birthright-digest V1998 #33

Dungeons & Dragons MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999
1

From: GREEGAN

>Also… has anyone wondered why after so many millenia of society in
>Cerilia the Holding Levels are so low but so easy to increase?(I haven’t
>grasped the whole idea of holdings so I might be using incorrect
>terminology here). And how come the province rating maximums are so low?
I think personally that the continent is just coming off of a period of
war, and is entering a period of regrowth in 551 MR (that is the provided
starting date, right?). Apparently, a whole bunch of regional conflicts
all boiled over at around the same time, so everyone is now sitting around
licking their wounds. It also explains why so many regents die off at the
beginning of a campaign, they died in the war.
The max province ratings are low because the farming techniques used are
medieval/ early renaissance, and can’t support millions upon millions of
people as easily as the chemical fertilizers of today can.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

2

Daniel McSorley wrote:

> From: GREEGAN
>
> >Also… has anyone wondered why after so many millenia of society in
> >Cerilia the Holding Levels are so low but so easy to increase?(I haven’t
> >grasped the whole idea of holdings so I might be using incorrect
> >terminology here). And how come the province rating maximums are so low?
> I think personally that the continent is just coming off of a period of
> war, and is entering a period of regrowth in 551 MR (that is the provided
> starting date, right?). Apparently, a whole bunch of regional conflicts
> all boiled over at around the same time, so everyone is now sitting around
> licking their wounds. It also explains why so many regents die off at the
> beginning of a campaign, they died in the war.
> The max province ratings are low because the farming techniques used are
> medieval/ early renaissance, and can’t support millions upon millions of
> people as easily as the chemical fertilizers of today can.

Another problem is that there is no way in the rules for holdings to go down
aside from them being contested. After creating and ruling up a holding, a
regent can basically ignore it until the day he dies at which point it is
transferred intact to his heir. This isn’t a very realistic situation (there’s
that word again!) but I’m not sure how to come up with a solution that would
fit into the rules and keep everybody happy. Any ideas?

Gary

3

In a message dated 9/15/98 6:57:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

> Another problem is that there is no way in the rules for holdings to go down
> aside from them being contested. After creating and ruling up a holding, a
> regent can basically ignore it until the day he dies at which point it is
> transferred intact to his heir. This isn’t a very realistic situation (
> there’s
> that word again!) but I’m not sure how to come up with a solution that
would
> fit into the rules and keep everybody happy. Any ideas?
>
> Gary
I don’t even have the rules for this game, though I know a lot of them… How
about every decade or so, an upkeep cost must be payed to keep a castle in
tact. Say, half of the origional cost to replace rotten wood, re-paint areas,
replace doors, etc. If it is not payed, the castle begins to break down,
going down 1 level each 10 years until it is considered useless as a castle.
The castle is still the same castle, however, it just has holes, rotting
doors, etc.

4

In a message dated 09-15-1998 5:57:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

> Another problem is that there is no way in the rules for holdings to go down
> aside from them being contested. After creating and ruling up a holding, a
> regent can basically ignore it until the day he dies at which point it is
> transferred intact to his heir. This isn’t a very realistic situation (
> there’s
> that word again!) but I’m not sure how to come up with a solution that
would
> fit into the rules and keep everybody happy. Any ideas?
>
> Gary
>
Actually, I believe you can occupy the province then raise any holdings you
like down to zero. Also, PCs should be very fearful of Contest. One contest
and one Investiture and it’s gone and worse, now completely controlled by the
rival.

Also, I have used natural disasters (plages, droughts, wild fires, rebellions,
storms, and floods. oh yeah, severe monster brigandage) to reduce holding
levels. I typically limit this to only a couple provinces at a time.
Although in war, enemies have often sent one or two cav units scurrying
through the provinces burning everything they can until finally cornered and
slain. It’s a great tactic!

Also, have you thought about “traitors” in the PCs midst? High level
lieutenants can turn coat and cause a whole bunch of holdings to simply reject
their former “ruler”.

One must remember that holdings do not consist of mindless robots, just dying
to do anything the ruler or holder wants. They want to live, free if
possible, as wealthy as possible. And they’ll try to do it (usually) the
easiest way possible. Unless they’re gluttons for punishment, in which case
they become adventurers :wink:

Does that level 6 Guild holding in the forest seem stable for the past couple
years? Whoops, those loggers chopped down one tree too many, and have
released a deadly strain of fungus which had been buried deep in the heart of
the tree for 400 years. Now this disease has wiped out the entire logging
guild before the priests had a chance to respond!! (now a level 0-2 guild
major gold and RP loss–the PC regent had better do something fast!)

