Aebrynis is not Toril.
In Toril my understanding is that the predecessor of Mystra either made the weave or was very much part of it - thus her ability to deny the weave to others (Shar excluded).
In Aebrynis by contrast my understanding is that mebhaighl comes from within the world / is generated by it - Vorynn and now Ruornil merely watch over it and try to maintain the separation of Aebrynis and the Shadow World.
Of course, Ruornil is the god of mysteries and secrets - so good luck keeping secrets from him 
Whether Ruornil would simply give the information to one of his priests is of course another matter - I always preferred suggesting to players where the answer lay - the idea being that the god would deal with the stuff they couldn’t but that they had to do some of the work to answer their questions too - they are talking to a god not to wikipedia!
No. He has no power over the innate powers of other gods.
Even if we assumed that Ruornil had the ability to mess with anyone’s use of magic, the gods don’t use magic. They use divine abilities.
But let’s go further. Ruornil can’t take away anyone’s use of magic. We know this because he has instituted the Five Oaths and have humans police the improper use of magic. If necromancy and inter-wizard conflict and the rest bothered him, and he had the power to do it, he could just withdraw the magical ability of those offenders. Since he doesn’t, its quite reasonable to argue that he can’t and almost certainly proper to argue he won’t.
He would certainly be a wimpy god of magic if the other gods could just use magic without his tacid approval at least.
They don’t they use divine ability. And when they grant their followers spells, they grant them divine spells. Ruornil has no influence over such matters, even if divine magic is called magic, Ruornil’s area of power concerns arcane magic, which as I consult the dusty shelves of 2nd edition, was really different than priestly magic. Its clear that this sphere of power concerns wizards and arcana, because of the many descriptions, the granted powers, and the like.
Consulting the 2nd edition source, the Rulebook, on page 76, above the Ruornil entry, right across from his name in bold letters, Ruornil Lessor God. Consult with me now the Book of Priestcraft, p 59 below his name and titles, again in bold lettering Lessor Power of the Outlands. Finally, these designations of greater, lessor, and demi-gods goes back to 1st edition, and so is not some 3.whatever thing. It has been common to all dieties since the 1st publication of the Deities and Demigods cyclopedia. I’m not quite sure how you missed all that.
Ah ha! This business isn’t really about divine powers after all, you are just really fond of magic as a game effect. That’s fine, but its not part of the setting in the way you are describing it. Compared to FR, which you have rederenced, things work differently. True magic is wielded by several hundreds, and the numbers of wizards holding sources is knowlable in detail and these fellows are stat’d out, named, and described. Arcane magic wasn’t delivered to men by the gods, but by the elves, who practice it routinely without any approval from the gods, nor do the elves acknowledge the gods at all. If you like to make magic a central aspect of your campaign, that’s great. But I prefer to reduce the influence of magic and focus instead on bloodlines, blood powers, and regency as the most amazing and awe inspiring game effects. Those with Birthrights should be the most amazing characters, not wizards. That’s my dipence.
No. He has no power over the innate powers of other gods.
He does in my gaming style, and maybe others too.
Even if we assumed that Ruornil had the ability to mess with anyone’s use of magic, the gods don’t use magic. They use divine abilities.
A god or goddess of magic (again in my opinion) can take away the magic of other lesser beings. A god could also concievably have their magic blocked by the head of the patheon.
What you are missing though is that the post is about the ability to divine information about the future, and in the case of this post it was referring directly to the Lv7 Vision spell being able to access these dieties for divination which the spell does.
The rest of it is what an individual DM wants it to be. In my game, whatever campaign, the gods & goddesses of magic have control over the magic of any being diety or not in thier patheon/world. Period.
They don’t they use divine ability. And when they grant their followers spells, they grant them divine spells. Ruornil has no influence over such matters, even if divine magic is called magic, Ruornil’s area of power concerns arcane magic, which as I consult the dusty shelves of 2nd edition, was really different than priestly magic. Its clear that this sphere of power concerns wizards and arcana, because of the many descriptions, the granted powers, and the like.
Except that the Royal Forum is a part of the site where 3.whatever doesn’t necessarily own all discussion. I have posted it before, but for you it appears that I need to do so again.
