Raesene,
Thanks much for your suggestions about campaign progress.
Is it possible to join the BR d20 team? I am very interested in the growth
and development of our favorite setting, and would like to be a part if
your team is willing to take on more help.
I can send you some homebrew stuff Ive developed to give you an idea of my writing and creative skills. Ive also made minor contributions to the
Online City Project (that was a few years back) and BR.net.
It must be a little harsh, but here we are in February and the first draft of BRCS D20 is not yet released.
Is there some problem? Can I be of help?
It`s just Monday give them until at least Saturday. 
Ken Johnson
Associate Editor, IGN Vault Network
http://rpgvault.ign.com
http://actionvault.ign.com
http://www.ign.com
----- Original Message -----
From: “Count Demeter” <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: BR 3rd edition [2#1247]
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1247
>
> Count Demeter wrote:
> It must be a little harsh, but here we are in February and the first
draft of BRCS D20 is not yet released.
>
> Is there some problem? Can I be of help?
>
>
> The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
> Birthright-l Archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
>
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Count Demeter wrote:
> It must be a little harsh, but here we are in February and the first
> draft of BRCS D20 is not yet released.
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
Count Demeter,
Since you’re getting a free product that’s, by my last copy, 187 pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright community who have devoted their own time to a product which they won’t be getting compensated for; it’s my suggestion you wait, and thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply outstanding work. You’re not going to like everything you see, but it’s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and well worth the wait.
And if you don’t like it, write your own. Don’t be harsh, just be respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]
Mike Spehar
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
> Since youre getting a free product thats, by my last copy, 187
> pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
> community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
> wont be getting compensated for; its my suggestion you wait, and
> thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
> outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
it
s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and > well worth the wait. > > And if you dont like it, write your own. Don`t be harsh, just be
> respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]
be respectful and eagerly anxious. Theve come to expect from this project: "Yep, were late, but were the team and youre not, so you should thank us."Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
He wasn’t making an innocent inquiry, assuming I’m reading his typo correctly.
This is a Birthright project. This is to make the Birthright world better. I don’t give a rats @$$ who does what, but one thing I simply can’t stand is someone I feel disrespecting someone else. That’s the way I percieved it.
So if I took Counts line was out of context, for that I appologize, but let him tell me I did. If you have any further problems Daniel, please contact me directly and not the board. No brawling in front of anybody.
Mike
I did not get that idea. I think the team is being very fair with us.
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of daniel mcsorley
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:01 PM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: BR 3rd edition [2#1247]
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
> Since youre getting a free product thats, by my last copy, 187
> pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
> community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
> wont be getting compensated for; its my suggestion you wait, and
> thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
> outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
it
s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and > well worth the wait. > > And if you dont like it, write your own. Don`t be harsh, just be
> respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]
be respectful and eagerly anxious. Theve come to expect from this project: "Yep, were late, but were the team and youre not, so you should thank us."Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
give myself to this weekend aswell.
I am finishing up the manual with all the pretty things, but i have to do
this in the evenings after i get home from work. So i can only spend 2 hours
per evening on it.
And…you waited 2 years…whats another week??
So pleaze flame me all you can, i am the one holding it up now
([_]
Arjan
be respectful and eagerly anxious. Theve come to expect from this project: "Yep, were late, but were the team and youre not, so you should thank us."Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
Dear mr McSorley,
as far as I’m aware, the full text of the initial draft is finished - what remains is the task of making it look pretty - and, from what I’ve seen so far, it looks very pretty indeed - Arjan is doing a tremendous job on that aspect. As for the “lateness” of the project, keep in mind two things - 1) the scope of this, and the thoroughness of it; 2) it’s a team effort, yes, but in any team, there are individuals responsible for delays - in this case, that would be me, and not so much the others, who have done impeccable jobs in terms of the schedule here. Point being - don’t execute everyone for what I’m to blame for (holding things up).
I’m fairly certain you’ll enjoy it one way or another. It could be the content, the graphics and pretty look, or it could just be the enjoyment of getting out the good ol’ gasonline can and pouring it on.
At 02:13 PM 2/3/2003 -0600, Ken Johnson wrote:
>>On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
>> > Since youre getting a free product thats, by my last copy, 187
>> > pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
>> > community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
>> > wont be getting compensated for; its my suggestion you wait, and
>> > thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
>> > outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
it
s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and >> > well worth the wait. >> > >> > And if you dont like it, write your own. Dont be harsh, just be >> > respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_] >> >>The people running this project kept claiming this is a community >>product, so maybe you ought to stick to that party line instead of >>expecting the community tobe respectful and eagerly anxious. The >>original poster made an innocent inquiry and got about the response Ive
come to expect from this project: “Yep, were late, but were the team
and you`re not, so you should thank us.”
