Balancing Bloodline.

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Ive been mulling something over for a few weeks now and Im curious what

folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

character class system on the whole–and still be balanced by being

factored into the character`s overall equipment.

Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

through that system.

Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of “equipment” on

his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

then be compared to the amount of money that is “standard” for such a

character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.

No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate “level”

in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

than what it probably is best described as–something extraneous to the

character class system itself.

Thoughts?

Gary

2

Originally posted by geeman@Feb 22 2004, 05:10 AM
[b] Ive been mulling something over for a few weeks now and Im curious what

folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

character class system on the whole–and still be balanced by being

factored into the character`s overall equipment.

Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

through that system.

Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of “equipment” on

his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

then be compared to the amount of money that is “standard” for such a

character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.

No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate “level”

in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

than what it probably is best described as–something extraneous to the

character class system itself.

Thoughts?

Gary

[/b]

Gary,

This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the community and voted on back in May. Revisiting things definitely keeps things form moving forward IMO.

3

At 02:09 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put

>together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the

>community and voted on back in May.

Unless there were some changes to that document that I never saw this

suggestion is actually quite different from Option B (or any of the

proposals, all of ) which used XP to “pay” for bloodline either as a

character class or through ECL. XP and ECL are not directly related to the

cost of a bloodline in this suggestion. There are no XP costs, and no

ECL. Nobody “earns” their blood abilities. Characters could start out at

1st level with any bloodline AND all the blood abilities from that bloodline.

This suggestion would just be a way of computing that character`s EL with a

bloodline. It might equate to giving a 1st level character a powerful set

of magic items. He doesn`t have to earn those items retroactively after

character generation. The DM does, however, have some tools to recognize

that character`s abilities relative to a commoner.

Gary

4

Originally posted by geeman
Ive been mulling something over for a few weeks now and Im curious what
folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc.

Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first level (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :smiley:

For those, who don’t know it: It’s a feat presented in the “Book of Exalted Deeds” and a must for nearly every monk (If they would exist :stuck_out_tongue: ) and many druids of good alignment…

5

I don’t know about you, but I don’t let my characters just go out and buy magical items.

6

> Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this

> manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment

> at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this

> character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first level (If

> human, otherwise at 3rd). :smiley:

>

> For those, who don’t know it: It’s a feat presented in the “Book

> of Exalted Deeds” and a must for nearly every monk (If they would

> exist :stuck_out_tongue: ) and many druids of good alignment…

I dont know what that feat is, but it doesnt sound particularly

appropriate for scions in Birthright… especially those of a Great

bloodline…

–Lord Rahvin

7

At 12:45 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, ecliptic wrote:

> I dont know about you, but I dont let my characters just go out and

> buy magical items.

Actually, I think the implication there was that he would sell all his

equipment or otherwise dispose of it. Buying magic items in BR is its own

little subtopic in which we have the relative scarcity of magic items in

the setting juxtaposed with the rules for regent accepting magic items in

lieu of monetary taxes, so it doesn`t really matter if character can just

go out and buy magical items or not.

BUT! Before we delve too far into that kind of thing, I don`t know if it

would really be an issue for players to give up their magic items in order

to balance their bloodlines. Under the proposed rules they could still

keep their inventory–they could even add to it beyond what is normal for

characters of their level. That increased inventory would just be factored

into their EL (not ECL) for the purpose of determining the CR and number of

the creatures they encounter in adventures. That`s it. A 10th level

character with the inventory of a 14th level character (150,000gp) would be

considered EL 12. He doesnt have to spend XP to get that, he doesnt have

to take levels in a character class or an ECL, he doesn`t have to do

anything at all. The DM just uses that EL to determine encounters and

awards at the adventure level. That`s it.

There`s not any real need that I can see for players to forego magic items

in order to balance their inventory values with their character

level. They would get lower XP awards in order to compensate for their

increased power–kind of like having a system for computing the XP awards

for the relative ease of encounters of a 1st level character with a +5

vorpal sword, and if one wanted to increase the amount of awards then he

could get rid of magic items, but then he`d be less efficient at

accomplishing encounters and would complete fewer of them, so it wouldn`t

be a very effective strategy for earning XP.

Gary

8

At 11:37 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, Ariadne wrote:

>Naturally this character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first level

>(If human, otherwise at 3rd). :smiley:

If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

I`ve got it… What are the benes?

G

9

Gary is correct to limit his analysis to xp awards from encounters, because

it would be most accurate in that role. I would be quite cautious using

such a calculation to assign encounters, while I would be quite content

using such a calculation to award xp.

