I have a feeling this was probably talked about a long time ago. But as I was running my current campaign I started thinking about this more and more.
Why don’t druids actually control source as a wizard? I can’t really come up with any good reason why they wouldn’t other than it changes a very big fundamental fact of BR from the 2nd edition rules. I see the variant rule of uncontrolled source could help a druid cast spells, but what I don’t like is if an evil wizard comes into a province and begins channeling the lands power to say, create an army of undead … the druid really has no way to stop of defend against him.
Druids - Typically don’t care about human followers. Their job is to protect the land and its natural wildlife from destruction and invasion. Becoming one with it and thus being empowered by it. But according to BR rules, they would be able to cast the most powerful spells and gain the most regency and influence from a major metropolis city with almost no wildlife than from a wild wooded area rich with natural beauty and strong animal life, which doesn’t make much sense at all.
My thinking would be to have druids actually access and control source like a wizard. They get the same regency income, money (virtual guild) as a wizard would from controlling source. The power of realm spells they cast would depend on the source level they have. They can not create leylines and can’t draw from another province. They do not so much as control nature but to become one with it and draw their power from it.
Now on the flip side, priests of Erik would still be interested in having temples located in human towns and cities because they want to influence to populace how to repsect nature and all that dwell within. Druids would be in the wildlife.
My question for the board is. Would this be unbalancing? Wizard have had the control of source all to themselves for a long time but now they would have competition.
What would be the relationship between priest and Druid? I could see almost a bad relationship between the two. Priests would want followers and try to influence them to respect the woods, where druids would not care a lick about a humans attitude as long as they didn’t deforest the local woods.
I allow druids to tap sources and establish temples. In general the Oaken Grove prefers temples (and is established where province levels are high) and the Emerald Sprire prefers sources (and is established where province levels are low), but both temples have both kinds of holdings. Its one of the reasons the druids are so powerful in Rjurik.
By the same token, I also generally assign empty law holdings in Anuire to temples of Haelyn or local nobles, and empty guild holdings in Brechtur to temples of Sera or local nobles.
Back to druids, the Emperald spire does really want to keep province levels low, because that’s where their prefered power source is, although they don’t get weaker (other than having to rule up temples) if a ruler does increase a province. You’ll note that Rjurik realms in the north tend to be one or two very well developed provinces surrounded by a bunch of zero and single level provinces. This comports very nicely with how the Emperald Spire would prefer to see things if they controlled both sources and temples. If they controlled only temples they would be idiots to resist province growth, rather than seek to manage it.
It also makes the Rjurik comitment against arcanists very sensible from a realm play pov as well as a cultural role play pov.
Plus it plays into my approach that the most powerful rulers will have two kind of holdings rather than just one. Normally law is the second holding coveted by those seeking dominance, but this power of druids allows them to seek in an additional area. Woe betide the guilds in Rjurik when they get the nobles and the druids to ally against them.
You are thinking like I am. I have run both a Rjurik campaign and now a Khinasi. The Emerald Spire was a weaker temple than it should have been simply because of its philosophy and their temples were located had low population. This would really correct their dominance in the their land.
This is coming up because in my current Khinasi campaign there might be a situation where a druid is negotiating for a province in the deep jungles of the Docandragh to begin his quest to protect the jungle from over logging from guilds and human growth. Offering him a level 0 holding in a dense jungle isn’t much but if he can tap into the source then it is a great boon. Of course the wizards of the realm will cringe, but that is what makes it fun.
This would be an interesting scenario. One the one hand, the druid is just another spellcaster who is a competitor for sources. His class isn’t really material to that so much. He’s a blooded guy who can manage holdings, so if he can tap sources, whether he’s a druid, sorcerer, or wizard, isn’t the issue.
Avani and Erik are allies, so that would temper the rivalry from an ideological point of view. The same is true of Ruornil. It really would seem that the PC is just another spellcaster.
I have druids ruling both sources and temples. Since most druids are from low-province level areas, their regency gain tends to be fairly good but income is low.
This keeps druids interested in keeping wizards away from sources…both human and elf (very appropriate in Rjurik lands for example).
