Birthright societies and law.

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

I might have some time over christmas away from tv’s and computers as well as work so I might do some writing and I was thinking about maybe doing a bit on the societies around cerilia. I might get some peoples ideas on what they think things would be like in the different cultures.

Anuirians:

A few different systems for which I would try and do a map of an example village or manor etc. Allodial land is freeholdings.

Full feudal system all land is owned by the king, duke etc and all people have certain responsibilities to their lord. The king grants a certain amount of land to a duke a duke grants a certain amount of land to a baron etc.

Strong feudal system most land owned by the king but some allodial land owned by others. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Weak feudal system most of the land is allodial. Freeman are in the majority and there are few serfs. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Rjurik:

Full Udal system - all land is allodial and all men free.

Strong udal system - land is owned by communities and not individuals. Each village, town or tribe has one or more territories which are shared amoung its members and is mostly found amoung sparsley inhabited tribal nations.

weak udal system- most land is free and most people free but small amounts of feudal land and serfs exist as a holdover from the anuirian empire. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Brecht:

Weak feudal - common system with large rich land holders and few small independent holders.

weak feudal - most land held by small holders.

Full feudal/strong feudal - danigau

may be other feaudal systems.

Vos:

Semi-Feudal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour in place of serfs and largely free population.

Semi- strong Udal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour does some of the work for a largely free population.

Khinasi :

Probably similar feudal setup to anuire but with udal tribal territories. I definatly need to think more about the khinasi.

Elves:

Weak feudal system for anuire. Village based tightly around an old elven tower for protection. May have small crop fields that are more like large gardens.

strong udal system for many others. Village to be spread out with no main through fair and plants found spread throughout. Small gardens but no crop fields.

Dwarven:

Probably a udal system.

A couple of villages. One a hill fort with wooden walls and the other underground with river and lochs.

Goblin:

Semi- strong Udal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour does some of the work for a largely free population.

Semi weak feudal system in anuire- slaves but also serfs and the king granting territories to goblin lords and tribes who grant land to those under them.

Any idea’s people have might get added in and if I get it done I will try and type it up and posts it some time after new year. If there is some interest and I think of anything else I will add it here for people to think over.

2

Descriptions of the social and political conditions in the realms are in great need of editing. One of the great differences between each of the editions is the quality or cartoonishness of the descriptions of the social order. Third edition has a much better description of places, politics, and societies than any of the previous editions without having to sacrifice any of the fantasy. Converting the 2E materials, of which about half were nonsense, to a description which veteran players will recognize but without the silliness will be the major challenge.

3

I’m looking at the Northbyrn River. When discussing Stjordvik, which is done in detail, because it has a PS, we hear of the fertile wonders of the Northbyrn River. On the Stjordvik side of the river we get Saerskaap (4) and Ustkjuvil (3). Of course there is no serious effect up-river. There are three parts of a river and the up-river parts are fast moving and generally take soil, not deposit it, and are not terribly useful for irrigation without damming the river. Consider what is across from Saerskaap and Ustkjuvil. We have Bjondrig (1), across from Ustkjuvil (and Hollingholmen), Riveside (2) and Romiene (1) across from Saerskaap. Why would we find 25,000 people on one side of the river, and 6,000 people on the other side?

The terrain is harder on the Stjordvik side.
Something seems to be going wrong in Dhoesone. Either these provinces are genuinely unoccupied despite the strong evidence of very fertile soil and a nice river, or the provinces have a population in the same ballpark (say 17,000) but because government has failed, the province levels are below what they could be if the Baroness wasn’t being pulled in twenty different directions by mutually hostile factions.

4

It could be explained in dhoesone that old rjurik laws of land rights and tax prevent the ruler of dhoesone from fully benefiting from the territory and people there. Or there could be other explanations like the clans in the north of doesone holding the land and not wanting rapid expansion. Of course maybe the baroness could help sort these things out if she wasn’t so busy with other things.

