y hate all members of group X because some jackoff with a
silly mustache tells them it is OK to, then you have a severe disfunction
that goes well beyond the individual, and is one serious clue that a society
is totally out of whack.
Further, if your point is valid, it should apply onboth the small scale as
well as the large. If it is wrong for an individual to take savage,
sickening personal revenge on all and sundry based on warped logic, and
personal slights, it is of course all right for his culture to do so.
Similarly, if a culture ordains genocide, how will it be able to deny an
individual their “right” to commit mass murder on any sort of moral grounds?
No, it is still a question of whether you think it OK for any person or
group to decide inidividually or en masse to commit acts of murder and other
atrocities and then justify their actions some third party annoyed them
first.

>If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural
view.<

Not in the least. It means it was beneficial to the Elves. It would be Evil
when it was done, it would be Evil after it was finished.
Once again, so if i head on out and commit genocide, because it helps my
people in the long run, it was really Good all along? Guess what, that was
Pol Pot’s argument for slaughtering his own people. And Mao Tse Tung’s.
And while Pol Pot was overthrown and histroy now records the Killing Fields
as Evil, the Chinese Government refuses to accept Mao’s part in the Cultural
Revolution to this day. So other psychopaths and dictators think you
are/were a great guy. Some recommendation.

Kariu wrote,

>It’s war…an elf can’t afford to be nice…because to an immortal
elf…that 15 years it takes for a new born to pick up an axe…is just a
few minutes or hours…to you and me…<

See that part where you say, “can’t afford to be nice”? I guess that means
they are Evil huh?

Samwise

15

At 12:23 AM 10/8/98 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>Galwylin wrote,
>
>>No, that’s not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
>will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written.<
>
>Stuff and nonsense. Next you will be claiming, or rather denying, that this
>also means until there has been a trial and a guilty verdict, no crime has
>been comitted.

Hello? Do you even read what you respond to?? See that word up there that
starts with an ‘r’? That’s r-e-c-o-g-n-z-e-d. One of the meanings is to
admit a knowledge of.

>>Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
>completely good or evil that they are clear to see.<
>
>Actually, it can be quite easy to judge a culture Good or Evil, and much
>harder to judge an individual.

Can you name one culture that is completely good? I’ve seen you name some
that were evil so if its so simple, name the other side.

>Similarly, if a culture ordains genocide, how will it be able to deny an
>individual their “right” to commit mass murder on any sort of moral grounds?

You’re talking logic and logic is not something that is normally associated
with human (or human like) cultures. It doesn’t matter if the culture
condones genocide if they say killing is wrong on an individual scale.
Look at the history of the church that preached killing is a sin then
sanctified the Crusades. If killing is condemned on an individual level
then that should be true on the cultural one as well according to you. But
human groups don’t operate like that. And I’m not ready to admit that
every institution that has existed is evil because it didn’t follow your
logic.

>>If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
>record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural
>view.<
>
>Not in the least. It means it was beneficial to the Elves. It would be Evil
>when it was done, it would be Evil after it was finished.

It doesn’t matter what it is. Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
was evil but the United States aren’t because they did it. Some believe it
was good because it saved more lives that might have been lost had the war
continued. So in that sense, yes, the elves could see the gheallie Sidhe
as good because it saves their culture from extinction.

>Once again, so if i head on out and commit genocide, because it helps my
>people in the long run, it was really Good all along?

Are we talking about genocide here? Is the gheallie Sidhe genocide or a
movement to push humans out of Cerilia. Do the elves have plans to rid the
planet of humans?

>Kariu wrote,
>
>>It’s war…an elf can’t afford to be nice…because to an immortal
>elf…that 15 years it takes for a new born to pick up an axe…is just a
>few minutes or hours…to you and me…<
>
>See that part where you say, “can’t afford to be nice”? I guess that means
>they are Evil huh?

No. It means they recognize that necessary evils are needed sometimes.
Its evil to kill others but its also evil to allow your culture to die
because won’t defend it. When you’re surrounded by evil, all you can do is
evil.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

16

>Samuel Weiss wrote:
>Galwylin wrote,
>
>>No, that’s not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
>will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written.<
>
>Stuff and nonsense. Next you will be claiming, or rather denying, that this
>also means until there has been a trial and a guilty verdict, no crime has
>been comitted.

Hello? Do you even read what you respond to?? See that word up there that
starts with an ‘r’? That’s r-e-c-o-g-n-z-e-d. One of the meanings is to
admit a knowledge of.<

Hello, do you even think about what you are writing before you write it?
Obviously you give very little thought to some of the things you put down
otherwise you wouldn’t. You see, admiting a knowledge of also implies
admitting to oneself that something is wrong. But since this philosphy of
nothing ever being wrong because one person thinks it might be right is what
keeps being pushed to deny that anything might be Evil, I guess that concept
is beyond you.

>Can you name one culture that is completely good? I’ve seen you name some
that were evil so if its so simple, name the other side.<

Another generally simple concept that seems to have eluded you is that while
Evil is easy for humans to achieve, Good is not. And perhaps humanity has
never achieved such a state. I am only familiar enough with European
cultures to know if any have achieved a state of Good, and none come to
mind. At best, they manage to be lawful Neutral (or the equivalent).

>It doesn’t matter if the culture condones genocide if they say killing is
wrong on an individual scale.<

Yes it does. It is called “hypocrisy”. “It is OK for us to do this to them,
or we leaders to tell you do something, but none of you can make such
decisions on your own.”

>Look at the history of the church that preached killing is a sin then
sanctified the Crusades.<

And the Church at that ti me was quite venal, and more than a little Evil.