I am POSTING TO A 2ND EDITION sense of a thread. You & I don’t have to agree when it comes to the nature of magic Arcane/Divine are 3.whatever concepts, which don’t matter to the point I was trying to make about divinations at all, which is what I was posting to on the thread about “Divination”.
Now if you feel this needs to degenerate into what or what not the diety magic can or cannot accomplish, please start another thread and we can go there…I will post 2nd ed related answers to any part of that topic.
Consulting the 2nd edition source, the Rulebook, on page 76, above the Ruornil entry, right across from his name in bold letters, Ruornil Lessor God. Consult with me now the Book of Priestcraft, p 59 below his name and titles, again in bold lettering Lessor Power of the Outlands.
Thanks…I was trying to find that data, and when I looked over the Book of Priestcraft it was late and I missed it. Thanks again.
Finally, these designations of greater, lessor, and demi-gods goes back to 1st edition, and so is not some 3.whatever thing. It has been common to all dieties since the 1st publication of the Deities and Demigods cyclopedia. I’m not quite sure how you missed all that.
I don’t know if I am missing something here, but I know that the Royal Library is supposed to allow all versions of the game. So the designation is part of a viable concept in the Royal Library, but wouldn’t be if I were posting into the 3.??? area.
Ah ha! This business isn’t really about divine powers after all, you are just really fond of magic as a game effect. That’s fine, but its not part of the setting in the way you are describing it. Compared to FR, which you have rederenced, things work differently.
All DM’s get to set up the game as they see fit. I keep magic consistent across the board, and even though Cerilia isn’t Faerun its magic permeates everything, and by extension I run it that way.
Feel free to run your game as you wish, but it is hardly that hard to understand if I want to keep all my magic consistent from campaign setting to campaigns setting, especially since I make extensive use of Spelljammer & Planescape. It all connects.
BTW where does it say that the magic of Cerilea is a unique type of magic???
But I prefer to reduce the influence of magic and focus instead on bloodlines, blood powers, and regency as the most amazing and awe inspiring game effects. Those with Birthrights should be the most amazing characters, not wizards. That’s my dipence.
It is painfully obvious that that is your style of play, and I respect your right to see it that way, but others like magic in our gaming, and would like to mention that it is an alternative to your “STYLE”. I am posting for those who might want some magic in their Birthright.
One final note, the nature of magic is also a uniquely DMable idea. The fact that divine magic and arcane (mage) magic exist in the same places, but are from two different types of sources doesn’t mutually exlude that the innate underlying motive force/power of magic isn’t the same.
The power for priests is granted by the gods on a daily basis, and stored in their minds. For mages their techniques allow them to imprint the spells power into their minds for use. So though their access to magic comes from two different techniques/skill sets, it doesn’t mean that the underlying magic that is created isn’t from the same underlying power structure.
Just my two cents on the nature of magic…
How about getting back to how divination can be worked into the game??
Later
When I quote 2nd edition materials, like the Book of Priestcraft, or the Birthright Rulebook, or the Complete Priest’s Handbook, or any other 2nd edition materials I own and frequently refer to, I would very much appreciate you not describing them as 3rd edition materials. Likewise references to 1st edition materials like Dieties and Demigods.
My answer was entirely 2nd edition based, and your claims to the contrary are quite tiresome.
Second, you are the one who departed from core Birthright principles in your post, apparently because keeping Farun seperate from Cerilia is too taxing. My objections to your post on Ruornil was entirely consistant with the Birthright setting, which last time I checked, was the basis for this board, not the Realms. My aside in my reply was admitedly my own take, but aside from confusing you, had nothing to do with my original objection.
You know, when you write stuff like:
So though their access to magic comes from two different techniques/skill sets, it doesn’t mean that the underlying magic that is created isn’t from the same underlying power structure.
its pretty evident you are arguing from something other than Birthright materials or even standard D&D cosmology.
BTW where does it say that the magic of Cerilea is a unique type of magic?