Take the example of the 1st level character with the +5 vorpal sword. I

good example for my purpose here. If I have an opponant who can do nothing

more stuning than disarm the character, I have suddenly reduced this

character to a 1st level character. If I had assumed the ECL of the

character really was 8th level (15th level inventory + 1st level character /

  1. I might have presnted an 8th level encounter, which could much more

easily deprive the character of his weapon.

The example is extream, but it makes a point that should not be lost when

10th level characters have 14th level powers (the point of this thread) or

equipment.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

10

>> Naturally this character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first

>> level

>> (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :smiley:

>

> If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

> I`ve got it… What are the benes?

Women are marginally more impressed when you explain your lack of a car,

house, or job. For birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries you can give

a conceited excuse instead of a present.

Hmm… This feat may be a bit overpowered… Gary, if circumstances

have given you this feat, you may have to suffer an xp penalty that

stunts your development…

–Lord Rahvin

11

OK Gary I see what you mean about this proposal being ‘different’ than Shade/Mark V’s.

The major difference as I see it is that you are not converting the gp value of the equivalent magic item into an exp cost (essentially one step less than their proposal). This however leads to its own internal problems. How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods (bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)

Regents have an essentially unlimited income as far as this goes, with 1 GB roughly equivalent to 2000 gp. Something a non-regent scion doesn’t have.

Doom sent me a home brewed revision of Chapt 2 before I put out the current revision that had a more detailed version of the magic item equivalent exp cost scenario, but I dismissed it based on the results of the poll we ran on the topic. It was the absolutely least favored option. Basically I wasn’t going to propose a revision that reflected the exact opposite of what the polls said ‘the people’ (or at least those that voted) wanted.

12

Originally posted by ecliptic@Feb 23 2004, 12:45 AM
I don’t know about you, but I don’t let my characters just go out and buy magical items.

That’s why it IS the perfect feat (especially for BR, if you ask me). You NEED not! at 20th level your walking stick is a +5 holy quarterstaff…

13

Originally posted by Birthright-L@Feb 23 2004, 01:30 AM

I dont know what that feat is, but it doesnt sound particularly
appropriate for scions in Birthright… especially those of a Great
bloodline…

This feat is pretty easy. You CAN’T get magical items or other things of value (if you get, you have to done them to a good temple or so), but you get several advantages:[ul]- about 10 exalted bonus feats till 20th level (good feats presents in the “book of Exalted deeds”)

  • DR 10/evil
  • Energy resistance 10 (or 15, I forgot) against ALL elements
  • +8 to one ability/+6 to a second/+4 to a third and +2 to a fourth
  • Other useful things like need not to eat and breath
    and, and, and…[/ul]
14

Oh, and naturally not every scion needs to be a regent, even a great blooded

15

irdeggman schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2287

> irdeggman wrote:

> OK Gary I see what you mean about this proposal being different than Shade/Mark V`s.

The major difference as I see it is that you are not converting the gp value of the equivalent magic item into an exp cost (essentially one step less than their proposal). This however leads to its own internal problems. How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods (bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)

Regents have an essentially unlimited income as far as this goes, with 1 GB roughly equivalent to 2000 gp. Something a non-regent scion doesn`t have.

>

>

As I see it the income you refer here to is not the regents income, but

the realms income which is not gp and not the regents.

Only using the FINANCES action (which allows only a limited transfer)

can the realms income transferred into transportable wealth and even

then it´s not the regents money and if he acts as if it were then he may

have to suffer the consequences…

bye

Michael

16

Gary, that idea is mine – and an old one, at that.
I posted it on Friday 2 November 2001 13:54:07 GMT+1 on birthright-l.
Check out the archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A…hright-l&P=R283

17

At 04:22 PM 2/23/2004 +0100, the Falcon wrote:

>Gary, that idea is mine – and an old one, at that.

The Falcon having originated the idea is duly noted.

Gary

18

At 11:40 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley

>on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could

>gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods

>(bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)

In this suggestion bloodlines aren`t gained or paid for by spending

gp. Their presence is just accounted for to balance the character for the

purpose of EL by giving the bloodline a gp value. If a scion committed

bloodtheft (or otherwise increased his bloodline) he wouldn`t then spend gp

to actually use it. His bloodline would just increase, and the gp value of

his inventory would go up by whatever amount the his bloodline score

increased and whatever the value of the blood abilities he gained might

be. There`s no “transaction” involved.