>
>I did not get that idea. I think the team is being very fair with us.
That post actually was pretty sanctimonious… Im not real hip on someone telling me I should be "eagerly anxious" to read his work. These guys arent J.D. Salinger. Ill definitely check it out when it comes, but that message was indicative of some rather high-handed attitudes copped by a few members of the design team. We should all fall on our knees that they would "give a minute of their time" etc. No one is going to live or die by the "official" Birthright conversion. Besides, the "go write your own" argument is more than a little flacid given that that is already what anyone who has been playing BR in the years since it went OOP has been doing anyway, and since the next edition (3.5) of D&D will be out in a few short months well still have to do that even after this “official” product
comes out. Once again these guys need to chill out. Im interested in seeing what they put together but the attitude is making me more and more skeptical regarding their ability to design a quality product. If its an
intelligent, well-written piece of work then great. Itll be worth the attitude. So far, however, I havent seen a thing that would merit the
egotism.
Gary
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
Count, if you can’t tell there is a little bit of impatience in trying to get this fisrt shot of a product out for review.
Please don’t take any offense in anything being said here. I’ve found that you don’t rush the artist while he’s painting (aka Arjan) - his work has been beautiful so far (see the web site itself) and the versions I’ve seen him come up with while trying to get the formatting (and size) down has pretty much knocked my socks off. Remember I’m only commenting on the layout not the content.
I know that I’m waiting with baited breath for this thing to hit the streets so I can hear (OK read) what people think of it and what direction they wish it to go.
Oh yeah, I predicted several weeks ago that it would be around the 2nd week in February that the product would hit the streets for review/comment, so the date shouldn’t be a complete surprise.
Just to bring some happiness back to the board I thought I would chime in and say thanks d20 team. Yes I am kissing ass and dont care what anyone thinks. Now a couple of points, Feb. 8th is 5 days away, my goodness we have waited years without, we had DOOMS work though, 5 more days wont kill ya. Why must people flame someone they dont know personally, does it make people feel better about themselves. I would have liked to been on the d20 team myself but do or did I have time to dedicate to this NO, am I mad NO, Do I think I could have contributed if I had time YES but that all doesn’t matter now, It will be out in 5 days. Does my group use our own conversion YES, Will we change after the release, if they rules work for our group YES. I will definitely critic the hell out of it and let the group know what I think, Hopefully so will everyone else. That is where the community comes into the project they are the testers and proofers of this, the current d20 group has stated this is by no means a final version they want input on the work so that it can be made a better project. I definitely know that if I did work on a project like this for FREE I would be a little pissed at those who flame me or the work before seeing it. Well enough already Happy waiting all, Thanks again d20 team and your big egos have a cold one on me.([] hell make it two([]
[b]Originally posted by Shade
Is it possible to join the BR d20 team? I am very interested in the growth
and development of our favorite setting, and would like to be a part if
your team is willing to take on more help.I can send you some homebrew stuff I
ve developed to give you an idea of my writing and creative skills. Ive also made minor contributions to the
Online City Project (that was a few years back) and BR.net.
[/b]
While the d20 Birthright Rulebook has now been completed, the d20 team will be looking for new members for future projects. When these projects start we will make an annoucement on this board.
[b]Originally posted by Raesene Andu
[quote][b][i]Originally posted by Shade[/i]Is it possible to join the BR d20 team? I am very interested in the growth
and development of our favorite setting, and would like to be a part if
your team is willing to take on more help.I can send you some homebrew stuff I
ve developed to give you an idea of my writing and creative skills. Ive also made minor contributions to the
Online City Project (that was a few years back) and BR.net.
[/b]
While the d20 Birthright Rulebook has now been completed, the d20 team will be looking for new members for future projects. When these projects start we will make an annoucement on this board.[/b][/quote]
Heck, everyone here is a MEMBER, eiher from the Mailing List or BRnet self.
No one get “hired” or “fired” from the “d20 team”. everyone is free to come and go…
Its just that we hope to inspire many of you with these set of rules. Everyone is welcome to help, we just needed something we could built upon.
we certainly do need some extra pair of hand when this initial document is released, many ideas has come forth building it.
i really hope everyone can calm down a bit and just let us all wait until i have finished the damn file.
this thread really demotivated me tonight, and mad me very said.
We are only trying the best we can, but we also have private lifes, and most of you know: life doesnt come for itself.
