Doors and magic

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Is it just me or is there a problem with the Knock spell (as well as
reduce/enlarge)
in that it completely defeats the idea of castles and strongholds. After
all a simply
1st or 3rd level Magician even can open the doors of a big castle and
then wait
while the troops rush in. Considering that a castle is a big and major
invenstment
I simply cant see anyone building them even in a low-magic world of Cerilia.... Im going to somehow limit Knock to small locks and not barred doors as
well as
making the spell touch and increasing casting time to a few rounds…
That should
at least make castles viable again. How I should deal with reduce I
don`t know.
Any ideas ?

Cobos

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2

At 02:01 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Sindre wrote:

>Is it just me or is there a problem with the Knock spell (as well as
>reduce/enlarge) in that it completely defeats the idea of castles and
>strongholds. After all a simply 1st or 3rd level Magician even can open
>the doors of a big castle and then wait while the troops rush in.
>Considering that a castle is a big and major invenstment I simply can`t

see anyone building them even in a low-magic world of Cerilia…
Im going to somehow limit Knock to small locks and not barred doors as >well as making the spell touch and increasing casting time to a few >rounds... That should at least make castles viable again. How I should >deal with reduce I dont know.
Any ideas ?

It says in the spell description that it doesn`t work on “barred gates or
similar impediments (such as a portcullis)” so the major egress to a castle
is still safe assuming the castle builder had the foresight to employ that
kind of door. Given the existence of such magics, it would be sensible for
all exterior castle doors to have some sort of barred gate on them. The
size of the door is also limited by the caster level (10 sq. feet/level) so
the 3rd level magician can only open a single, one-person door. Attackers
charging into a defensive stronghold through a little entrance one or two
at a time would probably soon fill up the entrance with their own bodies…

This is kind of apropos of nothing (the opening doors stuff reminded me of
it) but one of the things that occurred to me recently is that in 3e one
can break bars, but we can no longer bend them… There are a couple of
ways to handle that sort of thing (a check with a particular DC seems the
most apt) but in thinking about this and a few other issues I included more
“saving throws” to experiment around with based on the other three ability
scores; strength, intelligence and charisma. Im calling them, respectively, power, knowledge and luck, and Im fiddling around with
applications for them. Power will be used to do things like bend bars,
knowledge will cover checks not specifically covered by knowledge skill
checks and luck… well, I havent really decided what I want to use luck for yet. While strength, intelligence or charisma checks might work for many of the same situations that one might apply these additional saves to, couldnt one say the same thing of the dexterity-reflex,
constitution-fortitude and wisdom-will relationship? There might certainly
be situations in which one would still go with an ability score check, of
course, but it seems like there should be some sort of progressive save for
all six ability scores rather than just three.

Gary

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3

Gary wrote:

> At 02:01 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Sindre wrote:
>
>> Is it just me or is there a problem with the Knock spell (as well as
>> reduce/enlarge) in that it completely defeats the idea of castles and
>> strongholds. After all a simply 1st or 3rd level Magician even can open
>> the doors of a big castle and then wait while the troops rush in.
>> Considering that a castle is a big and major invenstment I simply can`t

see anyone building them even in a low-magic world of Cerilia…
Im going to somehow limit Knock to small locks and not barred doors as >> well as making the spell touch and increasing casting time to a few >> rounds... That should at least make castles viable again. How I should >> deal with reduce I dont know.
Any ideas ?

It says in the spell description that it doesnt work on "barred gates or > similar impediments (such as a portcullis)" so the major egress to a > castle > is still safe assuming the castle builder had the foresight to employ > that > kind of door. Given the existence of such magics, it would be > sensible for > all exterior castle doors to have some sort of barred gate on them. The > size of the door is also limited by the caster level (10 sq. > feet/level) so > the 3rd level magician can only open a single, one-person door. > Attackers > charging into a defensive stronghold through a little entrance one or two > at a time would probably soon fill up the entrance with their own > bodies.... > > This is kind of apropos of nothing (the opening doors stuff reminded > me of > it) but one of the things that occurred to me recently is that in 3e one > can break bars, but we can no longer bend them.... There are a couple of > ways to handle that sort of thing (a check with a particular DC seems the > most apt) but in thinking about this and a few other issues I included > more > "saving throws" to experiment around with based on the other three > ability > scores; strength, intelligence and charisma. Im calling them,
respectively, power, knowledge and luck, and Im fiddling around with > applications for them. Power will be used to do things like bend bars, > knowledge will cover checks not specifically covered by knowledge skill > checks and luck... well, I havent really decided what I want to use luck
for yet. While strength, intelligence or charisma checks might work for
many of the same situations that one might apply these additional
saves to,
couldnt one say the same thing of the dexterity-reflex, > constitution-fortitude and wisdom-will relationship? There might > certainly > be situations in which one would still go with an ability score check, of > course, but it seems like there should be some sort of progressive > save for > all six ability scores rather than just three. > > Gary > I do like the 3 save system you have in 3rd ed and would simply if I have to do a strength check to bend bars. Set a DC and ask the character to roll d20 and add his strength bonus... I dont have my 3rd ed books here so I couldnt check the exact spelling on the Knock spell, but the point I had in mind was that strong houses more than castles should also not be opened by 1-3rd lvl magic. Take small stone mansion without windows on the first floor. Or at least not windows that cant be barrred properly. Just the kind of house a local
noble with a bit more money than subsidence who lives in danger zone
would build. Examples include anyone living next to any humanoid realm
where small 5-50 man raiding parties are rather frequent. In this kind
of enviroment coming in one and one would give the attack higher
casaulties, but the defender usually is not trained enough anyway to
withstand it for long with an open door.