Very nice. All great points for letting druids tap into the source. Here are my thoughts to give it balance.
Druids realm spells are based off of source level not temple level. Either or might over-power them slightly. I feel they are a mix of using the energy of the land and the power of Erik to cast their realm spells. I think Erik would grant his druids spells depending on how much natural resources they are protecting.
Druids are the masters of living off the land and utilizing what natural resources are there. I could see them getting gold bars (fruits, herbs) that are equal to what a law holding receives, but not get the benefit of the virtual guild mages get for higher level source.
I feel it takes a powerful source for wizards to extract resources from the land to get gold, druids can get much more with less. But once you reach a source level 9 the wizards virtual guild income matches what a druid gets because the druid isn’t going to manipulate the land for his own benifit, just take what the land supplies him.
Druid temples are simply shrines located at the outskirts of towns or in clearings in the middle of the woods where people come and leave donations for Erik. Low level druids or even priests of Erik might maintain it and be a liason to the humans of the area.
I see a good seperation of temples and sources. Priests of Erik would more typically have temple holdings and they can’t really draw from source. Druids would hold source and not typically temples. Having a high level temple really is the opposite of what they are going for.
Hi, i really liked your ideas, but druid is still a divine caster so i think it would be necessarily to have at least some central place of worship.
So in my opinion druid will need at least temple holding 1 so he can gain access to source holdings.
I have it that the Oaken Grove is the temple based wing of the faith of Erik, and would prefer to see them casting realm spells through temples. The Emerald Spire is the organization that is source based and casts its realm spells through sources.
Its true that nearly all clerics of Erik are part of the Oaken Grove, but I would draw the line at the organization, rather than the class of the character. Members of the druid class in the OG would use temples, as would other classes (such as skalds or seidhr/shamans).
Where the ES is really about preserving nature in its origainal state, the OG is more about being the protectors of the Rjurik people and teaching Erik’s wisdom to people who have embraced a more modern way of living. As such the OG is the temple version of the faith.
There are way to many zero level Rjurik provinces for me to impose this requirement. If it worked this way, the ES would be happy (and encourage rulers) to rule everything up to level 1, then stop and focus on a central province. Since its cheap and desirable for every other kind of ruler to do this, it would be that way already if it benefited druids to do this too.
OK my bad, temple holding level 0 is fine too, i used level 1 as an example, and as i remember we are not talking here about Rjurick druids only, i am speaking about druids in general on Cerilia. For an example the province levels in Brechtur are not so small.
Point is that druid branch of Erik’s religion still is a group of divine casters that need some place of worship, which is represented with temple holding 0 at least.
Druids are divine casters but why do they need a public place of worship for people to go to? There is really no rule for it. Druids in other worlds and realms have shrines and groves where people could go to meet with druids but certainly followers didn’t typically go there to pray … simply meet with the wise druids. This can still be accomplished without the need of temple levels.
First figure the druids can and still will have palaces. Of course they will more likely be held in beautiful opwn wooded areas but still have the same effect as a a stone palace.
Next are druids that people can consult. They could be on hand in the communities and in the groves. They can impart wisdom and give knowledge to the community of natural events in the province. They won’t be there to control or influence the populace like a typical temple would be.
I just think we might be needlessly forcing a character to maintain two types of holdings, which means they will have to defend both holdings from outsiders. What happens if a druid holds a level 9 source and a level 0 temple and they lose the temple? They would suddenly be neutured and can’t use that source to protect. Too easy to exploit.
How about source is attached to realm spells … but if they wish to spend regency to support any actions in the province they will need a temple, which many will want because you can battle guilds actions and ruler actions that effect the land.
bbeau22 makes a good point. If even a zero level temple is required for realm spells, then there is a huge vulnerability for such a druid.
Certainly druids want to have temple holdings. This is the ideological holding, and druids want to influence others towards their ideology. So I think they’ll tend to have them anyway. But wilderness provinces should be a bastion of strength for the druid, not his primary vulnerability.
Just one question, if the druids(aka priests of Erik) can access the source holdings should it be allowed to the priest of Ruornil as well ?
