Here is the thread for discussing Ch 7, Realm Magic.
Here is the word document.
How about changing Source level requirement to match the spell level?
While Scry is not a first level spell i don’t think It require all that much massive power on the domain level… Up to the DMs in Balence v.s. Book-keeping
I’ve been working on the designs for new realm spells based off of existing [personal] spells, and thought it might be useful to include some guidelines in Chapter 7 for DM’s/players to do this when creating new realm spells. If people like these guidelines, it might also be reasonable to edit some of the existing realm spells to be more consistent with such a standardized system.
Spell Descriptor…Realm Spell
School…same
Spell Level…same
Components…ritual with RP and GB costs
Casting Time…1 month (or more)
Range…target(s) must be in province where the required holding or ley line exists, except for certain exceptions (Scry Province, Transport).
Target…1 or more individuals, units, or provinces (see below)
-Personal…not appropriate as a realm spell
-Single person…1 person, unit, or province
-Area, multiple targets…1 individual, unit, or province per caster level. Mass versions of single target spells should be a spell 4 levels higher than the single target version.
-Very large area spells…1 unit or province per caster level
Duration…see below; the DM may elect to cap the duration of certain realm spells, typically at 1 month or 1 season.
-Instantaneous…Instantaneous
-1 round/level…1 week per 3 caster levels for individual or unit affecting spells; 1 month per 3 caster levels for province-affecting spells.
-1 minute/level…1 week (individuals, units) or 1 month (provinces) per 2 caster levels.
-10 minutes/level or more..1 week (individuals, units) or month (provinces) per caster level.
Some examples (base PHB spell in parentheses after realm spell name):
Note that realm spell costs (RP, GB) are somewhat arbitrary right now, and could be standardized too if a streamlined system can be worked out and agreed upon.
Cure Unit (Cure Light Wounds):
Spell Level: 1st
Target: 1 unit
Effect: Heals 1 hit to a damaged unit (see below)
Cost: 5 RP and 1 GB
Design Note: Since all Cure spells are healing spells but don’t raise the dead, such a spell could not restore slain soldiers in a unit. Hence, the effects should be limited to healing no more than 1/2 the damage taken by a unit (round up). More potent (higher-level) versions could be researched, each healing an additional hit of damage (CMW = 2 hits, CSW = 3 hits, CCW = 4 hits), but given the low hits of most units these wouldn’t be very practical.
Heal the Army (Mass Cure Light Wounds):
Spell Level: 5th
Target: 1 unit per 2 caster levels
Effect: Heals 1 hit per damaged unit targeted
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB per unit targeted
Shield Unit (Shield of Faith)
Spell Level: 1st
Target: 1 unit
Duration: 1 week per 2 caster levels
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB
Effect: +2 deflection bonus to target unit’s defense, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).
Shield the Legions (Shield of Faith, mass)
Spell Level: 5th
Target: 1 unit per 2 caster levels
Duration: 1 week per 2 caster levels
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB per unit targeted
Effect: +2 deflection bonus to target units’ defense, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).
How about changing Source level requirement to match the spell level?
Ummm, why? I kind of like the idea that a lower level mage can cast more powerful realm spells if she can only get her hands on a bigger source. By tying the source requirement to spell level, you take away a large incentive for mages to increase their sources or fight for their preservation. If your a mage who can cast level 4 spells, why bother to fight for a 7+ level source. You wont be able to use it for many levels with your idea. Would your rule also apply to temple level and divine realm spells?
In this thread on the usefulness of named bonus types, several different spell varieties were discussed. Other than military spells there are no realm spells which give bonues or penalties to domain actions. For example:
Elected by God
Divination(?)
Spell Level: 1st
Special Requirements: Temple (4) and Lawful God?
Target: 1 scion
Costs: 2 RP and 1 GB (?)
Casting time: 1 Full domain action
Duration: 1 Season
Effect: One selected scion, who must be present in the province where cast at some time during the casting, has been divinely selected to rule. If this scion undergoes a Coronation Ceremony during the duration of this spell, and the priest who cast this spell performs the Ceremony, then the scion receives a +5(?) bonus on the domain action check to invest their domain. This is a +5 sacred or profane bonus depending upon the alignment of the God (priests of neutral gods use their turn or rebuke undead to determine this).
