I’ve been operating under a couple of assumptions based on posts in the past. I think its time to quantify those assumptions so I’m going to make a couple of posts concerning blood score and blood abilities.
Read option 1 in poll as “(e.g., point buy method)” - ran out of room in poll.
My vote is random only, but I would find a mixture of both not this bad too. I only don’t want a point buy (or other non random) only, because this violates the “old” BR flair…
If any list members wish to participate directly in the poll, the link is thus:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1645
That said, my personal opinion is that the bloodline should primarily be determined in such a way that characters are balanced against each other. Randomness as a method isn’t generally balanced for any given subset of characters, though it produces balance between players over a long series of characters (and no BR campaign I’ve ever been in has gone through characters like the meat grinders that some DungeonWorlds[TM] are).
Intraparty balance is also an essential component to 3e rules in general - one character is not supposed to outshine another over the course of a game, unless he’s of a higher level. Of course, characters have different strengths, and what strengths are the best may depend heavily on the campaign. With all these qualifiers, a certain underlying balance between characters is still assumed in 3e. There are some random sacred cows that have been kept for sure, but they’ve had their horns sawed off for the most part. Rolling for ability scores is one thing; the way the dice tends to fall is another. The 4d6 mechanism tends to create few characters with extremely low ability scores, without creating too many characters with 18s, either. The natural selection rule in place tends to create a certain minimum standard that’s the same for all characters - everyone has at least a 14 in their primary ability score. There’s randomness and luck involved to be sure, but generally, it’s not that much of a factor. Hit points are no longer rolled at 1st level, preventing the “pale fighter with 1 hp and a ticket to the graveyard” syndrome. Beyond those elements, there’s no randomness in character creation at any point.
Being able to determine a character’s bloodline is a highly important background element to any scion character in BR - as important as skills or feats or what class the character is. It’s not really a good argument that a character can’t choose his bloodline, because for most people, they don’t really choose what they are, either - most people are a product of circumstance, some more or less than others. Determining bloodlines randomly by this line of reasoning would also lead to rolling for classes, skills, and feats randomly - of course, I may be beating the proverbial strawman here. Having control over a character’s concept and background is important to many players, I think. For those that don’t really have anything specific in mind, rolling dice can produce a workable result - or it could produce inspiration. It shouldn’t be the rule, however, merely a crutch to lean your mind on when it’s empty of ideas.
Random determination of bloodlines vs choosing them, goes right to the spirit of what separates 1e and 2e from 3e. Players have control over their characters and what they are, and that’s generally a good thing. Of course, it also depends on what the adopted definition of randomness is - rolling a couple of more dice can actually produce more balance between characters, as the overall statistical difference between characters becomes smaller. Players should still get to pick the general level of power of their bloodlines regardless.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark_Aurel” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:53 AM
> Having control over a character`s concept and background is
important to many players, I think. For those that don
t really > have anything specific in mind, rolling dice can produce a workable > result - or it could produce inspiration. It shouldnt be the rule,
however, merely a crutch to lean your mind on when it`s empty of
> ideas.
Nail on the head, Mark. This is especially true for me since I think that
bloodline does influence class. In either event, good players often come to
the table with a good character concept, and encouraging this leads to good
role play. I want to encourage that not just verbally, but also
mechanically, by allowing players to select their bloodline and have some
input on their blood powers.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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[b] Originally posted by Mark Aurel
Hit points are no longer rolled at 1st level, preventing the “pale fighter with 1 hp and a ticket to the graveyard” syndrome. Beyond those elements, there’s no randomness in character creation at any point. [/b]
Well, I don’t think there ever existed a 1st level fighter with one hit point!!! We always granted full hit points at first level, regardless of class, that’s not really something new, only written down. Further we always granted (and still grant) to reroll a rolled one at 2nd or higher level. If the character played a wizard, he must take the roll, if another one is rolled, but any other character class could (and can) reroll as often as the die shows a one.