And I cant remember any limitations on the reduce spell that would make any door or similar resistant to its effect. And reducing any door by
about 10% or more should make it pretty easy to push aside right ?

Cobos

PS: Sorry for the bad formatting in the original mail

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4

Castles and strongholds should be counter-magiced. Remeber, you use a depth
charge to stop a submarine, and anti-aircraft gun to stop a bomber. Defence
is cheaper and more plentiful than offence. Gary mentioned how to use the
spell description could be used by defenders. Something I have mentioned in
regards to spells before is the combination of spells and skill rolls.
Knock may not be 100% effective. Combined with the Open Locks skill, it may
provide a +15 arcane bonus. It also only disables two kind of security
features per casting. So, a lock, a bar, and a log laid up against the back
requires two castings of knock. Also, if knock spells are a problem,
someone was probabaly hired to cast an arcane lock (a permenant spell) some
time ago. Arcane lock would add a +10 to the DC of the security.

Doors should be observed by a watchman in a house of the security concious.
The watch may be sleeping, but should be awakened by the bar falling off and
the log tipping over. He has a round to act while the second knock spell is
cast. Perhaps he just lifts the hood to a lantern and re-bars the door.
Remember that real security is provided by people, not magic.

The truely security concious, those living in genuine strongholds, don`t
even use doors. They have drawbridges, portcullis, and even gatehouses, all
of which are immune to knock.

Reduce - can`t damage the thing being reduced. If a door is fixed at three
places (the hinges) to a post, how can the door shrink without ripping out
(damaging) the hinges? If the whole post and lentle is attacked to the
house, it likewise cannot be reduced.

Specific materials, or the presence of specific items may also possess their
own spell resistance. Perhaps fennel adds a +10 to the DC of attempts to
magical penerate a door. Or in cases were skill checks aren`t combined with
spells, it withers and gives off a particular scent. Its now useless, but
might allow the spellcaster and those on the inside to smell the consumed
fennel and respond. Agate is known to provide safe sleep. Does it aid in
the security of doors? Chrysolite, Malachite, and Sunstone are each reputed
to ward off spells. Could they be installed on a door to prevent knock
spells or other magic? Perhaps only yellow sunstone arranged above and
below the door handle has such an effect.

If Nesirie is the protector of families, homes, and doors, perhaps an icon
or statue of Nesirie that can “see” the door has an adverse effect on
attempts to enter.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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5

At 09:57 AM 8/26/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Castles and strongholds should be counter-magiced.

There has been at least one Dragon article on this particular
subject. Sorry, but I don`t remember which issue… For the most part
the one I remember focused on non-magical counters by adding a few
“typical” things that one could do to prevent magic from penetrating into a
castle. Lead is typically used as a counter to x-ray vision, and the
article presumed that it could also counter teleportation and most other
forms of magical intrusion, so lead would be incorporated into the cement
for the castle walls.

Given the relative cost of building a castle and their strategic importance
it seems reasonable that the people doing the construction would have a few
magic items here and there to counter the commonly available magics.

Of course, D&D castles almost always use real world medieval castles as
their basis. Even in a low magic setting like BR, however, the very nature
of the magics involved would influence how castles are built. In many ways
the existence of magic–and with it magical creatures–would fundamentally
change the architecture. Flying monsters or soldiers with the ability to
fly, for instance, is not very uncommon even in BR (especially if one uses
battlespells.) The large, open courtyards that are a feature of real world
castles would be a nice place for a unit of invaders to land and engage the
garrison so they probably wouldnt happen much. Castles would probably be completely enclosed and large portions would be underground. Tunnelling magics still exist, but they are generally slower and not as prevalent as flying in D&D, so its not hard to imagine the classical castle being sort
of reversed with the equivalent of the central keep acting as the first
line of defense protecting a system of underground fortified tunnels and
other typical “dungeon” features that spread out underneath it.

Also, besiegers cant starve a garrison that has just a few priests available to create food & water and to heal the sick when disease inevitably takes its toll on a besieged castle. And unlike other kinds of magic, divine magic isnt restricted in BR, so theres not reason to think priests wouldnt be available in most cases. A prolonged sieges probably
wouldn`t happen in the same way the Rulebook suggests. (-1 castle
level/turn.) A D&D castle would probably be more about trying to keep a
single, high-level character out or at least warning the occupants that
such a character had infiltrated because a 15th level character can be more
dangerous than many 1st level warriors.

Gary

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6

A lot of spells identify lead, and other metals, as being harder to
penetrate than stone, and of course wood. Passwall, for instance, only
works through wood and stone.

The Greeks used metal peices to join stone blocks, and the Romans used iron
scrap in fill between walls. That alone would complicate spells. Taking
the effort to expand this use of metal in construction would further create
problems for spellcasting through or against walls.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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7

On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 22:50, Gary wrote:

At 02:01 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Sindre wrote:

>Is it just me or is there a problem with the Knock spell (as well as
>reduce/enlarge) in that it completely defeats the idea of castles and
>strongholds. After all a simply 1st or 3rd level Magician even can open
>the doors of a big castle and then wait while the troops rush in.
>Considering that a castle is a big and major invenstment I simply can`t
>see anyone building them even in a low-magic world of Cerilia....
>I`m going to somehow limit Knock to small locks and not barred doors as
>well as making the spell touch and increasing casting time to a few
>rounds... That should at least make castles viable again. How I should
>deal with reduce I don`t know.
>Any ideas ?

Unless things have changed a lot - the spell doesn`t keep the door open.

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