5

I always attributed the less settled areas of northern
Dhoesone as being the result of hostile neighbors.
Not really the Rjurik, but the humanoids of the
Giantdowns, the same sort from the bloodskull barony;
and then of course there could be raiding by less
friendly Rjurik in the employ of unscrupulous “robber
barons” of the Rjurik…I can`t remember the guys
name, but is it Storm Holtson or something like that?

Also, the people of Dhoesone didn`t strike me as
really fitting in either nitch: not really Anuireans
and not really Rjurik…so the more southerly
provinces of Dhoesone might be more heavily settled
simply because they are closer to the heart of the Old
Empire.

Anthony Edwards

— kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

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> message forum.
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>
> kgauck wrote:
> I`m looking at the Northbyrn River. When discussing

Stjordvik, which is done in detail, because it has a
PS, we hear of the fertile wonders of the Northbyrn
River. On the Stjordvik side of the river we get
Saerskaap (4) and Ustkjuvil (3). Of course there is
no serious effect up-river. There are three parts
of a river and the up-river parts are fast moving
and generally take soil, not deposit it, and are not
terribly useful for irrigation without damming the
river. Consider what is across from Saerskaap and
Ustkjuvil. We have Bjondrig (1), across from
Ustkjuvil (and Hollingholmen), Riveside (2) and
Romiene (1) across from Saerskaap. Why would we
find 25,000 people on one side of the river, and
6,000 people on the other side?

The terrain is harder on the Stjordvik side.
Something seems to be going wrong in Dhoesone.
Either these provinces are genuinely unoccupied
despite the strong evidence of very fertile soil and
a nice river, or the provinces have a population in
the same ballpark (say 17,000) but because
government has failed, the province levels are below
what they could be if the Baroness wasn`t being
> pulled in twenty different directions by mutually
> hostile factions.
>
>

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6

This topic is brilliant!

At the moment, I am without an internet connection, and I’m browsing from my cellphone.

I look forward to reading more about this, and hopefully to contribute.

7

Cityscape has a lot of information concerning government types (specifically for cities).

Examples include:

Autocratic City
Democratic city
Feudal City
Magocratic City
Theocratic City
Tribal City

It also has information on Guilds, Organizations and Contacts.

All in all a very good book for building a society with cities, specifically for adventuring and PC play.

8

I haven’t read cityscape. I might have to try and find it.

9

I’m gonna pick up Cityscape today. Like most of the recent Wizards products, I expect it to be a compliation of the best stuff produced under the open source liscence. I’ve been very happy with Cityworks and Dynasties and Demagogues. But, what we need for BR, what we need to develope concerns the province and realm level, more than the city.

Its great to have a guide to building cool cities that make sense and provide places of fantastic adventure, but we need somthing that combines that on a larger scale (provinces not level of detail), includes land scape stuff (I am less satisfied with Wildscape produced by the same publisher as City Works, but its an OK book) and the kind of stuff in Magical Medieval Society, but again on a province level, rather than on the smaller scale (at least for much of the book) of MMS.

I propose that as we look forward to describing realms in a BR wiki, we construct just that kind of document, which provides a point of departure for constructing realms and provinces, as well as giving us a set of terms to use as a standard set of desriptions.

10

For Dhoesone I would argue that politics is probably the cause of the low population.

The Rjurik probably don’t immigrate because they don’t want to be seen as servants of the empire / the druids disapprove (although the provinces bordering Stjordvik are guided by the oaken grove) / there is free land already in Rjurik, etc.

The Anuireans probably don’t immigrate because Dhoesone could be politely described as a back water - ruled by a half-human, savage elves to the southeast, goblins to the southwest, berserkers to the north-west and monsters to the north-east. The one Anuirean border is with Cariele, which is hostile to Dhoesone.

As regards natural growth - to be expected given the land KGauck describes, it is possible the realm has a problem keeping youngsters, as they head for the bright lights of the big cities in Anuire to seek their fortune rather than work farms, particularly given the oppressive activities of the guilds.