Being able to determine a character’s bloodline is a highly important background element to any scion character in BR - as important as skills or feats or what class the character is. It’s not really a good argument that a character can’t choose his bloodline, because for most people, they don’t really choose what they are, either - most people are a product of circumstance, some more or less than others. Determining bloodlines randomly by this line of reasoning would also lead to rolling for classes, skills, and feats randomly - of course, I may be beating the proverbial strawman here. Having control over a character’s concept and background is important to many players, I think. For those that don’t really have anything specific in mind, rolling dice can produce a workable result - or it could produce inspiration. It shouldn’t be the rule, however, merely a crutch to lean your mind on when it’s empty of ideas.
In our campaign a player can still choose his derivation (same as he can choose class and race), but not strenght (including minor, major or great) and abilities. Well, the only reason, why we don’t allow choosing the strength is to avoid the ECL… Because we prefer adventuring and not domain play this system is too unfair until now compared with ECL races.
[b]Originally posted by Ariadne
[quote][b] [i] Originally posted by Mark Aurel [/i]Hit points are no longer rolled at 1st level, preventing the “pale fighter with 1 hp and a ticket to the graveyard” syndrome. Beyond those elements, there’s no randomness in character creation at any point. [/b]
Well, I don’t think there ever existed a 1st level fighter with one hit point!!! We always granted full hit points at first level, regardless of class, that’s not really something new, only written down. Further we always granted (and still grant) to reroll a rolled one at 2nd or higher level. If the character played a wizard, he must take the roll, if another one is rolled, but any other character class could (and can) reroll as often as the die shows a one.
Being able to determine a character’s bloodline is a highly important background element to any scion character in BR - as important as skills or feats or what class the character is. It’s not really a good argument that a character can’t choose his bloodline, because for most people, they don’t really choose what they are, either - most people are a product of circumstance, some more or less than others. Determining bloodlines randomly by this line of reasoning would also lead to rolling for classes, skills, and feats randomly - of course, I may be beating the proverbial strawman here. Having control over a character’s concept and background is important to many players, I think. For those that don’t really have anything specific in mind, rolling dice can produce a workable result - or it could produce inspiration. It shouldn’t be the rule, however, merely a crutch to lean your mind on when it’s empty of ideas.
In our campaign a player can still choose his derivation (same as he can choose class and race), but not strenght (including minor, major or great) and abilities. Well, the only reason, why we don’t allow choosing the strength is to avoid the ECL… Because we prefer adventuring and not domain play this system is too unfair until now compared with ECL races.
[/b][/quote]
So these are “house rules” that pretty much reflect Mark_Aurel’s assertions on “allowing” player’s more choice. We all need to be careful not to assume that everyone plays by our “house rules”. The idea is to come up with some sort of standard that lends itself to “tailoring” for indivdual campaign styles and not be perceived as the “only” way to runa Birthright campaign.
I prefer random-only rolls.
IMO the creation of unique characters are more important than the game balance.
In a really balanced game group all fighters have the same strenght score, same consti and same dex. Imagine a fighter with strenght 18 and one with only 15. The 18 should be an extraordinary score which is very hard to gain. And of course the 18 is unbalanced compared to the 15. I am against all kind of point-b. methods, they create stereotypical ST 18 and IN 8 fighters.
It is nearly the same with the bloodlines. High bloodlines won’t be unique any more. At long time view this will violate the gaming fun.
[b]Originally posted by irdeggman
So these are “house rules” that pretty much reflect Mark_Aurel’s assertions on “allowing” player’s more choice. We all need to be careful not to assume that everyone plays by our “house rules”. The idea is to come up with some sort of standard that lends itself to “tailoring” for indivdual campaign styles and not be perceived as the “only” way to runa Birthright campaign.
O.K., maybe you’re right. But this would mean, creating a “point buy” system only would address only less than the half (or maybe the half) of the community too. The best method to satisfy both parties is to create a system, that includes both versions then…
[b]Azrai sez:
I prefer random-only rolls.
IMO the creation of unique characters are more important than the game balance.