> If killing is condemned on an individual level then that should be true
on the cultural one as well according to you.<

And according to that church mentioned above. But hey, let’s ignore that
right now so no facts will interfere.

>But human groups don’t operate like that.<

Yes, but we aspire to. And that is what we call Good.

>And I’m not ready to admit that every institution that has existed is evil
because it didn’t follow your logic.<

Well seeing as you wish to absolve everyone of guilt forever because you
feel unfit to pass judgement on them, I will also allow you not to pass
judgemnet on me and completely ignore this violation you have commited of
your sacred precepts. Feel free not to feel guilty for judging me when you
can not condemn mass murderers.
I always find it very interesting that those who can not bring themselves to
call anything Evil always find it so easy to tell me I must be wrong. Very
baffling.

>When you’re surrounded by evil, all you can do is evil.<

But earlier you denied this,

>>Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours,
it
>is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
>realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?

No, that’s not my point. <

But that is what you have just said yet again. maybe you don’t believe this,
but it is what you keep writing. So either start reading what you write and
considering the implications first, or deal with being taken at face value.
If someone finds me to be a pompous moralistic ass, I consider that a
compliment in comparison to what you are showing yourself to be.
I repeat, you can pass judgement on me, but not on murderers. Wow.

Samwise

17

Greetings to All,
I have been following the various discussions for some
days now. The alignment debate is interesting, if not somewhat tense at times.
I admit ot being puzzled, though, by some of the various points of view.
It seems to me there are differing definitions of evil
and culture here, and an assumption by some that seems, to me, be in error.
This is creating conflict in the current debate, perhaps unnecessarily so. At
this point, I would like to point out that I am not trying to offend or insult
anyone. This is an open forum, and I am throwing in my half-pence’s worth.
The assumption that I am referring to is that one can
judge any and all cultures by her/his own standards. This, to me, is
incorrect. Diversity is present here, whether in real life or fantasy like BR,
and there is no universal truth, no omnipotent reality that supercedes all. We
are insiders who are trying to be on the outside speaking about those who are
inside. People may believe otherwise, but there are others who will believe
differently, whether it be philosophy, religion, science, or whatever else
there may be. That is the nature of humanity, and in fantasy, I believe that
also applies, esp. because of the sheer number of races involved.
This does not mean we cannot discuss these things,
just that perspective must be maintained, for “reality” (for lack of a better
word) is perceived differently by each and every person. That is what makes us
individuals.
This is my input for now, and I hope no one takes this
wrong, as I am a novice to all this sort of thing.
Til later, all enjoy what you can.
Shadewu
lf

18

At 02:56 AM 10/8/98 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Yes it does. It is called “hypocrisy”. “It is OK for us to do this to them,
>or we leaders to tell you do something, but none of you can make such
>decisions on your own.”

Exactly! Something human history is full of. Has always been and
apparently always will.

>Well seeing as you wish to absolve everyone of guilt forever because you
>feel unfit to pass judgement on them, I will also allow you not to pass
>judgemnet on me and completely ignore this violation you have commited of
>your sacred precepts. Feel free not to feel guilty for judging me when you
>can not condemn mass murderers.

This is where you’re wrong. I have no sacred precepts. I didn’t enter
this debate believing my view was right as you have.

>If someone finds me to be a pompous moralistic ass, I consider that a
>compliment in comparison to what you are showing yourself to be.
>I repeat, you can pass judgement on me, but not on murderers. Wow.

No one’s passing judgement on you. Why you wish to take on this role of a
victim, I don’t know. Because I don’t believe its the absolute example of
evil for an individual, group, or culture to fight against extinction any
way they have to is a far assumption that murderers can’t be judged.
That’s why our courts believe that self-defense is a proper excuse for
murder. Someone is still dead, and someone still did it but the
circumstances surrounding it makes it not absolute evil. You absolute view
would condemn one of the poor victims of Ted Bundy had they actually killed
him trying to escape. My view of the gheallie Sidhe is exactly the same as
that of a court looking at someone on trial for killing in self-defense.
So far, you’ve not shown me that is not true. In fact, you have tried to
impose a view that is unchanging to what this discussion is about. That
being the examination of the gheallie Sidhe and if its good or evil. My
views are not absolute and are subject to change as the subject recieves
more discussion. Since I’ve been in ‘discussions’ with you before,
moralistic isn’t a term I’d use to describe you but the rest fits rather
well. Until you decide you want a discussion and not a soapbox, I’ll
address you no longer on this.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

19

At 03:30 AM 10/8/98 EDT, Shadewulf@aol.com wrote:
>
> This does not mean we cannot discuss these things,
>just that perspective must be maintained, for “reality” (for lack of a better
>word) is perceived differently by each and every person. That is what
makes us
>individuals.
> This is my input for now, and I hope no one takes
this
>wrong, as I am a novice to all this sort of thing.

I certainly don’t take it wrong. Don’t let being a novice deter you from
adding to it. I would certainly like more views on it. The discussion on
Haelyn allowing evil priests into his clergy and the gheallie Sidhe shows
that Birthright is and can be a very adult setting where answers aren’t so
easily found. Some very complex concepts can enter into it. When I think
of maturity in a setting, this is my idea of it. Not something superficial
like demons.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

20

From: Galwylin
>Are we talking about genocide here? Is the gheallie Sidhe genocide or a
>movement to push humans out of Cerilia. Do the elves have plans to rid the
>planet of humans?
>
The ghealliea sidhe kills humans because they are human. They might take
a special pleasure in killing armed humans roaming their territory, but they
also roam far and wide, inside their kingdoms and out, killing innocent
people. They aren’t trying to push the humans anywhere, they just want to
kill them off.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu