Build-College

Dungeons & Dragons MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999
1

One of my regent players, with the good of his people in mind, has
decided to build a college is his capitol province (6). I decided that
It would cost 20 GBs. I have not fully decided its effects. Ideas
would be helpful.

If it were open free to the public (public school) he would have to pay
more GBs for it. I offered him these choices:
Pay for all costs: Any class (as in social class) may go there
Pay 1/2 costs: Middle class and up only
Pay only minimal costs: Rich Middle and Upper only

Maybee it makes more people literate?
Raises the average intelligence?
Increases sucess of attendants (better jobs)?

2

On Sun, 3 May 1998, The Olesen’s wrote:

> If it were open free to the public (public school) he would have to pay
> more GBs for it. I offered him these choices:
> Pay for all costs: Any class (as in social class) may go there
> Pay 1/2 costs: Middle class and up only
> Pay only minimal costs: Rich Middle and Upper only

If we want to be realistic, the concept of a “free public education” is
really a new thing. In the medieval type setting in Birthright, it would
have been unheard of. While there are great benefits to a public
education, increased literacy, and the like, there are also some distinct
drawbacks. People who can read typically start reading things that the
government would really not have them read. When the university
professors are writing treatises on the injustice of a totalitarian state
and no one can read them, except for a few other professors who can agree
and pat the author on the back, then there is little danger. If things
get rolling along too well, a few well placed executions, and things
settle down for another generation or so. However, when the masses can
read these writings and start buying into them, it gets very hard to
control your government.

I would lean toward the idea that a univeristy education is for the high
middle and upper classes only. It should be quite expensive and very time
consuming. Getting an education requires a large amount of leisure time.
By that I mean that you cannot be worried about being attacked by orogs,
or even partcipating in the gathering of food. It is very much an
aristocratic endeavor.

> Maybee it makes more people literate?

A university does very little for the literacy rate. Elementary schools
raise the literacy rate, well at least in theory. Universities contribute
the creation of the philosophical ideas needed to advance the
civilization. Things like mathematics, physics, chemistry, literature,
political thought, historical analysis, the development of business and
economic theory, medicine all happen at the university level. Do not
underestimate the impact of literature and mathematics on a society.

> Raises the average intelligence?

Not by a long shot. Think about how prevalent a college education is
today. Are the recipients of the knowledge any more intelligent? No.
Better informed? Hopefully. Better thinkers? If we are lucky.

> Increases sucess of attendants (better jobs)?

That is a distinct possibility. As a case in point, one of the biggest
arguments presented in studying the history of man is so that we can
identify patterns of behavior that have occured in our history, and
hopefully avoid those patterns which led to harm, and repeat those
patterns that led to success. Hopefully, an educated ambassador would
make fewer mistakes than an uneducated one.

Also, we need to make a distinction between a college and a university.
The main emphasis of a college is instruction. The main emphasis of a
university is research. That is not to say that some research does not
occur at a college and that teaching does not occur at a university. The
bardic colleges are more interested in teaching folks how to be good bards
than they are with the creation of a new bardic knowledge or the
development of socio-political theories on the impact of bards on society.
A univeristy during this time would be training the best minds - i.e.
those who can afford it, if you are rich, you must be smart otherwise you
could have never amassed your fortune - in how to research and evaluate
new ideas. Early universities were a hot bed for the sciences, medicine,
and history.

I think that the university would be most beneficial in helping the
development of technology. Any domain action that centers on developing a
technolgy, improving the understanding of science and nature, making
better weapons of war, improving an acadmic skill of a regent, should all
get bonuses to their success roll, provided that your university has folks
working in that area. I also think that a university could add bonuses to
diplomatic actions, depending upon how you use the faculty of the
university as resources.

What items get bonuses largely depends upon the emphasis of your
university. If you develop a leading school in history, your diplomacy
actions should be much more likely to succeed. If you have a lot of
mathematics and science being investigated, then you will be more likely
to make technological improvements that advance society. Be careful that
you do not allow your regent to make a university that is great at
everything. It costs the state a great deal of money to hire the faculty,
and build the resources needed to make an exceptional department in a
university. Your university should start out with only one really good
department. As years pass, that department gets stronger, and becomes
even more famous. Then other people want to go to work at that university
just to be associated with the name, and eventually you start to grow
other really strong departments. It takes lots of time though.