In a really balanced game group all fighters have the same strenght score, same consti and same dex. Imagine a fighter with strenght 18 and one with only 15. The 18 should be an extraordinary score which is very hard to gain. And of course the 18 is unbalanced compared to the 15. I am against all kind of point-b. methods, they create stereotypical ST 18 and IN 8 fighters.[/b]
So, let’s see - you don’t credit people with the ability to think of unique or interesting character concepts of their own? Do you roll to determine which class and what skills your character has as well?
I don’t think you give the 3e point buy system a lot of credit there (have you looked at it?). While the system has its flaws, it does scale ability scores upwards. In the default value distribution, attaining a value of 18 is quite expensive, and will be a significant sacrifice in other areas.
Under the default 3e rules, the fighter you postulate would have ability scores that go like: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8. That’s one crappy will save, just for starters. That character will have +3 total for his ability modifiers. Different ways of spreading out those points might be: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8 (total modifier +4, better saves overall) or even Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10. Which is the better spread of ability scores really depends on the campaign as well - if your campaign is a primitive hack-n-slash campaign, charisma and intelligence are likely to be worth significantly less than in a heavily intrigue-based campaign.
Of course, you can also easily modify a point buy system with simple rules such as “you must buy at least two odd scores, and no more than one pair of identical ability scores” or similar ways of making the scores more “interesting” and unique.
That said, I don’t use point buy in my campaign, and I wasn’t talking about a “point buy” system for bloodlines. A “point buy” system for bloodlines is pretty much impossible to rig - there’s nothing to “point buy” against. I remember someone tried to do it, which was, in my view, a failure - basically, “point buying” a higher bloodline vs number of blood abilities - which doesn’t make sense at all, since it leaves people with low bloodlines with many abilities, and those with high bloodlines with few. There’s not really much point in arguing about that, since what you’d essentially end up doing would be bashing a strawman - and a stupid one, at that.
My suggested method for picking bloodline strength goes like this (and it is in part D of the bloodline system suggestions that was posted recently):
-Any player can choose for his character to be non-blooded or blooded, and if blooded, he can choose a tainted, minor, major or great bloodline.
-Each bloodline level corresponds to a scion level - i.e. a great scion is a 4th-level scion.
-The character generates his bloodline score at character creation by rolling dice according to the number of scion levels he’s going to take, using a less random method than the 2e one - i.e. roll 2d4+4, 2d4+12, 2d4+20, or 2d4+28 (and there’s a feat that allows you to get a stronger bloodline score than this).
This method is essentially the same as the template method in the current playtest version, with the exceptions that 1) it does away with the bloodline ability score in favor of a bloodline spread identical to 2e; 2) it replaces the “empty” level adjustment with actual scion levels to boost the power level of scions a bit; 3) it allows PCs to start the game out with a set bloodline score - unlike the template system, a PC gains his full bloodline up front. In other words, it’s more like the 2e bloodline score, but with a more 3e-ish balance.
This model, or a similar one, is something I’d argue for - not a point buy system. If you wanted to use my method with a greater degree of randomness, you could rule that players that want blooded PCs have to roll on the BR Rulebook table to determine their overall maximum scion level.
I’m no proponent that there is one true path - a cat catches mice, regardless of its color. My point is simply that the default system should match 3e philosophy as closely as possible, and not be an attempt at wedging a 2e rules system into a 3e game, or a system that uses 2e philosophy disguised with 3e mechanical terms.
[b]Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Under the default 3e rules, the fighter you postulate would have ability scores that go like: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8. That’s one crappy will save, just for starters. That character will have +3 total for his ability modifiers. Different ways of spreading out those points might be: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8 (total modifier +4, better saves overall) or even Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10. [/b]
As you see yourself, you can only create average characters, no exeptional ones…
Well, you can create more “powerless” characters with the rolling method, but you have the same chance to get a really good one.
As you see yourself, you can only create average characters, no exeptional ones…
Well, you can create more “powerless” characters with the rolling method, but you have the same chance to get a really good one.
An average character is a character with 10 10 10 11 11 11 in any distribution. The standard methods for ability score determination in 3e creates characters that are anything but average. The main difference from 1e and 2e is that ability bonuses kick in at lower values, so you don’t really “need” 15s or higher to be an “exceptional” character. The standard methods generate characters that are pretty heroic in stature, without crossing the line to everyone being a Captain America or Batman. The game is also balanced with a certain level of ability scores in mind, which is around the default level. Higher or lower scores, and CRs and such start working even worse.