Im not sure on the name or the costs and benifits, but you get the idea. This spell could help particularly large coronations (DC = 10 + size of domain).
Many differnet spells like this could be created for almost all domain action checks. The casting regent basically gets to get a larger bonus then their RP and GB spend normally would. To get this bonus they must give up a full domain action and have spent the time and money to research the spell. High source/temple level requirements would also help reward good domain stewardship/growth.
Different casters would research different spells of this type allowing them be specialized. This could reflect different needs and interests. Priests of Sera would go for create trade route bonues, while Haelyn might go for rule or justice matters resolution bonues.
Just as a side thing: You see how my spell has level 1 but temple (4). I like the level 1, because then any priest can cast this if they spend 1 month (and a GB) to learn this. If it took longer to learn, I dont know that many regents would bother with this rarely useful spell. I like the temple (4) at least, because it demonstrates a serious sized temple ready to become a state religion, not some fly by night temple (1).
If you want to standardize “costs” for spells, I would consider the are of effect. If a spell targets a military unit, it should cost less than a spell that affects a holding, which in turn should cost less than a spell that affects an entire province.
I think some terminology should be rethought or added to clean up some descriptions and make it easier to write new spells. I also don’t think a discussion of realm magic should be kept entirely separate from a discussion of domain rules, as the two overlap a fair deal.
A separation should be made between spells that affect provinces as an area, and spells that affect population levels.
Another concept that might be a useful introduction, both for the domain rules, and realm spells like Blight Land is something like a ‘negative province level,’ working somewhat like a negative character level. It would be useful for cases like raising levies, or possibly for revising existing rules for pillaging or making new ones for population movements.
“Negative province level” I think I like it. Fits into an existing game mechanic structure and translates into a more easily understood concept. Now source level regenerates naturally over time (if left undisturbed) but province level doesn’t so that would require a little discussion but should easily be handled.
We do need to have some more discussion on domain actions as a whole to try to fit in realm magic and such.
We also need some more discussion on battle magic - I think that one fits in with the armies, etc. section since that is the level it functions at.
Again, I miss you Jan - you have a real eye for details and how game mechanics fit together.
You know, I/we could use a good chapter editor for some of these chapters. . . . :rolleyes:
Warding has been changed to a very high level spell, since it’s ‘built’ out from Guards and Wards. The big problem that I have with that, is that then Scry Province should be a level 4 spell. Mass Destruction a level 3. Subversion would be a level 5 spell.
Why not simply assign the level required to cast like in 2e? Because there’s no ‘spell’ level on realm spells. So a level 1 caster can cast this bunch of spells, a level 5 caster can cast warding, etc, etc.
Also I feel that certain spells should receive a boost somehow. Some spells have been slaughtered completely.
One of these spells is Transport. Before you could transport <level> units <level> provinces. So a level 10 wizard could send 10 units 10 provinces. Now a level 10 wizard can send 1 unit 10 provinces, 5 units 2 provinces or 10 units 1 province.
What if ability to cast a spell was based upon your level, but ability to effect multiple targets was determined by level of source. So lets say I cast summon monstrous unit. I use a 5th level source, which means even if I am 20th level or a mere 5th level caster I could summon 5 units. Other, more powerful spells might require 2 levels per target. Essentially my ability to have the proper expertise to cast a spell is still based upon my level, but the amount of targets I can effect is determined by how much power I have on hand which is based on the source level.
What if we restructured the realm spells to even more closely resemble epic spells?
Epic spells are all considered to be 10th level but they differ in power. That difference is determined by the DC to learn the spell in the first place. There is no minimum caster level to cast the spells (except for having the epic feat that is) but after that it doesn’t matter. There are various prereqs for ranks in spellcraft (another means of restricting them by power level). We use holding levels as another means of putting a power level on them.
Scry now gives a Will saving throw instead of making a sry check, so maybe the RP spent modifies the dc of the save?