I refer you to page 4 of the Book of Magecraft “Fundamentals of Cerilian Magic.” You’ll find it right after secions “how to use this book” and “abbreviations and notations” because that’s where they started. Here you will find unique descriptions and rules for magic. Unique, as in they don’t appear on other settings, as in particular to the Birthright setting, as in not part of the D&D magic system. I note specifically the distinction between lessor and greater magic the connections between bloodlines and wizardry, realm magic, the importance of mebhaighl for spellcasting.
Completely ignoring the 2nd/3rd editon divide here;)
Hm, that’s something I haven’t really decided IMC. So just few thoughts here.
The Khinasi and the Rjurik seem to be the cultures where diviners are most common, the first because to my mind seers and diviners just fit perfectly when picturing an arabic setting. The Rjurik might seem a strange choice at first sight, but given their preoccupation with their fates (dooms), I guess that most Rjurik would consult a druid to read the signs before embarking on any major venture. Druids and/or wise woman as (spiritual) advisers divining the best course of action also fit my view of the Celtish and German cultures, even though the Druid spell list in the PHB does not really fulfill this role.
No idea regarding the Vos. I guess consulting the priests of Belinik is probably common, but culturally speaking I can’t recall any divinations or diviners featuring prominently in old Russian history or folklore, but my knowledge here is virtually non-existent anyway, so that doesn’t say much.
The Anuireans probably frown upon the use of divinations, at least IMC. I unified the Anuirean churches spiritually, though political divisions between different orders still exist, and modelled Anuirean religion after medieval Christianity.
Well, following this model, IIRC soothsayers and diviners are depicted in a very bad light in the bible and other religious texts, because trying to examine God’s will is at the very least bordering on blasphemy.
Quoting Macbeth, off the top of my hat: “Often times to win us to our harm, the instruments of evil tell us truths…”
Nevertheless, I’d say that diviners are common enough in Anuire and visited by commoner and noble alike, but these visits would be secretive, sort of like going to a brothel:
Many people go to a diviner, because the temptation to know the future is strong, but few would admit that they’ve done it.
:rolleyes:
My answer was entirely 2nd edition based, and your claims to the contrary are quite tiresome.
Second, you are the one who departed from core Birthright principles in your post, apparently because keeping Farun seperate from Cerilia is too taxing.
And this is the type of response anyone can expect when posting any type of idea contrary to your own.
Quite insulting really…what a b***.
I wasn’t claiming you viewpoint was 3.whatever. I was posting that you wanted this part of the site to be strictly limited to details as they relate to your choice of editions. Furthermore, what you expect it to exert undue editorial insight into ideas that are presented here, instead of a free willed exchanging and debate of ideas and gaming style.
I wouldn’t come within 10’ of your type of gaming style, and vica versa I’m sure.
You can expect me to continue to post though…so hello again.
core Birthright principles
Core principles are entirely within the preview of any DM as you well know, but it appears that you try to brow beat a concensus on any idea instead of offering up good debate points.
I am simply saying that I like consistnency in my magic system, and once again I thank you for the information about the location of the “Unique” nature of Birthright magic. Really.
Also the defining of Lesser, True, & Realm magic could just as easilly fit into my interpretation, as it does in your more “narrow” viewpoint. The section is talking about spell casters and not the nature of the magic being unique. I have seen and read about at least 3 other systems that use that same low, high, & epic magic. It is not unique per se…
It goes on at the back of the book on page 127 The Book of Priestcraft to mention Quest spells of epic level and other standard cleric spells that are part of the official spell lists for Cerilian Priests in any case.
In any case, of course I also assert my (and other DM’s) right as a DM to play it as I see it, and maybe post how I percieve it so other gamers can get…other…opinions.
This is about the thread specifically, and not the other debate.
Now back to the subject of this thread.
I was posting that the Lv 7 Vision spell could contact diety based forces on the outer planes, and with successful rolls, it would be used to acquire information that could lead to divining of the near future of a realm.
Also I continue to assert that other spells will yield similar results, and that there is a possiblity that as yet undisclosed (because I am working up the spell as we speak) for the ability to read the nature of the future to help prevent at least the worst of future events.
Of course your results as a player will vary from DM to DM, but the possibility exists.