For example, if bloodline score is worth 100gp/point, a minor blood ability

500gp and a major blood ability 1,000gp a scion with a bloodline score of

15 and a minor blood ability would have a 2,000gp bloodline. He doesn`t

spend those gp. It`s just factored into his inventory as a kind of

“virtual” magic item, if you will. If that scion committed bloodtheft on

someone (or a couple people) and gained enough points to bump his bloodline

score up to 20 and increase his minor blood ability to a major blood

ability the value added to his inventory would increase to 3,000gp.

If the total value of his bloodline puts him into a higher bracket than he

would normally have access to (according to Table 5-1 in the DMG) then that

can be used to change his EL for the purpose of determining encounters and

CR awards–but NOT his ECL. There`s no level adjustment requiring XP to be

earned, nor does he actually pay for his bloodline with gp.

>Doom sent me a home brewed revision of Chapt 2 before I put out the

>current revision that had a more detailed version of the magic item

>equivalent exp cost scenario, but I dismissed it based on the results of

>the poll we ran on the topic. It was the absolutely least favored

>option. Basically I wasn`t going to propose a revision that reflected the

exact opposite of what the polls said the people (or at least those that

voted) wanted.

Not having seen that I cant really comment on it, but I dont think this

method has actually been discussed much in the BR community, so the polling

done for the earlier bloodline proposals doesn`t really make much

difference since nobody`s really presented a system yet (other than the

rather vague one described here.)

Gary

19

OK, after there are some of the opinion, taking the “Vow of Poverty” more is a joke than a feat, I’ve looked it up. As I already said, that feat fits perfectly into a low-magic world (like BR), where you have to jump for joy, if you get a +1 dagger or a potion of “cure light wounds” (depending on DM of course)…
Naturally this feat is perfect for any class, that can’t use martial weapons (like monks and druids). It is limited useful for sorcerers, wizards and clerics (sorcerers/ wizards, because they CAN’T use any magical item with that feat and clerics, because they can’t use armor).

Prerequisites: Good alignment, Another exalted feat
Drawbacks: No material possessions, apart from food for one day, ordinary simple weapons and simple clothes. If they get material possession, they have to spend it for good deeds.

Advantages (listed for a human character of 20th level, who took this feat at first level):[ul]· 10 bonus exalted feats
· +8 to one ability score of choice, +6 to another, +4 to a third and +2 to a last
· Energy resistance 15 (fire, electricity, cold, acid and sonic)
· Endure Elements (always active)
· Any weapon (including unarmed strike and natural attack) becomes a +5 weapon
· Weapon counts as magical (naturally) and good for overcoming spell resistance
· Gains +3 to all saves
· Gains +10 to AC, a +3 deflection bonus and a +2 bonus to his natural armor
· Regeneration
· Damage reduction 10/ evil
· True seeing (always actice)
· Freedom of movement (always active)
· Need not to eat, drink and breath
· Immune to detect thoughts, discern lies and any spell, that discerns alignment
· No guarantee, that I haven’t overseen something :D[/ul]
It is to say, that a character ,who has this feat gains all these abilities IN ADDITION to any abilities she gets because of her class and naturally a 20th level character gains the normal +5 bonus to her ability score(s) as well (resulting in a +25 bonus to her ability scores). A character gains not all these abilities at once, but advantages increase if she advances in level (There is a table listed in the “Book of Exalted Deeds” where you can see what you get exactly per level. Btw. that book is a must for any player of a good character, if you ask me). There is NO ECL or something to balance it apart from having no possessions.

OK, now tell me, if some characters don’t trade magical items against that feat. Especially, if the DM is a horror and grants his players a gigantic +1 ring of resistance at 10th character level and doubles XP costs for creating own magical items…

That feat is not really something to laugh at! If you count all bonusses together, you have to shine like a christmas tree in a detect magic spell to get the same.

20

> OK, now tell me, if some characters don’t trade magical items

> against that feat. Especially, if the DM is a horror and grants his

> players a gigantic +1 ring of resistance at 10th character level and

> doubles XP costs for creating own magical items…

>

> That feat is not really something to laugh at! If you count all

> bonusses together, you have to shine like a christmas tree in a detect

> magic spell to get the same.

It is something to laugh at, I`m sorry. It sounds even better than the

“Descendant of the Gods” class writeup my player proposed as a joke.

(At 20th level you exploded on death, making everyone around you a

scion.)

Choosing feats for a campaign setting is not a matter of simply players

finding which books better helps you bypass your DM`s restrictions.

And if a feat is so cool that everyone should take it, or every good

character, or every character within a certain campaign, it certainly

can expect not only criticism but a fair amount of embarrassment…

–Lord Rahvin