I noticed that the DCs for realm spells is supposed to be 10+spell level + caster’s ability modifier, but many of the spells have hard coded DCs. Particularly the DC on mass distruction seems really easy given the expense of the spell. Do spell focus and greater spell focus modifiy these DCs?
Originally posted by void@Feb 13 2005, 11:44 PM
Scry now gives a Will saving throw instead of making a sry check, so maybe the RP spent modifies the dc of the save?
I noticed that the DCs for realm spells is supposed to be 10+spell level + caster’s ability modifier, but many of the spells have hard coded DCs. Particularly the DC on mass distruction seems really easy given the expense of the spell. Do spell focus and greater spell focus modifiy these DCs?
I’m inclined to go with a realm spell focus/penetration feat style format like the ones required for epic spells. It just makes more sense IMO.
On Epic Spellcasting:
I think epic spells are broken, having playtested them a bit with a dedicated sort of epic wizard (D&D but not BR) and extensive discussion in our group on the subject.
They use a system of seeds that seem flexible and diverse, but in fact allow only a very narrow range of possible effects: most of them simple score-boosting or just "more, more, more" of lower-level effects. What quickly became frustrating was how the seeds limited creative spell ideas to very narrow specifications. In other words, I had ideas for all sorts of magic that simply didn't fit the seed system. They turned out to be far [i]more[/i] limiting than the basic (0-9) spell lists.
Skill-based spellcasting, a concept I like very much, unfortunately doesn't mesh very well with the core D&D magic system very well. I think one of the glaring problems with epic spellcasting is that it is entirely its "own thing," following a mostly seperate set of rules from normal spellcasting.
Finally, the xp costs of designing epic spells are prohibitive. Again, charging a wizard epic amounts of xp and gp to learn an epic spell means the character must totally dedicate themselves to a single skill (Spellcraft), take the epic feat (Epic Spellcasting), and then only ever learn a few epic spells for her repetoire. What a let-down when you realize that even with some help, you'll know only a few spells.
The one thing I really liked about the epic spell system/section in the Epic Handbook? The concept, the flavored ‘leadup’ to a magic system of open spell design, limited only be a person’s creativity, and the character’s Spellcraft. Nice concept, but the mechanics didn’t carry it well.
So epic spellcasting as a model for realm spells? I’m opposed to this. If this is supposed to be a game system based on the core 3 rulebooks + the 2e BR material, shouldn’t magic be handled the same?
The 2e realm spell system seemed like personal spells on a very large scale.
Scale is the main difference between realm and personal spells, made possible by weeks of ritual, regency, and components.
There are 3 scales of realm spells in BR: Personal, Unit, and Province.
-Personal realm spells are limited to bloodline-affecting spells (as far as I know).
-Unit scale spells include most combat and many utility spells.
-Province scale spells are usually expanded from area-effect spells (bless, guards and wards, plant growth), though 2e spells like Subversion stretched single target spells into mass-effect ones (Subversion, Demagogue).
This seems to be at the heart of the realm spell system, both 2e and BRCS (which mostly maintained the original form). Except for some bloodline spells (Investiture, Bloodline Ward, etc.), most every other 2e and BRCS realm spell has a clear counterpart from the PHB spell lists. Usually the realm spell level was equal to the lowest-level version of PHB spell.
Ex: Subversion: core spell = Charm Person.
Summon Monstrous Unit = Summon Monster (the BRCS spells the equivalents out for this one pretty well).
It just makes the most logical sense to me to use the existing features of spells as a basis for conversion (even if it’s not our favorite magic system). This includes spell level as a measure of the spell’s inherent power, efficiency, and limitations; caster level to determine spell potency relative to spell level, duration, and range; and spell features (target, components, effects) as a basis for conversion to realm-scale.
I think this is what the BRCS started to do, but didn’t go far enough in spelling out a more defined system to design realm spells. Also, that system has now been playtested by many of us, though I haven’t heard a great deal of feedback concerning how good it is or whether it is in need of serious improvement (there’s been comments here and there on certain realm spells). I think that some of the existing realm spells could use some tweaking and adjustment for balance, which would make them less identical to their 2e origins, but more in line with the 3.5 magic system.
