Detect Evil at will?

Dungeons & Dragons BRCS 3.0/3.5 Edition
1

The recent thread on Paladins has reminded me of something.

Consider the paladin’s ability to detect evil at will. Now in the iconic adventure this is rarely used as the contents of a dungeon, at least those portions of it which are hurling themselves, screaming and foaming onto your waiting swords, are invariably (and patently) evil.

But Birthright is/can be different: courtly intregue, political ambition and subtle manouvering conspire to make discovering who is your friend and who is your enemy as much, if not more of a challenge as 1d6 Orcs in a 30ft square room. That is until the Paladin arrives and just tells you which ones are evil.

In my campaign, Paladins Know Bloodline at will instead. Is this a worthy variant for the BRCS?

2

Do you have any rationale behind why Paladins have an ability to Detect Bloodline rather than Detect Evil? It doesn’t seem to tie in with being a holy champion of good to me, so I was just curious. :slight_smile:

An alternative that you might want to consider to limit the paladin’s ability to detect evil is to change it from at will to a number of times per day equal to 1 + charisma modifier.

3

Originally posted by Kalien
Do you have any rationale behind why Paladins have an ability to Detect Bloodline rather than Detect Evil? It doesn’t seem to tie in with being a holy champion of good to me, so I was just curious. :slight_smile:

Well, originally it was Detect Undead, but given that most undead are obvious and those that aren’t can hide it I changed it so the Paladins could scour the world for the taint of Azrai. (I have a character who is mid-change into an Awnsheglin and it has made his life a bit more interesting on occation <evil grin>).

CM.

4

A paladin WITHOUT detect evil at will? No, no and no. I have no problems to ad detect undead and detect bloodline, however :wink:

5

IMO it’s needless tinkering. Paladins have always had this ability and there is no real reason presented to remove it.

Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this ability is like a search without probable cause. Also using the ability requires concentrating and since it’s a spell-like ability it does generate an attack of opportunity.

If this issue is a paladin walking into a regent’s court and identifying everyone in the room who is evil - well that would violate his moral code in just about any set of circumstances I can think of.

No, this is really a case of a DM applying sufficient amount of role-playing restrictions on players. There would have to be consequences of the paladin’s actions.

I agree with Kalien in that adding (or swapping) detect bloodline is arbitrary in its application as presented.

6

Originally posted by irdeggman
Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this ability is like a search without probable cause.

My worry is the moral code of a Chaotic Good paladin is going to be flexible enough to allow this.

CM.

7

[b]Originally posted by CMonkey

   [quote][b][i]Originally posted by irdeggman[/i]

Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this ability is like a search without probable cause.[/b]

My worry is the moral code of a Chaotic Good paladin is going to be flexible enough to allow this.

CM.[/b][/quote]

Believe it or not the chaotic good paladin has the same moral restrictions that the lawful good one does in this case (with the one exception of alignment-based ones (lawful vs chaotic only). Again, always did (look in the 2nd BRB or BoP to check this one out). The chaotic one is less on talking things out and more on settling it by “agressive negotiations” and probably wouldn’t be invited to the court as more than an “ornament” since the paladin would be board out of his mind and look for excuses to leave.

8

Originally posted by irdeggman
Believe it or not the chaotic good paladin has the same moral restrictions that the lawful good one does in this case (with the one exception of alignment-based ones (lawful vs chaotic only).

If that is the case, I concede the point, but nothing in either book that I can find states that - can you give me a more specific reference?

Also, given that (a) with any luck there will be more players of 3rd edition BR that have not played 2nd edition than just me and (B) 3rd edition has an example of a CG paladin-like prestige class (the Holy Liberator) without such limitations and further, Monte Cook describes CG paladins as:

Sometimes a champion of good focuses on the individual and defends his right to freedom against tyranny as much as he struggles against evil. This knight rarely belongs to an order and creates his own code of conduct as he goes along.

I really think a section on the different paladin’s codes would be a valuable addition to the BRCS.

CM.

9

----- Original Message -----
From: “irdeggman” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:40 AM

> Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this
> ability is like a search without probable cause.
> If this issue is a paladin walking into a regent`s court and identifying

everyone in the room who is evil - well that would violate his moral
code in just about any set of circumstances I can think of.

If hes the paladin of a civil libertarian god, maybe. AFAIC, the inquisition is a good organization, driving out the evils which will corrupt a society from within. The purpose of the paladin having such as power as detect evil is precisely so that in a circumstance like a court, he can be aware who is his enemy. Its easy enough to mask alignment (its a 2nd level spell and its effect lasts 24 hours), so its not like youve given a window
into everyone`s hearts.

Failing to identify the evil individuals in the room is the violation of the
code here.