The Khinasi and the Rjurik seem to be the cultures where diviners are most common, the first because to my mind seers and diviners just fit perfectly when picturing an arabic setting. The Rjurik might seem a strange choice at first sight, but given their preoccupation with their fates (dooms), I guess that most Rjurik would consult a druid to read the signs before embarking on any major venture. Druids and/or wise woman as (spiritual) advisers divining the best course of action also fit my view of the Celtish and German cultures, even though the Druid spell list in the PHB does not really fulfill this role.
I really like the detail. It is the type of depth I like when reading a thread. It offers up some details buried in vast pages of literature.
Thanks.
Later
:rolleyes:
While I am completely unaware of where you are from,
and not at all trying to be insulting, I was just
wondering what this means to you…this (:rolleyes:)
bit?
In most places I know of here in the United States and
Canada, it is a condescending gesture or a gesture
intending to express general displeasure or
exasperation.
No matter the intent, here where I am from it is an
adversarial expression at worst and at best one of
displeasure.
What does it mean where you are from?
— MatanThunder <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> :rolleyes:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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One of the Vos priests in our campaign uses bloodstains/patterns on ceremonial robes after a particularly nasty sacrifice. While they have the basic society and trappings of 12th and 13th century Rus and Kiev in our game, the fact that they serve Kriesha and Belinik, gives them the barbaric and fierce reputation in the campaign material (2e). I imaging that they can read entrails as well.
An Anuirean PC uses tarot like cards. Depending on whether the card is right side up or upside down can alter the meaning. She can get snapshots of the future, but only gives her enough details, like her husband is in danger or will be involved in a life or death fight, she can’t see the final outcome as it all depends on the other character.
In our campaign, when the Binsadans rode on Anuire (the WIZARD came out of hiatus), she appeared as the avatar of Leira (sp) and whipped up a furor with the more extremist Binsadans and later appeared as the white eagle of Avani and the Binsadans took it as a good omen to commence with the ride against Anuire (see the PS of Binsada for the prophecy of the Queen of Binsada standing before the Iron Throne).
*It’s not against the Wizard’s programming to impersonate a deity (or their avatar). Insert evil grin.
I think depending on the nature of the vision and the related event, should been more or less accurate; the more dangerous and all encompassing the event, the more accurate and direct the vision. The less dangerous or important, the more vague. The final outcome should never be predicted since characters can change the course of events.
On 4/16/07, MatanThunder <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> And this is the type of response anyone can expect when posting any type of idea contrary to your own.
> Quite insulting really…what a b***.
MatanThunder, please stop flaming people on this board. I understand
that youre very excited about what youre posting. Be a bit more
polite about it, and everyone will get along better.
And starring out your profanity doesn`t make you innocent, either.
–
Daniel McSorley
:rolleyes:
The word was Boor…not enough asterisks for the curse word.
AS to the inflamatory nature, I will try to keep it in neutral. I hope the mods are even handed here…seem like I wasn’t the only one having strong opinions.
Later
:rolleyes:
Rolleyes refers to the often…I am forced to defend my point of views about magic & game levels. It seems to be never ending, but each DM pretty much has their own style of play. Within the rules of course (2nd Ed rules).
I do try to get along.
Later
MatanThunder
No one objected to you claims on magic or game levels. Your statements were expressed as universal and contradicted the setting materials. You went so far as to ridicule the setting materials.
You also have a habit of pretending the conversation was really about something other than it was. There are two possible causes for this happening again, and again, and again, and neither is pretty.
:eek:
Your statements were expressed as universal and contradicted the setting materials. You went so far as to ridicule the setting materials.
Ridicule…NO…say that ANY DM or for that matter the PC’s (their input counts too) can fashion a magic system to fit their perceptions.
I won’t bother to repost about your erroneous views on the “Uniqueness” of the Cerilia magic. It is YOUR (and maybe some others) interpretation of the magic of Cerilia. Play it as you see it.
Any mage from another paralell prime material Plane would find that their magic would work in Cerilia (in one of the designated power levels).
There is source material that goes into detials about magic levels on different prime material planes (one is the High Level Options). It is of course just my opinion as a DM of a lot of years. You can play it as you see it of course.
I want to get back to the issue of the thread though.