OK Osprey we’ve been down this road before when comparing realm spells to epic spells. It is like I mention the phrase “epic spells” and you get this red glaze over your eyes 
.
I am not talking about a straight exact comparison. I am talking about the scales of the spells being similar (which they are). I am also talking about realm spells being personal (like epic spells) in that they are not taught straight up. You are not going to find a scroll with a realm spell lying around, nor should you be able to cast a realm spell from a scroll (same restriction as epic spells). A caster isn’t going to automatically know a number of realm spells and certainly not gain automatic knowledge of realm spells just by advancing a level. On many levels this works, if only for the casting time issue (realm spells take a month to cast, or most of a month anyway their casting time is not measured in rounds). I am also talking about using the ranks in spellcraft system (similar to the epic spells except not divided by 10 though) to limit the number of realm spells a caster can know. This puts a reason to have ranks in spellcraft at the domain level of play. I am not talking about having to spend exp to learn realm spells (like is done for epic spells). The playtest specifies a GB cost per level of spell known which could translate into a similar system, I am also not opposed to placing a RP cost of learning realm spells (fits on many different levels also).
If you notice the playtest system placing the realm spells in a spell level system - I am not proposing throwing that away. This is the similar mechanic to the standard spell system. The biggest difference is that realm spells take a much longer casting time and are of much greater power levels than a low level spellcaster should be able to cast. Even the 1st level realm spells are in the range of 9th level standard spells when one translates the damage/beneficial effects out to all those creatures or the area the spell affects (most of the time an entire province).
More importantly I’m talking about thinking in terms of power of the spells. Realm spells are much more powerful than a standard spell and are closer in relative power level to the epic spells than to any other spells around.
Compare just a sampling of the realm spells; Bless/blight land (1st level), legion of the dead (5th level) or summon monstrous unit (2nd level). These spells are drastically more powerful than their standard equivalents. Bless/blight is a 1st level spell that affects an entire province (many square miles). Legion of the dead creates a unit of undead (that is the equivalent of 200 individuals) while summon monstrous unit summons a unit of monsters (again the equivalent of 200 individuals).
Epic spells:
Pestilence
Conjuration, Necromancy
Spellcraft DC: 104
Components: V, S, Ritual, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 1,000-ft.-radius hemisphere
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 936,000 gp; 19 days; 37,440 XP. Seed: afflict (DC 19). Factors: additional target type (plants) (+10 DC). change target to area (+10 DC), change 20-ft. radius to 1,000-ft. radius (+200 DC), disease effects (as per contagion spell) (ad hoc +21 DC). Mitigating factors: casting time increased by 9 minutes (–18 DC), two additional casters contributing epic spell slots (–38 DC), burn 10,000 XP (–100 DC).
When pestilence is successfully cast, a wave of illness radites outward from the site of the ritual, instantly infecting every living thing in the area with the debilitating disease known as slimy doom. Within 24 hours, everything in the area begins to show signs of rot and decay.
Each day that a victim fails a Fortitude save, it takes 1d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. If the victim then fails a second save, 1 point of that damage is permanent drain. If the victim succeeds at the first saving throw of the day on consecutive days, he or she has recovered from the disease. This magical form of the disease is not contagious and will not spread beyond those initially infected. Fruits and vegetables infected with slimy doom are unfit for consumption, as are disease-ridden livestock. This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of whom must expend an unused epic spell slot for the casting. The primary caster must also burn 10,000 XP.
XP Cost: 10,000 XP.
Rain of Fire
Evocation [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 50
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 2-mile-radius emanation
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Reflex negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seeds: energy (fire) (DC 19), energy (weather) (DC 19). Factor: change rain to wisps of flame (ad hoc +12 DC).
This spell summons a swirling thunderstorm that rains fire rather than raindrops down on the character and everything within a two-mile radius of him or her. Everything caught unprotected or unsheltered in the flaming deluge takes 1 point of fire damage each round. A successful Reflex save results in no damage, but the save must be repeated each round. Unless the ground is exceedingly damp, all vegetation is eventually blackened and destroyed, leaving behind a barren wasteland similar to the aftermath of a grass or forest fire. The fiery storm is stationary and persists even if the caster leaves.