The spell description, upon which the power is based, is binary. One is
evil or not evil. I dont find that very helpful, with the possible exception of the cleric. Without making recorse to the Book of Hallowed Might again, certainly the DM can go by the numeric descriptors in the spell listing and modify them by the circumstances. They offer level as a modifier. How evil is the character (roughly, if not with numeric precision), and what is he actually doing. The spell calls for pretty vague answers, and it should not be so reliable that a player can run to the PHB and try to calculate the NPCs level based on his aura in one encounter.
Vague descriptions lend themselves to interpretations by the DM.

One of my favorite examples of this kind of power is seen at the begining of
Phantom Menace, when Obi Wan Kenobi senses something wrong, but the feeling
is “elsewhere, elusive”. Yeah, the very powerful evil master mind is just
that. These are his lackies.

One could adopt the notion of alignments extending into one another, so that
like a Christian theologian, you could still find evil (original sin) in a
generally good person. Only the perfect character radiates no evil.
Perhaps every time the paladin checks someone out he detects low grade evil.
Common pettiness, selfishness, pride, and envy all regsister a faint evil.
In order for someone to stand out from the noise they need to be actively
evil, not just willing to be brutal when occasion presents itself.

Another way to look at this is that everyone is neutral unless activly doing
something. Consider the fellow who would not shirk to knock down an old
lady who was in his way. Give him the slightest cause and he will draw
weapons and kill you. You happen upon him sleeping by the road side (this
is the kind of thing people used to do all the time, but adventurers never
seem to do). Does he radiate evil? He may not have done harm to anyone for
days, because no one provoked him. Hes not thinking anything, hes asleep.

Now consider the Neutral character who is activly performing an evil deed,
or at least an act that will clearly do harm. He has sufficient
justification for his purposes, but he totally lacks compassion in this
matter. Does he radiate evil?

If you go into a court and detect evil, you`re going to find out who is up
to no good, but failed to mask their alignment. There are three stages to
the detection process. Use them all. The general who does not bother to
take prisoners, despite the general convention to do so, may radiate evil,
but it may be generalized and not specific. Off the battlefield he may
engage in no specific evil acts.

Dim and Faint readings ought to be common enough that they are par for the
course. At the next level evil may be detectable, but not specific. Or it
may be specific but difficult to relate to what you observe. “you have a
vison of a battle, its a nasty business and no quarter is being given” tells
you something, but you don`t know whether the general in the room is a
butcher, or whether the chancellor over there is planning to thow the
eastern marches into war. Is it past or future? Who committed what
specific evil act?

This isn`t an ohm-meter of evil.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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10

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a paladin’s Detect Evil ability is not very useful in a court setting. Consider an assassination random event; Should the paladin lock up the castle and go around detecting evil., he would eventually get a list of suspects (evil people), but there is no guarantee that any of those suspects actually has anything to do with the attempt. If your assassin is a chaotic good character that considers himself a freedom fighter, he might feel more than justified in taking out a perceived tyrant for the greater good of it all. If paladins can break into an orog lair and kill everyone there on the ground that they’re warlike monsters that would have done the same if they had the opportunity and STILL remain lawful good and guiltless…

Being evil does not equate with being guilty. Considering the sheer amount of plots and secrets going around the average Cerilian court, there isn’t much a paladin could do with that kind of information.

11

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jun 29 2003, 12:40 PM
[b] IMO it’s needless tinkering. Paladins have always had this ability and there is no real reason presented to remove it.

Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this ability is like a search without probable cause. Also using the ability requires concentrating and since it’s a spell-like ability it does generate an attack of opportunity.
[/b]

Completely your opinion… :smiley:

What I always wanted to know (O.K., it might be of topic), but if a spell-like ability is activated mentally (you only need to think of it, no gestures or something), how do they provoke an attack of opportunity? Your “victim” does not really recognize what you’re doing, or not? :huh:

12

If a spell-like ability is activated mentally (you only need to think of it, no gestures or something), how do they provoke an attack of opportunity? Your “victim” does not really recognize what you’re doing, or not?

I always pictured it as a short period of internal reflection and then a mental “push” - thus your focus is entirely internal and not on the threats around you: “He’s not moving - get him!”.

Or more grotesquely - how aware are you of your surroundings when you are straining for a really big poo? :blink:

CM
(Today I will mostly be attempting to get myself banned from the forums :unsure: )

13

Originally posted by CMonkey@Jul 3 2003, 12:51 PM
CM
(Today I will mostly be attempting to get myself banned from the forums :unsure: )

all you have to do is ask :slight_smile:

arjan

14

Generating an attack of opportunity doesn’t mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can’t move up and attack. B)

15

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jul 3 2003, 04:35 PM
[b] Generating an attack of opportunity doesn’t mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can’t move up and attack. B) [/b]

ThatI did understand, but how does the opponent knows, that he can use his attack of opportunity?