As for the second assertion, that’s not really a fun one. It probably creates a lot of problems. Let’s say you have two guys rolling the dice for ability scores. One gets 14, 8, 10, 11, 11, 10, and the other gets 18, 18, 17, 16, 13, 12. They both play fighters, and pick the same feats. The first guy is likely to get shown up by the second quite a lot - which just isn’t fun for the player. You can make it fun, but I think the second guy would think of his character as Robin more than Batman - a sidekick or a second-rate support guy. He won’t be able to take on as big a challenge as the first guy. Granted, the example is extreme, but playing in a group where the difference between PC ability scores is high due to randomness can be a frustrating experience - it can also be fun, but I think it is much more likely to be frustrating on some level. It’s a bit like having one player have his PC start at a higher or lower level than the others. Balance between PCs is important so everyone can feel useful. It’s not fun to play a 1st-level fighter, the adventuring companion of Erzgold the Mighty, a 7th-level wizard who can summon more powerful creatures than the fighter anyway. “Yeah, I’ll get the door. Want me to pick up something in the kitchen?”
This is all way off topic, though.
Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
First an addition to my previous statement: In order to have the possibilty to choose any abilities there have to be an important prerequisite. The abilities must be balanced and equal and only differ in personal taste. This IS the case for feats and for character classes, but IMO not for bloodline abilities or blood scores. The moment you CAN choose a better or more useful ability one violates game mechanics.
Do you roll to determine which class and what skills your character has as well?
Of course not, see above.
I don’t think you give the 3e point buy system a lot of credit there (have you looked at it?). While the system has its flaws, it does scale ability scores upwards. In the default value distribution, attaining a value of 18 is quite expensive, and will be a significant sacrifice in other areas.
A fighter with 18 ST and 18 KO does not care if his IN or WIS is 8. Be realistic, not one player will choose his main-score below 16.
First an addition to my previous statement: In order to have the possibilty to choose any abilities there have to be an important prerequisite. The abilities must be balanced and equal and only differ in personal taste. This IS the case for feats and for character classes, but IMO not for bloodline abilities or blood scores. The moment you CAN choose a better or more useful ability one violates game mechanics.
Yep. So we redesign the blood abilities to fit the 3e philosophy of balance better. Same thing as with classes or prestige classes - one choice shouldn’t be strictly better than any other. Different areas of specializations, sure, but not overall better.
A fighter with 18 ST and 18 KO does not care if his IN or WIS is 8. Be realistic, not one player will choose his main-score below 16.
Sure, taking a 16 is realistic. Taking scores above that is probably not good overall minmaxing. You can’t choose both 18 Str and 18 Con with default point buy, btw. The best you can get is 18 15 9 8 8 8. Arguably not a very well-balanced character. Having a Dex penalty is a pretty serious drawback for a fighter. Having a Wis penalty makes an already bad Will save abysmal. How fun is it to be the fighter that always falls victim to the sleep or hold person spells that gets thrown around, even at low levels? An 18 Str doesn’t matter much if you can’t move, does it? A low dex gets you roasted a lot more by fireballs and lightning bolts. Sure, you can soak it up with the Con bonus, but can you dish it out afterwards? A 1st-level fighter with 18 Str and 8 Wis has about a 35% chance to survive an encounter with a 1st-level wizard a 14 Int. If he’d had a Wisdom of 12 instead, the chance’d be about 45% instead - which is a very significant improvement of the odds. The fighter, or the barbarian is in a good situation in any case - they can afford to focus on a few attributes better than other classes, but totally ignoring any score is pretty stupid. For most other classes, the emphasis is much greater on spreading points around. The paladin will want a high charisma for his special class abilities, a high wisdom for spells, a high strength for fighting, a high constitution for hit points, a reasonable dex to not have a sucky AC - from a class ability point of view, only his intelligence is somewhat expendable. Similar breakdown to the paladin for rangers, clerics, and druids. Monks rely on good or reasonable scores in pretty much every stat, with the exception of charisma. Rogues need a high Dex, a high Int, and possibly a high Cha, for their skills. A good Str never hurts to be a bit more effective in melee, and a good Con gives better saves and hp. Wis is always handy for Spot and Listen checks, as well as Will saves. IMO it’s not a very smart player that thinks a good way to design his character is to boost one score to 18 at the start and let every other ability score rot - that’s just making your character a one-trick pony that’ll be somewhat handicapped in other situations.