Verdigris
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 58
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 100-ft.-radius hemisphere
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 522,000 gp; 11 days; 20,880 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21). Factors: change area to 20-ft. radius hemisphere (+2 DC), increase radius to 100 ft. (+16 DC), deal 10d6 damage during growth (ad hoc +19 DC).
This spell creates a tsunami of grass, shrubs, and trees that overgrows the area like a tidal wave. The plant growth creeps and curls across every-thing in the area, ensnaring it and coiling around it as if it had been growing there for a century or more. Creatures in the area must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the fast-moving growth, which otherwise deals 10d6 points of damage from the crushing press. Buildings are engulfed and they likewise take 10d6 points of damage. Those destroyed by the damage have their foundations uprooted and walls crumbled. The plant growth remains for 24 hours, after which it vanishes.
All of these epic spells seem to translate fairly well into what we (at least I) consider the range of realm spells. And by the way all epic level spells are considered 10th level (there are not various levels of epic spells, the difference in powere is measured by the spellcraft DC)
As far as using only the core 3 books, pg 206+ of the DMG talks about epic characters (although lacking in a lot of detail especially the spells even though they list several epic spell related feats) and the epic spell system is contained in the 3.5 SRD (which more people seem to have than the books - it is the only thing I recommend using the SRD for instead of the books because WotC incorporated all of the applicable epic information and updated it to 3.5 at the same time). Another thing the SRD did (not related to epic levels) was to include the statement that prestige classes don’t count towards the class level penaltiy for multiclassing characters. The SRD is free so it does meet the criteria of not forcing people to buy any more books than the core three (the real basis was cost for those in other countries and availability of books).
And yes I agree the epic spell system while a great concept was not really well developed. But nothing stops a player/DM from creating his own seeds to account for what the intent of the spell is being made (although I thik most of the seeds are really accounted for already) and many of the “existing” epic spells combine various seeds to get a different effect, much like creating a new magic item. I think that epic spells are really only limited by the imagination of the palyers and DM involved.
Let me first state that I am not all that comfortable with the mixing of what were battle spels with realm spells so some of my comments are based on that premise.
I also think that the most all of the mass spells should work on units. The advantage of ahving the battlecaster feat is that the spells can be used in battle, otherwise they must be used outside of the battle.
Cure Unit (Cure Light Wounds):
Spell Level: 1st
Target: 1 unit
Effect: Heals 1 hit to a damaged unit (see below)
Cost: 5 RP and 1 GB
Design Note: Since all Cure spells are healing spells but don’t raise the dead, such a spell could not restore slain soldiers in a unit. Hence, the effects should be limited to healing no more than 1/2 the damage taken by a unit (round up). More potent (higher-level) versions could be researched, each healing an additional hit of damage (CMW = 2 hits, CSW = 3 hits, CCW = 4 hits), but given the low hits of most units these wouldn’t be very practical.
My concept is that this is a battle spell and not a realm spell. Hence this shoud the effect of the first level of the mass spell and not the singular cure light wounds spell.
Heal the Army (Mass Cure Light Wounds):
Spell Level: 5th
Target: 1 unit per 2 caster levels
Effect: Heals 1 hit per damaged unit targeted
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB per unit targeted
I’d bump this one up to the cure moderate wounds, mass spell and then use the higher level cure, mass spells to have a greater effect.
Shield Unit (Shield of Faith)
Spell Level: 1st
Target: 1 unit
Duration: 1 week per 2 caster levels
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB
Effect: +2 deflection bonus to target unit’s defense, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).
Again I consider this a battle spell and not a realm spell and hence would use the mass version instead.
Shield the Legions (Shield of Faith, mass)
Spell Level: 5th
Target: 1 unit per 2 caster levels
Duration: 1 week per 2 caster levels
Cost: 5 RP + 1 GB per unit targeted
Effect: +2 deflection bonus to target units’ defense, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at 18th level).
I wouldn’t use this one at all. Again it is based on my concept of battle spells and not mixing them with realm spells.