Some of the issues about magic seemed directed at what magic could do in the vein of Divination.
With the existing spells there are possible uses of spells that could allow a regent to gain very great insight into the upcoming events. This information can be purely from spells or form divine sources. The idea is that the DM may have to sacrafice some of his/her ultimate power in the game, in order to satisfy the nature of divination magic in the game.
Not many will like this statement, but this is how I feel…and have DM’d one Cleric of Rournil Regent in my DMing.
Later
Hmm, here is where some of the contradictions in the various published materials leave us poor players and DM’s afloundering. Cerilia doesn’t fit the standard magic level system - its completely unrestricted in level (Realm magic makes the Faerun/Athas L10 magic look like a childs hobby) however it does clearly make magic heavily restricted in accessibility when it specifies that you can only use ‘true magic’ (i.e. standard wizardly magic in any other setting) if you have a bloodline, or are elven (with a few others but those are the relevant ones).
It’s a DM preference to play with the setting as written of course - but a non-elven PC who arrives somehow from another setting should be restricted to lesser magic under the specific setting rules as written - they simply don’t meet the eligibility requirements to cast true magic.
This is a completely different type of restriction to the standard ‘max L7 spells in this setting’ restriction mentioned in a number of rulebooks issued by TSR around the time - the changes to the way that magic worked were used to make the setting distinctive (again much like Athas) although this was more a fluff change in many ways than a crunch change as they didn’t make the logical connection of tying the maximum spell that could be cast in a province to the maximum source level of the province…
Likewise if a standard mage traveled to Athas they would find that they defiled areas they were standing in when casting spells unless they learnt the preserving path. The setting has specific rules that depart from the general magic system of standard D&D / AD&D / 3e / etc magic.
I would note that in general setting specific rules should, imho, trump general system rules, as these rules are specifically designed as house rules to force a certain style of play / fix problems perceived by the setting designer / permit certain scenarios in the setting not possible under the normal rules.
One reason for describing these realms as cut-off from the standard FR / Krynn / Greyhawk system was to prevent players crying foul when their mages suddenly lost a large chunk of power on entry and other characters weren’t scratched. (Krynn was slightly restricted with its black/red/white robes but you could always play a rogue mage - the system allowed the standard mage it just strongly suggested against using it, BR and Athas on the other hand changed the usual system of magic to ban them). Spelljammer had a ret-con for priests of a specific deity, you could always do something similar for mages (i.e. your mage has 3 hours per level before they lose the ability to cast true magic, find an awnie to bloodtheft fast…)
Good for you, it depends on DM’ing style; an unexpected divination can play havoc with a planned game if the DM isn’t expecting it and that could ruin the fun for all involved (including the diviner). A bit like role-playing a Sherlock Holmes style mystery game to find a PC pulling out their DNA analysis kit would ruin the fun there…
It depends a lot on how good a DM is at playing ‘off the cuff’ some love it, some hate it. Personally I prefer to do a lot of planning so that everything is consistent and coherent which I find is lost in a free-wheeling campaign, diff’rent strokes and all that.
In a long standing campaign where divination is common a DM can tie any potential divinations into their planning, so on day 1 of a plot they rule that divination may reveal that ‘dark forces are gathering’, on day 10 that certain players are involved and a broad outline of what is going on (troop movements, adventure action) and so on, thereby always knowing at what point the key information can be divined and how various people might react to it, so they don’t have to redo lots of preparation etc b/c a spell-casting character suddenly says they are doing a divination.
I would say that I think that this is an area where the diviner and the DM need to talk beforehand - it would be very unfair for a player to spend ages designing a PC and building up to a desired spell to then be told ‘hmm, I don’t like that spell, I’m changing it’.
In general I would eliminate all ‘absolute knowledge’ spells in a campaign, make any divination less accurate as it tries to predict events further into the future, make natural events much easier to predict than the choices of people, make sure that diviners know that where they divine the possible actions of a person, those actions are only a probability at the time - free will and all that.
Similarly for any divination there should be a counter, quite possibly a non-magic one - otherwise divination becomes overwhelmingly powerful in anything except a pure hack ‘n’ slash game as it leads to perfect information, the standard BR mechanic of very few spell casters actually would amplify the imbalance - if everyone has a flawless diviner then they neutralise each other, if only one person does they are unopposed.