If nomadic tribes still form a reasonable size of the population the population would also grow more slowly, particularly if the nomads keep ‘forgetting’ to enter themselves in the census.

For a normal realm that was depopulated by famine / war / etc I would normally expect land-grants, tax holidays, etc to otherwise attract a lot of immigrants, although it is probably easier to say that the 1524 HC population could be below average due to a recent plague, rumours of war, passive civil disobedience (refusal to sign onto the tax rolls) etc.

What I don’t understand is why the rest of Anuire is paying for Dhoesone’s army - anyone trading with the Rjurik would do so by boat given the absence of roads and relative travel time, if the army is there to defend Anuire (against the Rjurik?) the invaders would still have to plough through Cariele before they got to Anuire proper so why not put the troops in Cariele / Mhoried?

11

I always assumed the "defense of Dhoesone was supported by the High Chamberlain (and those who wish to toady up to him) in a futile atempt to stave off any further degradation of the Empire. Remember he has relatives helping to prop-up the Baroness’s government. As for the low pop. the story seems to indicate that the elven queen ruled the barony for at least a little while before passing the regency on to her daughter. Perhaps settlers chose to relocate rather than live under an elven ruler. Combined with it’s back-water location, remembering that trade routs need to connect providences of different races (or at least terrain types) Stjordvik becomes a much more attractive ally.

12

With so many people “contributing” to the defense of the Dhoesone, it must be the most seccure realm in Cerilia, unless what everyone is defending are their own peculiar interests and the result is that every faction “contributing” are also contesting at least some of the other factions.

The fact that these various factions all control army units, and that the only one raised by the Baroness is a company of irregulars bodes very ill.

13

Anuire really doesn’t pay much if anything for the defense of Dhoesone, with the possible exception of the Haelynite knights there. Far more units are supplied by the elves.

Its possible that other temples of Haelyn kick in a bit of cash for the knights every so often.

Or that what we have are individual knights, whose property and support are throughout Anuire, but instead of defending thier homes and native realms, go to Dhoesone to defend that realm, or serve Haelynite interests there.

14

Consider

Anarchy Province/Kingdom
Autocratic Province/Kingdom
Democratic Province/Kingdom
Feudal Province/Kingdom
Magocratic Province/Kingdom
Theocratic Province/Kingdom
Tribal Province/Kingdom
Oligarchy Province/Kingdom
Mixed Province/Kingdom

Anarchy is generally either utopian condition or a temporary one. Tighmaevril can be the cause of anarchy. Such a condition probabaly wouldn’t be the stated condition of a realm, but might be mentioned as a past condition or hinted as a possible future condition.

Autocratic (Despotoc, Dictatorial) means one person rules, and the rules for BR clearly give all the power in any domain to one person (the guy with the bloodline) but the descriptions are full of contrary evidence. Decriptions of this kind realm are pretty easy, who is the ruler and who are his henchmen.

Democratic: Given the period the game generally reflects, we’re talking about the Viking Thing, estates, and diets. These can be dominated by representatives of a geographical area, and be like a House of Lords (where each lord represents his subjects), or it can be urban and reflect a limited membership (only master craftsmen participate, and they represent their own interests, not some broader constituancey). Democracies are very rare as a pure form of government, these institutions are generally combined with something else.

Feudal: A feudal system has different layers of governance, and the adjoining levels have mutal obligations to serve and protect the other. There are clear statements that Anuire is feudal, yet there are no rules for province rulers in either landed or holdings domains. We can assume that they are loyal and fully participating members of their overlord’s domain, as a good feudal vassal would be, or we can assume they have their own resources in some abstract way. Of course the dice can easily cover any abstractions, but they create problems if players wonder where the money went. If players seek to min-max their realms they way many do their characters, its nice to have something a little more solid.

Magocratic doesn’t strike me as a useful term here, because it represents the source of the power of the realm, not how its excersized or how many paricipate in governance. I have the same problem with plutocracy, theocracy, bureaucracy, timocracy, &c. Is it useful to describe The Orthodox Temple as a theocracy? Or Rheulaan Greencloak as a magocrat? Either the class of the ruler(s) is irrelvant, or its obvious.