Irdeggman,
Does your opposition to the “mixing” of battle and realm spells mean that there shouldn’t be any unit-affecting realm spells, only province-targeting ones? Otherwise, where exactly are you drawing a line, and based on what premise for this distinction other than personal preference?
There are some really massive differences between battle spells and realm spells:
- Battle spells have a casting time of 1 battle round (est. 10-15 minutes). Realm spells have a casting time of 1 month - WAY more ritual casting involved.
- Battle spells can be cast by any spellcaster with the Battle Magic feat and appropriately prepared spells and components. This includes unblooded casters (mainly clerics), which would make them potentially far more common than realm spells. Realm spells are cast by regent spellcasters - a very limited pool.
- Going along with #2, realm spells are fueled by more than expensive components and some ritual casting - they have incredibly extensive ritual, components, and most importantly, regency channeled through an appropriate medium (source or temple).
- Conclusion: Realm spells should be significantly more powerful than battle spells. There shouldn’t be grounds for confusion because realm spells should be obviously far more potent and widespread in their effects than battle spells. Period.
A 5th level Battle Spell: Mass Cure Light Wounds might heal 1 hit on a unit - on the other hand, it makes perfect sense to me that a 1st level Realm Spell, Cure Unit (Cure Light Wounds core spell), might produce a similar effect. It doesn’t require a 9th level cleric to cast it, but instead requires a level or more of temple, GB, RP, and a month of ritual prayer, chanting, invocation, etc.
This seems like a fairly reasonable trade-off to me. Realm spells, by channeling ritual power and the power of regency and temples or sources, can expand the scale of a simple spell to make it affect a MUCH larger area.
If Cure Unit were a 5th or 6th level realm spell, it would be worthless and no one would ever bother learning it. Especially since it doesn’t include raising soldiers from the dead (the only power that could completely heal a unit that has suffered damage).
The line I would draw is that battle spells affect the field of battle only or a unit (or number of units). The duration of battle spells (except for the curing/damage ones) should have a limited duration (i.e., no longer than the batle itself - a number of battle rounds).
Realm spells affect things on the province level and/or have duration that run more than a number of battle rounds. The summon monster/undead unit spells fall into this category.
I agree with the distinction in power level between battle and realm spells and that is something I’m trying to punctuate this by make a more clear demarkation between the two. Suggestions for how to more finely lay it out are welcome.
One of the basis for distinction I am using is the introduction of the mass spells in 3.5 (at least the proliferation of them). By their very nature these spells cry out to have a unit level application.
Another is, as you point out, to allow a non-blooded caster to have an effect on the battle. Many of the spells listed as Realm spells in the playtest document were battle spells in 2nd ed.
And another is to place a clearer demarkation of the power level. Since many of the mass spells are standard spells and could clearly (well reasonably at least) affect a unit’s hits and abilities.
One of the things I think is that a spellcaster without the Battle Caster feat can still use the mass spells to affect a unit, only not on the battlefield. This is something that came up since WotC introduced so many mass versions of spells and just cries for them to be addressed. We need to come up with a list of effects for the various mass spells on how they affect a unit - but that shouldn’t be too hard. I wouldn’t recommend doing that and keeping the battle magic effects more vague, but for these specific spells since they have the “mass” description in them it makes sense. I don’t think we should go to the level of writing up a battle level description of every standard spell that could be used on the battlefield becasue this puts a level of complication on the game play behind what non-wargamers generally like to deal with plus it is a never-ending cycle. It can be done, and we need to decide if that is the way we want to structure battle magic or not. Basically all of these things are going to be based on how we structure battle magic. I sense another poll or 3 coming up 
I’m thinking the next thing we tackle is the battle chapter/system but I’m torn on how far to go with the upcoming mass combat rules coming out from WotC.
At the end of everything (some time before I die, I hope :rolleyes: ) I’d like to have a supplement that gives stats for the units (once we decide on how they are structured) for the various other systems out there; Cry Havoc and Fields of Blood are the two that come to mind right now, for people who wish to use those rules instead. We can without a doubt legally do write ups of stats that mesh with those systems as long as we don’t reproduce the mechanics (i.e., we still require people to have those books in order to use those systems). Oh well very long term goal.