Just to offer my two pence, arguing that since Ruornil ought to restrict magic and that because he doesn’t, he is incapable of doing it, is rather like suggesting that since God is all-powerful and all-good, why doesn’t he end suffering and war?
Perhaps the new gods are distant, like those of Eberron, and refuse to get involved because they fear a repeat of Mount Deismaar. Maybe Ruornil doesn’t restrict magic because he doesn’t want to diminish the effect of his divine laws and give his human followers any reason not to prosecute aberrant mages.
Just some thoughts.
At 03:37 AM 4/22/2007, Thelandrin wrote:
>Just to offer my two pence, arguing that since Ruornil ought to
>restrict magic and that because he doesn`t, he is incapable of doing
it, is rather like suggesting that since God is all-powerful and
all-good, why doesn`t he end suffering and war?
Because then he`d have to throw away all his giant, godly d20s…
Perhaps the new gods are distant, like those of Eberron, and refuse
to get involved because they fear a repeat of Mount Deismaar. Maybe
Ruornil doesnt restrict magic because he doesnt want to diminish
the effect of his divine laws and give his human followers any
reason not to prosecute aberrant mages.
Ive always like the interpretation that BR fits right into the rest of the D&D cosmology. Same planar structure, same extensive list of pantheons, same list of prime material planes of existence. The only reason Aebrynis magic system works a little differently is that it
is in a sort of adjunctive prime material plane separated from the
rest of the planar realms by the Shadow World, and maybe some other
cosmologically unique features that act as a barrier. In this
interpretation all magical energy on the material plane comes from
the outer and inner planes, and those who wield those energies do so
through some sort of connection to the planes. BRs divine spellcasters have a connection through their respective deities, which is why there are no generalist clerics (when such generalists were often assumed to be the standard in most D&D settings when BR was produced.) Arcane magic, on the other hand, is very limited on Aebrynis, because the "blockage" of the planar system prevents most active magical powers from operating. In effect, arcane magic must be powered by the magical power of the prime material plane alone. Thus, only those with some sort of extraordinary connection to the land itself are able to command the full gammut of arcane magics. The Sidhe are themselves the equivalent of minor deities (more like spirits) given their immortality, and thats what allow
them full access to arcane, but not divine magic. Scions are able to
utilize arcane magics because their connection to Deismaar “grounds”
them in the material plane, providing a connection to the prime
material planar energies that is profound enough to give them access.
I bring this up here to point out that Ruornils magical "sphere" isnt really a “general” one. That is, he might be described not so
much as THE god of ALL magic but as A god of Aebrynis magic. Hes
described in language more like the former than the latter because
Cerilians dont really know about any other access to magic other than that he and to a lesser extent Avani represent. Hence, Ruornils magical control is of “sources” and other very material
magical influences. He could not directly affect divination on a
whole, however, because that is one of the magical energies that
trickle into Aebrynis from the other planes. He might influence it,
but he couldn`t turn it off any more than an electrician can prevent
a bolt of lightening from striking. (Though Cuiraecen would, of
course, have a better shot at that.)
Gary
It’s not my thread, but thanks for all thre relevant posts.
I learn a little each time one of us shares, even though we may not agree with each other.
Good for you, it depends on DM’ing style; an unexpected divination can play havoc with a planned game if the DM isn’t expecting it and that could ruin the fun for all involved (including the diviner). A bit like role-playing a Sherlock Holmes style mystery game to find a PC pulling out their DNA analysis kit would ruin the fun there…
I (and by extension) & my players didn’t have that much problem with it. It worked for us, and I agree with some of your ideas on DM vs Diviner co operation outside of the Role Playing part of the game.
As a final note as a DM I have used this one when you have a Divination prone PC in your game. I would allow for the forces that (sometimes personalluy) had control of a random event also have access to divining magic. This would make any divinations moot and put the whole thing back on an even random footing.