Anyway, point buy doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic here, or the way I would suggest handling picking bloodlines and blood abilities. Have you looked at it?
Mark_Aurel wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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> Mark_Aurel wrote:
>…
>
>
A fighter with 18 ST and 18 KO does not care if his IN or WIS is 8. Be realistic, not one player will choose his main-score below 16.
>
>Sure, taking a 16 is realistic. Taking scores above that is probably not good overall minmaxing. You can`t choose both 18 Str and 18 Con with default point buy, btw. The best you can get is 18 15 9 8 8 8. Arguably not a very well-balanced character. Having a Dex penalty is a pretty serious drawback for a fighter.
Don´t you forget here, that most fighters wear the best armour they can
get, most often heavy armour that has a maximum dex bonus of sometimes
only 1 or 2? High Dex is not so useful if armour limits its use.
Having a Wis penalty makes an already bad Will save abysmal. How fun is it to be the fighter that always falls victim to the sleep or hold person spells that gets thrown around, even at low levels? An 18 Str doesn
t matter much if you cant move, does it? A low dex gets you roasted a lot more by fireballs and lightning bolts. Sure, you can soak it up with the Con bonus, but can you dish it out afterwards? A 1st-level fighter with 18 Str and 8 Wis has about a 35% chance to survive an encounter with a 1st-level wizard a 14 Int. If hed had a Wisdom of 12 instead, the chanced be about 45% instead - which is a very significant improvement of the odds.
>
A 1st level fighter is in a rare magic world like Birthright much more
likely to encounter foes other than wizards due to the small number of
true wizards. Except from that you are right.
bye
Michael
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What I don’t get is why you randomites only look at the top half of the odds, and somehow assume that because it’s technically possible to roll all 16+ scores that means you actually will… in random creation, it’s not “difficult” to get an 18 score… you put forth the same flick of the wrist and release of the dice that the guy who rolled a 6 did. Giving out amazing or shabby characters based on dumb luck isn’t balance and no one “earned” what they got.
Point buy does alot in your favor. Most groups never use the 25-point build, but rather use 28, 30, or 32.
3d6 gives an average score of 10.5
4d6, drop lowest die gives an average score of 12.25
25 point buy (spent as evenly as possible) gives a 12.17
28 points gives 12.67 (Greyhawk)
30 points averages to 13 (Neverwinter Nights)
and 32 points gives you 13.33 (Forgotten Realms)
So as you can see, you would do better than the rolling odds in any of the point pools above 25, and even then you gain alot by being able to choose the scores you like for a particular class.
There have been games I played in where the DM insisted on making us roll, and I really wanted to be a spellcaster, but I got lots of 14 scores but nothing higher. I had to abandon my desire to be a spellcaster because you won’t even be able to cast your higher level spells when you get them if you start with less than a 15 in your casting stat. I got more overall points in my ability scores with that roll than what a 28 or 30 point buy would have given me, but the fact that I didn’t get a single 15 or better killed my character concept. I would have much rather had the control to build the character I wanted, even if it meant losing a point or two in other stats that are less important.
I’m also in favor of standard-progression hit points… take half your hit die +1 and that’s what you get for every level after the first, where you still get max.
d4 = 3
d6 = 4
d8 = 5
d10 = 6
d12 = 7
Character creation and advancement should be about CHOICES you make, not about dumb LUCK.
I agree with Keovar. Random stats create problems.