Just some ideas,
Dustin Evermore

5

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

> Actually, I believe you can occupy the province then raise any holdings you
> like down to zero. Also, PCs should be very fearful of Contest. One contest
> and one Investiture and it’s gone and worse, now completely controlled by the
> rival.
>
> Also, I have used natural disasters (plages, droughts, wild fires, rebellions,
> storms, and floods. oh yeah, severe monster brigandage) to reduce holding
> levels. I typically limit this to only a couple provinces at a time.
> Although in war, enemies have often sent one or two cav units scurrying
> through the provinces burning everything they can until finally cornered and
> slain. It’s a great tactic!
>
> Also, have you thought about “traitors” in the PCs midst? High level
> lieutenants can turn coat and cause a whole bunch of holdings to simply reject
> their former “ruler”.
>
> One must remember that holdings do not consist of mindless robots, just dying
> to do anything the ruler or holder wants. They want to live, free if
> possible, as wealthy as possible. And they’ll try to do it (usually) the
> easiest way possible. Unless they’re gluttons for punishment, in which case
> they become adventurers :wink:
>
> Does that level 6 Guild holding in the forest seem stable for the past couple
> years? Whoops, those loggers chopped down one tree too many, and have
> released a deadly strain of fungus which had been buried deep in the heart of
> the tree for 400 years. Now this disease has wiped out the entire logging
> guild before the priests had a chance to respond!! (now a level 0-2 guild
> major gold and RP loss–the PC regent had better do something fast!)

These are all really cool suggestions. They work particularly well in my campaign
which has a high emphasis on role-playing over domain actions. Thanks! I will
definately use severa of them.

Gary

6

>In a message dated 9/15/98 6:57:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>GeeMan@linkline.com writes:
>
>> Another problem is that there is no way in the rules for holdings to
go down
>> aside from them being contested. After creating and ruling up a
holding, a
>> regent can basically ignore it until the day he dies at which point
it is
>> transferred intact to his heir. This isn’t a very realistic
situation (
>> there’s
>> that word again!) but I’m not sure how to come up with a solution
that
>would
>> fit into the rules and keep everybody happy. Any ideas?
>>
>> Gary
>I don’t even have the rules for this game, though I know a lot of
them… How
>about every decade or so, an upkeep cost must be payed to keep a castle
in
>tact. Say, half of the origional cost to replace rotten wood, re-paint
areas,
>replace doors, etc. If it is not payed, the castle begins to break
down,
>going down 1 level each 10 years until it is considered useless as a
castle.
>The castle is still the same castle, however, it just has holes,
rotting
>doors, etc.

Actualy, the rules do take this into effect in domain maintenance - each
fortified holding or castle costs 1gb to maintain per turn; if you don’t
pay, the castle/fort in question looses a level.

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7

>> From: GREEGAN
>>
>> >Also… has anyone wondered why after so many millenia of society in
>> >Cerilia the Holding Levels are so low but so easy to increase?(I
haven’t
>> >grasped the whole idea of holdings so I might be using incorrect
>> >terminology here). And how come the province rating maximums are so
low?
>> I think personally that the continent is just coming off of a
period of
>> war, and is entering a period of regrowth in 551 MR (that is the
provided
>> starting date, right?). Apparently, a whole bunch of regional
conflicts
>> all boiled over at around the same time, so everyone is now sitting
around
>> licking their wounds. It also explains why so many regents die off
at the
>> beginning of a campaign, they died in the war.

>Daniel McSorley wrote:
>Another problem is that there is no way in the rules for holdings to go
down
>aside from them being contested. After creating and ruling up a
holding, a
>regent can basically ignore it until the day he dies at which point it
is
>transferred intact to his heir. This isn’t a very realistic situation
(there’s
>that word again!) but I’m not sure how to come up with a solution that
would
>fit into the rules and keep everybody happy. Any ideas?
>
>Gary

Cerilia is a fractious place, and has always had conflicts of one sort
or another to raise & lower population levels. Up until 500 or so years
ago the Anuirean Empire kept Anuire itself stable, but after Michael
Roele’s death the Anuirean states fell to civil war over who would take
the Iron throne (never mind the Gorgon’s generational harvesting every
20 years or so & the occasional plague). That’s a lot of occupy &
pillage actions, raising of levies, etc. Rule actions need to be as
easy as they are, otherwise Cerilia could end up as dead as the shadow
world…
This sort of thing can pile up quickly. Here’s an example taken from a
particularly evil game I’m playing in: In two consecutive turns I
conquered both Thurazor & Dhoesone. Thurazor began suffering from a
plague, which I ended up being blamed for (when times are tough, blame
the conquering regent!). Out of spite I drew levies from Thurazor -
(reducing that realm’s population by one level per provence) - and
over-ran Dhoesone with 18 diseased Goblin levies. The following turn I
discovered that not only had I spread the disease across Dhoesone, but
most of the levies were dieing off. Never mind that I (barely) managed
to contain and halt the contagen & hold on to both countries - the end
result was that I had 19 provences in poor to rebellious conditions,
almost all of which had dropped at least one or more levels. As you can
only rule up a provence once per turn, if I do nothing else I should
(rough estimate) undo the damage done in half a year of strife over two
years of consecutive rule actions (this doesn’t include building up Law
or other holdings, or fixing up loyalty ratings).
This is (admittedly) an extreme example, but I can easly believe enough
of these kinds of events have happened to keep Cerilia’s populations at
the relatively reasonable levels they currently are.

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