Cause I’am running a campaign in Hjorig where Rjurick follow the path of Lirorn, the option of source holdings for their priests will be interesting change of events.
That is an interesting thought … They certainly have reason to want it. There is already an example of this … the Temple of Rilni in Khinasi controls the source in Mairada. The book doesn’t go into detail on how they got the source in the first place but it does say that they allow some wizards access as needed.
I would put it as a purely secondary function. Because of their relationship with Rournil they might have the ability to locate source in a province … but not be able to tap into it like a trained wizard. This would give them the ability to control it and protect it, but otherwise it wouldn’t do them a ton a good. They would be better off having a loyal wizard control and use it for them.
I grant priests of Ruornil free multi-classing with wizards and limited ability to use their clerical spell points for arcane spells. So I would say that the expected way for a temple regent of Ruornil to use sources would be to have some levels of wizard.
so for priests of other gods is impossible, for priests of Ruornil it is possible with multi-classing, and it is free for the priests of Erik(aka the druids) i think it is a bit dis-balancing.
The way i see it, if the druids hold the source holdings they must be limited from temple holdings, which is controlled by the priests(clerics) of Erik.
Well first off any priest that is multi-classed as a wizard has access to temples and source. Rournil was just the example used. There is no difference between them and any other priest.
Second, priests of Erik are like any other priests also. They use temples in populated lands to gain access to their realm spells. They have no option to tap into source. Priest and Druids are different.
Druids are the strange case and what we were talking about. Druids can be allowed to tap into the source like a wizard to cast their druidic realm spells. If they have the proper skills they can also gain regency from temples (as could any person that is blooded.) But as a druid, they won’t have access to the correct skills unless they use up some feats, and the very nature of their class precludes them from building up temples in major cities. So the class itself has restrictions in place.
As a DM, if I saw a character play a druid and start building up their temple holdings in the Imperial City I would seriously question their role-playing choices and not allow it.
The problem with not allowing them temple holdings is rough. My limitation would be that they are casting their realm spells from source not temples. So having temples don’t give them alot of benifit. Just like a warrior trying to control temples. They can by the rules, but not being able to cast realm spells makes the idea mostly foolish.
I can’t imagine the priests of Haelyn tolerating a wizard as their high-priest. But it is possible if you are rule-abuser.
I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.
To me everything is role-playing, and every thing is done at GM’s discretion.
I agree to that, but i can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in.
In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.
Bottom line i really liked your idea, and i will seriously consider it for my campaign i am just afraid it is to dis-balancing, but everything is OK for the stake of the good story.
First, balance isn’t a good reason for doing much. In some ways its a necessarily evil, but in some ways its just an unnecessary restriction. Since you invoke it alone in the above post and mention it again (as subordinate to story) I’m not sure how seriously you take balance.
From my point of view, balancing classes in some abstract power measure is not useful. In Rjurik the druid should be relatively more powerful and be the force that prevents arcanists from taking root. Outside Rjurik, the competition for both temples and sources will keep the druid from establishing a Rjurik-like presence.
I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.
This is using balance for the sake of balance with no sense in the setting, and so is the worst use of the idea of balance. Let’s not forget where things stand as published and then reconsider this absurd argument. Currently the ES is full of zero level provinces with a handful of level 4’s. If only temples count, the OG is mighty and the ES is a domain whose own ideas keep it very weak. This is better balanced?
I can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in. In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.
Unlike the existing realms where land, law, and source are held by one person? Or land, law, and guild? How is a temple, law, source domain any different?
I am glad you like the idea. I certainly think it adds a new wrinkle in a somewhat unchanged system for years. I am going forward with it in my campaign and might make some adjustments to the Emerald Spire. If I can make it a workable system in Rjurik then I can balance it throughout all of Cerelia.
I will certainly look at the idea of druids not having temples at all as a balance if it seems that temples and source are a bit too powerful. Since I haven’t play tested any of this I don’t know what to expect. With the Emerald Spire I would change up their holdings a bit, changing the temples to source and keeping a couple of low level temple holdings where needed. I would try to keep their overall level of holdings close to the same.