If two players roll following stats: P1 gets 17, 16, 16, 13, 12, 12 and P2 gets 13, 12, 12, 12, 10, 9. P1 gets more powerful character. Problem can be solved by giving P2 to re-roll his stats. Then he might end up more powerful than P1 and again nice DM give P1 a chance to re-roll his stats. In the end, nobody has stat below 14. We (our gaming group) ended up in situation (in 2nd Edition) where players decided their stats because there is no sense throwing endlessly dices and waiting to get stats to character they wanted to play. Now in point buy there is no need for endless re-rolls. Character are tuned inside group and every one has his “own thing to do” in the group. In the end, playing RPGs is meant to be fun and I think playing character with poor stats isn’t.
Another reason is that it gives reason to play other races than humans in 3E. Buying stat to 18 cost very much and there is no reason to buy stat over 16 unless you want to play somehow handicapped character (meaning stat value under 10). Stat bonusses that other races have can easily give you stat of 18 without having low values in somewhere else. In random games humans are (IMO) easily best race to play. Additional feat and skill points that they have are so good bonusses that humans are hard to resist
My very first player, 1st ed AD&D was a mage with an 8 Intelligence. The rules back then were roll 3d6 IN ORDER and there wasn’t an allowance for rerolls so you were basically stuck with what you got unless the DM had pity on you (which mine didn’t). So my character cast his 1 spell (sleep) and then just walked along behind the others. There was nothing as boring and frustrating as playing a low level mage in 1st ed.
My next character - Boom Boom Bromski a fighter with an 18 (07) Strength, a 16 Dex and a 4 Intelligence. A rather fun character to play. He broke a thief’s hand he caught stealing from because “What’s in the pouch is mine what’s outside the pouch is his”. It was an NPC and all of the players and the DM were shocked at that action - “You’ll cripple him and he wouldn’t be able to perform his trade.”
Options/choices are always better to have, just disregard the ones you don’t like.
[b]Originally posted by Tempest
If two players roll following stats: P1 gets 17, 16, 16, 13, 12, 12 and P2 gets 13, 12, 12, 12, 10, 9. P1 gets more powerful character. Problem can be solved by giving P2 to re-roll his stats. Then he might end up more powerful than P1 and again nice DM give P1 a chance to re-roll his stats. In the end, nobody has stat below 14. We (our gaming group) ended up in situation (in 2nd Edition) where players decided their stats because there is no sense throwing endlessly dices and waiting to get stats to character they wanted to play. Now in point buy there is no need for endless re-rolls. Character are tuned inside group and every one has his “own thing to do” in the group. In the end, playing RPGs is meant to be fun and I think playing character with poor stats isn’t.[/b]
Maybe. The problem is: With point-buy system you ONLY get horrible stats. If you choose a 16, you already get an 8 in another ability. Well, with rolling dice, this CAN occure too, but the chance for an 17 or 18 without an 8 or less is much higher. IMO in 3rd Edition high stats are exeptionally nessessary (especially for spellcasters), because they are open ended now. In 2nd Ed you couldn’t highten them, but you was really glad with a 17 and not this disapointed with a 7 or less. With a girdle of giant strength Str 22 (in 2nd ED), Wow, this was nearly the end of the scale and today? +6, hmm, the str 9 character has still only a 15. Yay!!! But well, still better than a 9. What I wanted to say is: Point-buy might “balance” the abilities out with each player (granted), but then EVERYBODY is equally disappointed… 
— Ariadne <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> skrev: > This
post was generated by the Birthright.net
> message forum.
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> What I wanted to say
> is: Point-buy might “balance” the abilities out
> with each player (granted), but then EVERYBODY is
> equally disappointed…
>
>
Just give everybody extra points - and everybody will
be equally over powered!
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What I wanted to say is: Point-buy might “balance” the abilities out with each player (granted), but then EVERYBODY is equally disappointed…
Yes, I know. I have already heard whining about “equally poor stats”, but in future I will be using “4d6 and drop lowest” -system. No rerolls, no freebies. If players are satisfied with this, it’s fine with me too. I’m “just” DM and I don’t have to force players to play characters that are balanced between each other. As I said, playing RPGs is meant to be fun and if they think that is fun, then I give it to them. Personally I still think point buy is superior and I believe you cannot convince me otherwise and I cannot convince you.