Also realize that your university students are going to be the first to
start social change. Your regent must keep your eye on them and make sure
that they do not get out of hand. Young folks have a lot of energy and
not much wisdom. I am sorry, but it is true. University students usually
do things that they wind up regretting later in life. So, it may be very
likely that your university students may cause a riot from time to time
like we saw at Michigan State this past week. That does not mean that the
government should shut the university, or destroy the student rebels. It
does not mean that the government should not watch them closely either.

I could ramble on quite a bit more, but I think that I have given you a
lot to think about. Have fun with it. Make sure that your regenr’s
coffers get hit heavily on the construction of the university and then
continues to take fairly significant hits as he has to develop the
library, faculty, and staff of the place. Research is expensive and time
consuming, but it adds greatly to the society in the end.

Just my 2 GBs
Jonathan

3

Another small point about your university that I had forgotten.

In the middle ages the universities had a very strong theological
component. This made sense in light of the fact taht many were studying
science and history in order to better understand God and the universe.
It also made sense in light of the fact that the church had access to vast
bodies of knowledge and her clergy were, mostly, literate - i.e. they
could read Latin. So the clergy was a natural place to find literate
teachers with a desire to ask and answer questions.

So, one of the local churches may help sponsor the university. They may
have members of the clergy who are quite learned and interested in helping
out. It is also a way for these clergymen to gain access to new converts.
The church of Avani and of Rournil both should have some pretty serious
academic types. Avani’s clergy would be interested in mathematics,
and philosophy (see the Cities of the Sun expansion and the Ariya
DSB). Rournil’s clergy would be happy to discuss the mysteries of
meighval, as well as religion, philosophy, and geography. Clergy from the
temples of Eric, the god of nature, would be good biology/chemistry type
folks. Cuiracen and Andurias clergy may be interested in political
science, contemporary histroy, ancient history, and physics. Eleole and
Sera may be interested in business, economics, early psychology
issues, government, and law. Nesirie’s clergy may be
interested in mathematics, ancient history, astronomy, physics,
oceanography, and geography. Belenik and Kreishna? Hard to say. I don’t
see there being too many academic types in these harsh religions. If
there were, I could see the nature of magic, social policy and law,
meteorology, biology, and medicine/anatomy (all the more effective to kill
you with).

Goodness knows there would be some lively debate going on between
Nesiere and Andurias on history – the god of Lawful War and the goddess
of Mourning would probably see differently on several of the past events.
You should have enough different views of the catastrophe at Desimaar to
fill a library by itself. I think that Ariya and possibly Khourane have
done quite a bit of work on mathematics.

Also, as a side view, many times the only place to study the sciences and
engineering were at military schools. Evariste Galois, a brilliant young
French mathematician, was never able to get his PhD in Mathematics because
he could not get into the Military Academy - an attitude problem.

jsp

4

On Sun, 03 May 1998 17:39:29 -0400 “The Olesen’s”
writes:
>One of my regent players, with the good of his people in mind, has
>decided to build a college is his capitol province (6). I decided
>that
>It would cost 20 GBs. I have not fully decided its effects. Ideas
>would be helpful.
>
>
>If it were open free to the public (public school) he would have to
>pay
>more GBs for it. I offered him these choices:
> Pay for all costs: Any class (as in social class) may go there
> Pay 1/2 costs: Middle class and up only
> Pay only minimal costs: Rich Middle and Upper only
>
>Maybee it makes more people literate?
>Raises the average intelligence?
>Increases sucess of attendants (better jobs)?

It might raise the loyalty some, but chances are educated people would be
wiser people, and have lower loyalty if the regent does something bad or
questionable.

I also think it might increase the success of all agitate actions (for or
against the ruler) since the people would understand more logical
arguments.

The school could also improve research chances when researching realm
spells or some esoteric knowledge for other reasons.

Benjamin

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5

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Benjamin W Loebick wrote:

> I also think it might increase the success of all agitate actions (for or
> against the ruler) since the people would understand more logical
> arguments.

*grin*  Oh dear.  My experiences in grad school incline me to

think that logic is not so much better understood in a university
setting, but rather more effectively abused.
But seriously, what must be pointed out is that agitate actions
to be successful must affect a majority of the population of the province,
nearly all of whom will not derive any personal educational benefit from
the university. And then, even in a modern, highly-educated society like
the United States, how much is logic a factor in large-scale politics?
Moral issues (which university education has notoriously minimized, even
during the Middle Ages) and emotional appeals seem much more common, and
indeed more effective – it seems to me like most politicians would prefer
their consituents to avoid critical thinking, as logic motivates and
arms people to look for flaws in their arguments.

> The school could also improve research chances when researching realm
> spells or some esoteric knowledge for other reasons.