Most of you have girfriends, wifes and kids.
As my girlfriend is really angry on me because i want to finished the file this weekend.
I am a victom of a big layoff myself, and should spend all my free time to look for a job.
BUT I DONT: I promised to finish the document…
I had to turn my head away from working on the file tonight, watched the new stargate episode to calm down a bit and to cheer me up.
it worked, and now i can go to sleep (past midnight here already)
i indeed took a ([_] , and i go to sleep now…tomorrow jobhunting again..
good night!
Arjan
Ohhhh man!
I didn’t expect it to be like this. So I apologize for those of the D20 Team who took some insult in my earlier question. There was nothing to be mad about, I was just asking a question.
Ansd Arjan, I apologize especially to you, as I didn’t expect it to be disrespectful.
Anyway, I am happy that the file is nearing completion and will be released soon. I know how much work it demands, as I’m a writer myself here in Canada.
Long life !
Count Mordhekai Demeter([_] 
[b]That post actually was pretty sanctimonious… I
m not real hip on someone telling me I should be "eagerly anxious" to read his work. These guys arent J.D. Salinger. Ill definitely check it out when it comes, but that message was indicative of some rather high-handed attitudes copped by a few members of the design team. We should all fall on our knees that they would "give a minute of their time" etc. No one is going to live or die by the "official" Birthright conversion. Besides, the "go write your own" argument is more than a little flacid given that that is already what anyone who has been playing BR in the years since it went OOP has been doing anyway, and since the next edition (3.5) of D&D will be out in a few short months well still have to do that even after this “official” product
comes out. Once again these guys need to chill out. Im interested in seeing what they put together but the attitude is making me more and more skeptical regarding their ability to design a quality product. If its an
intelligent, well-written piece of work then great. Itll be worth the attitude. So far, however, I havent seen a thing that would merit the
egotism.Gary
[/b]
Well, I don’t think anyone would want to be accused of being J. D. Salinger - didn’t that author write awfully boring books that only exist to plague people’s English curriculums?
Now, as for the remainder of the post - I’m seeing this from a different angle than you, so for me, this looks more like miscommunication and misunderstanding, than anything else. I think everyone is sensitive about this, in one way or another - for the d20 team, we are all volunteers. No one gets paid. I still think the quality of the end product is pretty high, though it will certainly be improved through more extensive perusal and playtesting - as I hope will happen. Then, next, to stress the point of volunteer work - I’m pretty sure a lot of people would volunteer to work on this; I’m happy to hear criticism of this type from those that volunteer to help out, like Count Demeter did (though I can see that his initial post can be seen in a sarcastic light, I think that trying to think the best of what people are saying, rather than assuming the worst, is a good rule of thumb - right?). “Is there something I can do to help?” is generally far better than “hey, hobos, what’s taking so long?” when you’re addressing people that, after all, do not get paid, right? Now, before you misunderstand me - I’m not asking for gratitude or, that you bow down and bend over (at least not yet) - all I’m saying is that you should respect that volunteer work like this does not always proceed at an even pace. In the case of other, similar projects, they’ve died relatively quickly, on grounds of a lack of organization and internal consistency. There’s a product here - I think any criticism directed towards the end product will be good criticism. I don’t think criticising the team itself is such a good idea, however - though I suppose it is a natural thing to do, given the lack of any other targets to aim those guns at. It can be a vicious circle, really - criticism of the team, expressed overtly or in more veiled terms, leads to a defensive stance, and before you know it, bitter words are exchanged.
What would suck the most for the d20 team is if the end product never gets used in any way or capacity. I doubt that will happen, and I hope it won’t. I would only ask, on behalf of myself, but mostly on behalf of the others, that the product be judged on its own merits, and not anything else. It’ll be here pretty soon in any case.
Now, as for your concerns with the 3.5e compliancy - I’m going to make a personal note here. I’m a rules geek. I know the D&D rules much better than most people. I’m keeping track of whatever I see they’re doing with 3.5e - and I’ve already noticed a couple of things that I think will need to be retrofitted a bit with the revised edition, once we see how they work/do not work. I don’t think creating a “patch” for BR should take much time, nor do I think an extensive patch will be required, though probably a bit of touching up. I think that there’ll probably be at least as much change due to community feedback once the playtest version is posted, as there will be due to the revised edition. I also hope this made some sense, and did not come across as unduly arrogant, elitistic, cliquey, egotistic, overbearing, nor even lecturing, but merely as a statement of my opinion and belief about what will and will not happen.
Good.