(i.e…The first diviner gets the heads up and alters their upcoming reactions, then the counter force divines the changes and changes their reactions, then the original diviner finds (through divinations) that there a changes in the upcoming encounter and makes changes…etc…ad nauseum. It would also drain a PC regent of resources as they are constantly making changes. It could lead to the last diviner winning, but there in lies a challenge for the PC regent…until he divines if he will come up with the winning strategy…then the counter force does the same…you get the picture.)
A couple of points & questions regarding issues not specific to the thread.
- If by some fluke Elminster made a trip to Cerilia (in chase of an evil Faerunian lich lets say) where would you place him on the power tree of magic???
For me I can only see him as capable of Realm Magic levels of power, even though he would still have to have the ley line powers in order to due so.
- Since Rournil is the “God of Magic”, who else would hold sway over what passes for the weave in Cerilia?? Who elses patheon states specifically they have a connection to magic???
Just asking because of the post about his (percieved) limited role in magic.
Later
Avani is specifically listed as a goddess of magic, as well as knowledge.
MatanThunder schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3564
> MatanThunder wrote:
>
>
> …
> I (and my by extension) & my players didn`t have that much problem with it. It worked for us, and I agree with some of your ideas on DM vs Diviner co operation outside of the Role Playing part of the game.
> As a final note as a DM I have used this one when you have a Divination prone PC in your game. I would allow for the forces that (sometimes personalluy) had control of a random event also have access to divining magic. This would make any divinations moot and put the whole thing back on a moot footing.
> (i.e…The first diviner gets the heads up and alters their upcoming reactions, then the counter force divines the changes and changes their reactions, then the original diviner finds (through divinations) that there a changes in the upcoming encounter and makes changes…etc…ad nauseum. It would also drain a PC regent of resources as they are constantly making changes. It could lead to the last diviner winning, but there in lies a challenge for the PC regent…until he divines if he will come up with the winning strategy…then the counter force does the same…you get the picture.)
>
So instead of limiting what divination can give you by making them
somewhat less powerful and more mysterious you give the players the full
power of divination exactly as described in the spell - only to make
that knowlegde useless because the oppostion also divines and changes
what the players have divined? 
> A couple of points & questions regarding issues not specific to the thread.
>
> 1) If by some fluke Elminster made a trip to Cerilia (in chase of an evil Faerunian lich lets say) where would you place him on the power tree of magic???
>
> For me I can only see him as capable of Realm Magic levels of power, even though he would still have to have the ley line powers in order to due so.
>
Without being a sidhelien or having a bloodline how could he do so? And
even moreso how would he do realmmagic without controlling any sources?
Only lesser magic available to him in my opinion when he arrives.
> 2) Since Rournil is the “God of Magic”, who else would hold sway over what passes for the weave in Cerilia?? Who elses patheon states specifically they have a connection to magic???
> Just asking because of the post about his (percieved) limited role in magic.
> Later
>
Cerilia is only one continent. The world is Aebrynnis.
Being the god of magic does not mean that that god has absolute power
over magic or the abilities of every creature and being using something
similar to magic.
In the 2E books the limits of Ruornils power were obvious to me in that
his priests (specialty priests as all priests in 2E Birthright) had the
powers only as a Magician of if I remember right half their priest
level - not as a wizard of half their class level.
Ruornil is also a “lesser” and less powerful god because he is a god
without a whole culture worshipping him - unless for example Haelyn who
is the patron of the Anuireans and their pantheon or Avani who is of the
khir-aften-el-Arrasi, Eric of the Rjurik and so on.
Isn’t it the case everywhere that when I pick up a sword, my enemy either also picks up a sword or picks up a shield? Shouldn’t this be the case in divinations too? It would seem obvious that every ruler of a domain would have some interest in divinations and given the fact that divination is not true magic, there should be no shortage of diviners around to fill this need.
Whether I hide from the divinations of my enemies or whether I simply counter divine to see what he’s up to, this comes down to a game of intelligence just as much as if I had my spies looking after him while he had spies looking after me.
Indeed I am quite sure that realms that can afford to do so have both a spy network and diviner or several to share information and help each other fill in gaps.
There will be times when you’re opposition might have superior divination (or espionage) ability and times when you have the advantage, but I must imagine that for the most part, some rough parity exists for most participants.