Theocracy (as above)

Tribal, again seems either obvious or irrelvant.

Oligarchy, rule by a few. This is somewhere between rule by many and rule by one, but a few is a discreet number (not thousands) and more or less co-equal. A council or clique can form an oligarchy. The group is more important that the chair or other leader of the group.

Mixed would describe something more than just a hybrid, since “democratic oligarchy” functions to decribe a guild where some power is vested in a few and some power is distributed widely in the guild. Generally if two adjectives would need to be used (a feudal, oligarchic autocracy), its mixed.

If there are types that describe how many, or how power is distributed, that aren’t included, suggest them.

15

There are several Theocratic lands and to ignore that would be doing the setting a disservice.

Medoere and Talanie come to mind immediately in Anuire.

There are also some in the Khinasi Lands.

16

Medoere and Talinie are run by priests and have temple holdings, they are obviously theocratic in the present. This doesn’t need special attention, any more than saying that Endier is a Plutocracy.

One of the characteristics of a theocracy is that its not a simple coincidence that the ruler happens to be a priest, they must be a priest. Is investiture more difficult for a character of a different class in Talinie or Medoere? Are these realms only playable be priests?

17

Well Medoere was founded by Suris (at the insistance of Rournil) - and no I don’t think a theocracy needs to have a ruler who is a preist. Paladins can work just as well, as can any religious zealot could serve in that capacity. The important thing is the foundation (and recognition) by the church.

Ariya has the prince-paladin (historically) so I think that will meet any criteria for a theocracy.

18

In Dune and its sequals, the new Emperor establishes a theocracy on
Arakkis. While he himself could probably be considered a priest, when its
time for the heir to take over, the right of rulership passes onto his son
who is not a priest and in the meantime is ruled by his sister (the
“Imperial Regent”) who is, at best, a prophetess but certainly not a member
of the priesthood.

And yet throughout this time, you can see that the Imperium remains a
theocracy ruled mostly by an organization of priests who advise and recieve
orders from the imperial regent. Without them, the emperor could not rule
Arakkis as effectively and so it is often necessary to agree to their
religious demands, wheter you agree with them or not (even if you happen to
be their God or their God`s sister.)

On 12/12/06, irdeggman brnetboard@birthright.net wrote:

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irdeggman wrote:
------------ QUOTE ----------
Medoere and Talinie are run by priests and have temple holdings, they are
obviously theocratic in the present. This doesnt need special attention, &gt; any more than saying that Endier is a Plutocracy. &gt; &gt; One of the characteristics of a theocracy is that its not a simple &gt; coincidence that the ruler happens to be a priest, they must be a priest. Is &gt; investiture more difficult for a character of a different class in Talinie &gt; or Medoere? Are these realms only playable be priests? &gt; ----------------------------- &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Well Medoere was founded by Suris (at the insistance of Rournil) - and no &gt; I dont think a theocracy needs to have a ruler who is a preist. Paladins
> can work just as well, as can any religious zealot could serve in that
> capacity. The important thing is the foundation (and recognition) by the
> church.
>
> Ariya has the prince-paladin (historically) so I think that will meet any
> criteria for a theocracy.
>
>
>
>
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19

I also think there is a fine line between a state religion and a theocracy.

The places I mentioned all pretty much have state religions and so does Roesone (IHH).

I think the two are very closely tied and the government and reldgious influence issues need to be captured.

20

There area a number of areas to try and cover about a feudal theocracy or state religion.

A few examples.

Can the religion hold land as a lord but lords still exist.

Can the religion hold land as a lord but lords still exist and other religions may hold land.

Can only the religion hold land.

With a strong state religion the ruler is put in a difficult position as to demand taxes, militery support or the return of feudal land from the church may not be looked on kindly and may ultimatly result in civil war or some other strife. A Theocracy being ruled by the head of the church would have no such problem.