Any writing processes is a lot of work and a lot saddening if I might say. When the BRCS D20 will come out, all the D20 Team must be prepared to receive more and more criticism then good words. I know, I’m working currently on a project at my office and my first draft was critiqued and refuse for some hurting reasons. But, my colleagues told me that it wasn’t their final word and that their opinion seemed harsh but it is necessary for a writer to produce a good if excellent work.
I know that some of you will take it easily but some will not. If it happens, I can offer you a good tip: Don’t go to revise it immediately. Wait until the mood comes down. Especialy in this case where you are writing it for free.
So, if I can be of any help, tell me. I can offer my service as a translator to offer the community a french version.
Thank you for your work !
Count Mordhekai Demeter([_]
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
> That post actually was pretty sanctimonious… I`m not real hip on
someone telling me I should be “eagerly anxious” to read his work…
Once again these guys need to chill out.
Agreed. As you say, its way too late for eagerness or anxiety. Ive
also never met a rule set I didn`t want to change, so this will be yet
another source of ideas to plunder, edit, or ignore. It might be very
good work, but I can only judge that when I (finally!) see it. Its
“officialness” means exactly nothing to me.
> So far, however, I haven`t seen a thing that would merit the egotism.
So far, we haven`t been permitted to see anything at all.
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:
> quality of the end product is pretty high, though it will certainly be
> improved through more extensive perusal and playtesting
Which IMO would have been improved much more if you`d done it all out in
the open to begin with, but that bridge was burned long ago.
“Is there something I can do to help?” is generally far better than
“hey, hobos, what`s taking so long?”
Well, sure. But for ages and ages now, whenever anyone has asked whether
they can help, the answer has been a resounding, “No! We`ve already got
too many people!” That means the only thing left is to nag you until you
produce something to which you will allow the rest of us to contribute.
when you
re addressing people that, after all, do not get paid, right? > Now, before you misunderstand me - Im not asking for gratitude or,
that you bow down and bend over (at least not yet)
Except thats exactly how it sounds, whether you intend it or not. All this talk of "were not getting paid" makes me reasses the whole scheme,
and think that whats really going on is that the payment youre after is
having your names on an “official” product, and you are so insistent that
no one else should be allowed to join you so that you can keep the credit
all to yourselves.
I realize this is a rather uncharitable thought, but it had actually not
occurred to me until your repeated statements that your lack of payment
means we should not criticize your lack of openness to communication.
I don`t think criticising the team itself is such a good idea, however
> - though I suppose it is a natural thing to do, given the lack of any
> other targets to aim those guns at.
Which is entirely the teams fault. This list is always happy to criticize any idea that comes along -- but you have consistently said nothing but, "Were coming up with great ideas but we won`t tell you about
them for a long time," which naturally leads to criticism of nothing but
that idea.
What would suck the most for the d20 team is if the end product never
gets used in any way or capacity. I doubt that will happen, and I hope
it won`t.
Another tired old argument: IMO, the way you have conducted the work to
this point makes that fear more likely to be realized, rather than less.
> I think that there`ll probably be at least as much change due to
community feedback once the playtest version is posted, as there will
be due to the revised edition.
I hope there`s a great deal more!
Ryan Caveney
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
Arjan wrote:
>Heck, everyone here is a MEMBER, eiher from the Mailing List or BRnet self.
>No one get “hired” or “fired” from the “d20 team”. everyone is free to come and go…
>
>Its just that we hope to inspire many of you with these set of rules. Everyone is welcome to help, we just needed something we could built upon.
>
>we certainly do need some extra pair of hand when this initial document is released, many ideas has come forth building it.
>
>i really hope everyone can calm down a bit and just let us all wait until i have finished the damn file.
>
>this thread really demotivated me tonight, and mad me very said.
>We are only trying the best we can, but we also have private lifes, and most of you know: life doesnt come for itself.
>Most of you have girfriends, wifes and kids.
>As my girlfriend is really angry on me because i want to finished the file this weekend.
>I am a victom of a big layoff myself, and should spend all my free time to look for a job.
>BUT I DONT: I promised to finish the document…
>
>I had to turn my head away from working on the file tonight, watched the new stargate episode to calm down a bit and to cheer me up.
>
>it worked, and now i can go to sleep (past midnight here already)
>
>i indeed took a ([_] , and i go to sleep now…tomorrow jobhunting again..
>
>good night!
>
>Arjan
>
>
>
I beleive the problem is that most of the people that agree with the
method used (keeping the process
within a small comitee) are the lurking ones
At least that is my postition
Sindre
Hostmaster birthright.net
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.