Well, the argument: "Look, he stares, hit him…! makes sense to me…

16

Basically when engaged in melee 2 characters are eyeing each other sensing an opening. It doesn’t have to be an overt opening, just one that a combatant would sense. There wouldn’t be any discussion involved since only the character in melee reach would have the opportunity to act - i.e., someone across the room wouldn’t be able to point it out to him.

17

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I believe someone using a spell-like ability is vulnerable to an attack of opportunity because they must let their guard down to concentrate on using the ability, thus lessening their defensive capability. Any situation in which a defender must let their guard down can result in an attack of opportunity.
Ok, let me weigh in on the detect evil thing. Imo, keep it simple. Detect evil should do exactly as the spell states; no more, no less. It detects creatures or objects of evil alignment. Unless you’re dealing with a cleric, outsider, undead, or elemental, a creature’s evil power is very generalized and doesn’t give much of a clue to the creature’s true power. Consider that any evil-aligned creature (not of the types listed above) of HD/lvl 1-9 gives off only a faint aura, and those of lvl 10 all the way to 24 character levels still give off only a moderate aura! So NPCs of evil persuasion must be well into the epic levels to command a strong aura of evil power. And an overwhelming aura- forget it for any mortal non-cleric :lol: So, as you can see, detect evil doesn’t give a whole lot of info on how big a threat a creature might be.
Instead, the purpose of the paladin’s detect evil ability is to have a kind of early-warning radar system to identify potential enemies in unfamiliar territory or settings. Paladins are almost always obvious to the villians; therefore, the paladin must have a way to immediately identify potential threats before he gets a knife in his backside. However, this kind of info is primarily only of use to the paladin and those allies who unquestioningly trust his judgement. A palidin is unlikely to walk into a court and immediately call out all the bad guys in front of everyone, or even to the regent behind closed doors for the simple reason that the palidin may not be believed, and his naming of names may not be appreciated.
After all, the regent in this example doesn’t have the luxury of consulting the Player’s Handbook, reading over the paladin class description and detect evil spell, and then coming to the logical conclusion that the paladin must be correct. Unfortunately, we GMs and players engage in this kind of metagame thinking way too much. The paladin names names, and the DM figures he has no choice but for his NPC regent to act accordingly on the paladin’s statements; after all, it’s coming from a paladin, right? And everyone knows they don’t lie. Or do they?
Fact is, most people of Cerilia, even pious ones, aren’t all that familiar with what a paladin can and can’t exactly do. If the DM puts himsel inside the head of our regent facing this diabolical dilemma of a paldin naming his most trusted seneschel as evil swine, the regent will react as any normal human being would- emotionally and illogically. The heavier the emotional investment the regent has in his advisor or whatever, the less likely he will be prepared to accept the palidin’s accusation(s). There is also the matter of the regent’s pride, or the fact that he hears similar accusations about this and that courtier every day; so why should the paladin be taken any more seriously? There are a hundred different factors that could come into play, meaning each such situation needs to be role-played out. But on the whole, unless the paladin has the ear of the regent who’s court he has just scanned to pick out evil-doers one, two, and three, he is probably best served by keeping his mouth shut and the information to himself and his comrades, lest he commit a serious diplomatic faux pas.
And as has already been mentioned, any villain worth his salt is going to take precautions against detection. After all, paladins aren’t the only ones who can cast detect evil.

18

An attack of opportunity is what it says, and not any mystical action; when you use a spell-like ability, drink a potion, or otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, as the phrase implies, you provoke someone to attack you, since now you leave an opening that you previously did not!

Consider the following situation… When a paladin tries to detect evil, he is not paying attention to incoming blows, but to identifying any source of evil, thus distracting him from combat. Any combatant can realise when an opening is made as easilly as you can realise that someone does not focus his eyes on you, for example. If you were drinking a potion, you would raise the vial to your lips, not paying much attention to your opponent, since you have to raise your chin as well… And so on!

19

Originally posted by Ariadne+Jul 3 2003, 05:34 PM–></span><table border=‘0’ align=‘center’ width=‘95%’ cellpadding=‘3’ cellspacing=‘1’><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Jul 3 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id=‘QUOTE’> <!–QuoteBegin–irdeggman@Jul 3 2003, 04:35 PM
[b] Generating an attack of opportunity doesn’t mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can’t move up and attack. B) [/b]

ThatI did understand, but how does the opponent knows, that he can use his attack of opportunity?

Well, the argument: "Look, he stares, hit him…! makes sense to me… [/b][/quote]
sorry for the test posts in the thread, but i have to try to get rid of the embedded html tags.

Arjan

20

Originally posted by CMonkey@Jun 29 2003, 07:31 AM
[b] I really think a section on the different paladin’s codes would be a valuable addition to the BRCS.

CM. [/b]

Good point.

This is something best handled in the Atlas, which is including a write up on the different temples. Ariadne, since you’ve already done substantial work on Cuircean’s churches how about adding something concerning paladins? Which temples support paladins, how their code of conduct differs/is the same - something along those lines would fit in really well.