Well, this is largely a matter of who's on the faculty.  Given the

paucity of learned people and books to learn from in a society without
much leisure time and the printing press, it seems to me like the way to
acquire such a faculty is by recruiting lieutenants who are sages of
various fields; a court wizard would certainly be interested in having his
liege finance such a college, as long as he got to be the dean. =)

  • –Ryan
6

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Benjamin W Loebick wrote:

> I also think it might increase the success of all agitate actions (for or
> against the ruler) since the people would understand more logical
> arguments.

*grin*  Oh dear.  My experiences in grad school incline me to

think that logic is not so much better understood in a university
setting, but rather more effectively abused.
But seriously, what must be pointed out is that agitate actions
to be successful must affect a majority of the population of the province,
nearly all of whom will not derive any personal educational benefit from
the university. And then, even in a modern, highly-educated society like
the United States, how much is logic a factor in large-scale politics?
Moral issues (which university education has notoriously minimized, even
during the Middle Ages) and emotional appeals seem much more common, and
indeed more effective – it seems to me like most politicians would prefer
their consituents to avoid critical thinking, as logic motivates and
arms people to look for flaws in their arguments.

> The school could also improve research chances when researching realm
> spells or some esoteric knowledge for other reasons.

Well, this is largely a matter of who's on the faculty.  Given the

paucity of learned people and books to learn from in a society without
much leisure time and the printing press, it seems to me like the way to
acquire such a faculty is by recruiting lieutenants who are sages of
various fields; a court wizard would certainly be interested in having his
liege finance such a college, as long as he got to be the dean. =)

  • –Ryan
7

I have just come out of an intense ethics argument with another
player/character in a game and have something of a general
complaint/statement.

I commonly see (and hear) the term “lets be realistic”, or “to be
realistic” followed by references to medieval Europe. In my ethics
argument above I was told by the other player (a major pain in the butt
rules lawyer) that my character could not have an enlightened sense of
justice and innocence. After all, guilt was an assumed principal in many
cases in medieval Europe, and the American ideal of Innocence until guilt
is proven can not exist, so I wasn’t playing my character realistically.

My gripe: The whole concept has nothing to do with realism. Realism is
another aspect of suspension of disbelief and the general feel of a game.
To use Earth historical references against Birthright and call an attitude
of convention “realistic” because it did/did not happen in Europe is not
accurate. The word is misplaced and misleading.

Jonathan Piclesimer (Jon - this isn’t a flame or a slam - o.k.?) is correct
in that state sponsored education for the public man is new in our world
history. However, this is an historical fact and has little to do with
weather or not the idea is plausible in Birthright.

Education for the masses has not always been available, but education
certainly was not the purview of the rich in Europe. The Church and the
Holy Roman Empire sponsored the education of its clergymen, and to some
degree, these clerics saw to the education of their followers.

Obviously the Anuirean culture is modeled on late medieval/early
renaissance England/France/Spain, the adherence to nobility is still a
major issue for them, and of the four tribes, the Anuirean people are least
likely to desire education for the masses if we are to follow the
historical example. I don’t think Anuire wants an educated public that is
by default desirous of self-rule rather than the stark dichotomy of
haves/have-nots that presently exists.

Brechtur and Khinasi are very likely to support the idea of public
education. The nobles have virtually no power at all in the Great Bay, and
the Khinasi are almost as cosmopolitan as it gets.

Now - what does a college do?

Primarily I don’t think that a regent is going to see an immediate return
on his investment. The people are not going to be any more loyal (the U.S.
educated 1/3 to 1/2 of the world’s most brilliant terrorists).

It could certainly serve as a tool for propaganda. After all history is
only what is written in the books. Some of the biggest hoaxes have
happened because a certain event “had no merit” and so did not happen.
Then again who protested at Tieneman Square in the 80s? Students - the
educated.

A society can benefit from education, the more people that know about the
value of sanitation the better, the more people learn about farming
improvements the more food is produced.

In all I guess I really don’t see any hard game effect that could be reaped
from educating the public. Just as many handicaps appear as benefits.
Mostly its just a waste of time as you breed independence of a divorce of
reliance upon the feudal structure.

Just my few thousand gold pieces

Tim Nutting

8

Perhaps the attendants could be taught in a manner to favor the regent.
Better chance for friendly Agitate? Lower for enemy?

9

Tim Nutting wrote:

> My gripe: The whole concept has nothing to do with realism. Realism is
> another aspect of suspension of disbelief and the general feel of a game.
> To use Earth historical references against Birthright and call an attitude
> of convention “realistic” because it did/did not happen in Europe is not
> accurate. The word is misplaced and misleading.

Hear, hear! I’ve had similar conversations with people before regarding the
nature of role-playing and realism. After all, we play a game in which a
halfling fighter can face off with a dragon, so a call for realism seems kind
of silly, doesn’t it? I mean, I play D&D to avoid reality, for cryin’ out
loud.

I think RPG “realism” should be much more along the lines of movie “realism.”
If it contributes to the story line and makes things go along smoothly, then I
say it’s realistic.

> Jonathan Piclesimer (Jon - this isn’t a flame or a slam - o.k.?) is correct
> in that state sponsored education for the public man is new in our world
> history. However, this is an historical fact and has little to do with
> weather or not the idea is plausible in Birthright.

History is problematic when applied to RPGs. Aside from the fact that the
campaign worlds are vastly different from that of the RW, we also have to deal
with the addition of strange races, monsters, gods, and the existence of
magic. Even the limited magic of BR would vastly change the nature of the
societies and cultures that use it.

Jonathan’s description, however, was excellent and I found it very
interesting. As an example, I think that description could be quite useful.
Unfortunately, we haven’t much to work with aside from examples from history.
Such examples, however, should be taken with a grain of salt, not only because
they may not really fit into a campaign world, but because the influences that
created them differ greatly from those that would exist in the campaign world.

The influence of the church on universities is a pretty good example of this.
The Church was a colossal organization during the Renaissance. It had a huge
influence on universities. That influence came about not only because of the
size of the Church but because it was the bastion of learning in the centuries
before the Renaissance after the fall of the Roman Empire blah, blah, blah when
monastic orders preserved knowledge that most of the world didn’t have time
for. In the RW the Church was imbedded in learning.

The temples in the BR setting don’t have this same level of influence. First,
their fractious. Temples that worship the same god don’t even agree with one
another. In fact, they compete against one another. A temple could still have
quite a bit to do with a university, but I don’t see it happening the same way
it did in the RW.

> Obviously the Anuirean culture is modeled on late medieval/early
> renaissance England/France/Spain, the adherence to nobility is still a
> major issue for them, and of the four tribes, the Anuirean people are least
> likely to desire education for the masses if we are to follow the
> historical example. I don’t think Anuire wants an educated public that is
> by default desirous of self-rule rather than the stark dichotomy of
> haves/have-nots that presently exists.

> In all I guess I really don’t see any hard game effect that could be reaped
> from educating the public. Just as many handicaps appear as benefits.
> Mostly its just a waste of time as you breed independence of a divorce of
> reliance upon the feudal structure.

Well, one big difference between BR and the RW is the existence of bloodlines.
In the RW the rulers supposedly had their station by divine right. In BR, they
really do. They have the blood of the gods running through them. Because of
this blood they can use the beliefs, support, etc. of the people in the form of
RPs to get things done more effectively than a non-blooded RW ruler would.

An educated person could have all kinds of philosophical reasons to oppose a
dictatorship, but if that same dictator has a Divine Aura about him and could
rule much more effectively due to their bloodline, even Professor Protester is
going to have to admit their are pragmatic reasons to leave things as they are.

  • -Gary
10

Trizt wrote:
>
> On 03-May-98, The Olesen’s (olesens@bellatlantic.net) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT]
> - Build-College:
>
> ->It would cost 20 GBs. I have not fully decided its effects. Ideas
> ->would be helpful.
> I hope that is the cost to build the College and equip it with a small library
> and nothing more.

Of course. THis includes only the physical items. THings such as
teachers, admisistartion, janatorial (sp the guys who sweep), etc. A
larger library would also cost more.

11

Okay, Here is what I have come up with so far, taking into consideration
all your advice:

Cost for physical items: 20 GBs
Maintenence: 2 GBs, this is only pay for workers and upkeep

Sponsor: Church/Temple (not yet decied which one)

Effects: Student Riot as a random event/ event triggered by bad ruling
+2 on actions involving things the university is involved in, larger +
for larger library
+es on diplomacy actions with whatever temple is sponsoring university
+2 on Lietenent action for charachter classes that would attend
university

Thats it so far.
Ideas from this point on would be useful.

12

>+2 on Lietenent action for charachter classes that would attend
>university
>
>Thats it so far.
>Ideas from this point on would be useful.

It should be easier for you to gain certain Lts too. I mean if you have
a wizards college in town then it should be easier to get a court mage,
right? I think the chance of an intrigue action against your realm
should be greater too since you will have people coming and going from
the school all the time.

just a couple of Gbs worth of thought.
Aaron.

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