Elves and Realm Spells

If I’m not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
use “True Magic” or the type of magic required to perform realm spells.
This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
“blooded” characters. The elves were able to perform true magic because
of their natural connections to the land or the natural ability to
gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their magical sources.

In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages. This
was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human and
they have a strong desire to leave those “crazy elves” alone.

This would be impossible; elves teaching humans. For the mere fact that
humans could not master True Magic before Deismaar, being unblooded.
However, I do agree that they must have had access to Realm Spells before
the Battle.

  • -----Original Message-----
    From: Bryan Palmer
    To: Birthright Listserver (E-mail)
    Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 01:18
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elves and Realm Spells

>If I’m not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
>use “True Magic” or the type of magic required to perform realm spells.
>This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
>“blooded” characters. The elves were able to perform true magic because
>of their natural connections to the land or the natural ability to
>gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their magical sources.
>
>In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
>cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
>off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
>balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages. This
>was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human and
>they have a strong desire to leave those “crazy elves” alone.
>***************************************************************************
>>‘unsubscribe birthright’ as the body of the message.

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Bryan Palmer wrote:

>
> In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
> cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
> off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to

OK, I feel that you have missed an important distinction. True magic is
different from realm magic. Yes, elves have always been able to tap the
meighval needed to cast true magic spells. This does not equate with
being able to control enough meighval to cast realm spells. The BoM talks
about the existence of primodial ley lines and the ability of elves to
access the ley lines to cast true magic, but this still does not imply
their ability to cast realm magic before the bloodlines. True magic by
itself, compared to the human magician’s limitation to illusion/divination
at upper levels, is more than enough to throw the weight of magic in favor
of the elves.

Just my two GBs
jsp

> If I’m not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
> use “True Magic” or the type of magic required to perform realm
> spells.

Humans have always been able to be magicians, and thus perform
/lesser/ magic. This consists of 1-2nd level spells, and the
entire illusion/divination schools.

However… They /could not/ learn true magic before the battle
of Mount Deismaar, that was exclusivly the province of the elves
and the gods. However, the /elves/ could use true magic.

However, before Deismaar /noone/ but the gods could use realm
magic. Not even the elves. Elves weilded magic that was higher
than 2nd level in all the spheres, and could probally use battle
magic as well-- thats how they held their own.

But even elves couldnt cast realm spells. To cast realm spells
one must have a touch of the divine-- a bloodline.

Its all explained in the rulebook

> This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> “blooded” characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> magical sources.

The ‘sources’ are needed for realm magic. Elves knew about forces,
knew about mebhaighl, knew about leylines, but they /didnt/ know
what they were for or how to use them. They couldnt use realm spells.

Instead, they could work the mebhaighl around them to create powerful
magics that were beyond the ken of mortals. (Yes, mortals. Elves
/arnt/ mortal. There immortal.) However, even they didnt have the
divine power to bend sources and ley lines to their whim.

> In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
> cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
> off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
> balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages.
> This was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human
> and they have a strong desire to leave those “crazy elves” alone.

Elven mages can use true magic. Only blooded elven mages can use
realm magic. If you want to handle it diffrently in your game, thats
fine, but its non-canon. :slight_smile:

Elven wizards /are/ rare, because magic is very demanding. Thus,
all wizards are rare. I would say that elves have more wizards
than humans, but still not that many more.


(lore@tmgbbs.com) |/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 —ooO(_)Ooo—

Brandon Quina wrote:
><
and the gods. However, the /elves/ could use true magic.
>
> However, before Deismaar /noone/ but the gods could use realm
> magic. Not even the elves. Elves weilded magic that was higher
> than 2nd level in all the spheres, and could probally use battle
> magic as well-- thats how they held their own.
>
> But even elves couldnt cast realm spells. To cast realm spells
> one must have a touch of the divine-- a bloodline.><

Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.

><
> Its all explained in the rulebook
>
> > This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> > “blooded” characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> > because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> > ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> > magical sources.
><

Exactly, this is all presented in the rulebook, and thus invalidates
what you say below ->

><
> The ‘sources’ are needed for realm magic. Elves knew about forces,
> knew about mebhaighl, knew about leylines, but they /didnt/ know
> what they were for or how to use them. They couldnt use realm spells.
><

Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and ‘feel’
the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect its
course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process; in
fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
course in a desired direction.

Secondly, elves don’t need the investiture spell. It infered as much in
the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense; it
always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for a
very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm spells
for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow the path of
mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore elves are
fundamentally able to cast realm spells.

><
> Instead, they could work the mebhaighl around them to create powerful
> magics that were beyond the ken of mortals. (Yes, mortals. Elves
> /arnt/ mortal. There immortal.) However, even they didnt have the
> divine power to bend sources and ley lines to their whim.
><

Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this stems
from your believe that ‘divine’ power is the only source of bloodlines.
Just out of curiousity, I always thought immortal was synonymous with
divine ?!? Remember that the land itself can bestow bloodlines on an
individual.

Which brings up my question again: When the land does bestow a
so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?

Darren

Jim Cooper wrote:

> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
> cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.

Well here are my thought on this matter.

  1. The ancient ley lines were set up by the Elves, perhaps by very
    powerful ancient wizards who could cast realm spells. Perhaps they used
    the ley lines for some sort of ancient ceremony. What ever it is not
    important now, just one of those mysteries that are so common in
    Cerilia. This should be somethat is up to each individual DM to decide
    who created them and how they can be used.

  2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
    spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
    Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
    lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
    who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.

  3. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
    would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
    than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage. I
    am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
    holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire and
    the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.

  4. I think that apart from Elves and Blooded human any creature that has
    the right connection with the land can cast true magic. This means of
    course dragons and other magical creatures. Their magical nature would
    allow them the link necessary to cast true magic. Dragon seem especially
    good at this.
    In my latest Adurian nation there is also another race that can use
    sources and cast true magic, although not realm magic yet (thank
    goodness). But they are an extreamly powerful species who know much
    about magic and the like. Fortunaty their are only two of them on the
    planet so they are not likely to blow anything Aduria or anything like
    that (or not yet anyway). Anyway if you don’t want to include them you
    can just forget about that nation, although it always was my favorite.

> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and ‘feel’
> Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this stems
> from your believe that ‘divine’ power is the only source of bloodlines.
> Which brings up my question again: When the land does bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?

You really need to reign in your belligerent attitude. I have noticed
that no-one else seems to be answering your posts and perhaps if you
toned down some of your responses and were a little nicer people might.
There is no need to say someone is wrong just because they disagree with
you. State your position in a nice calm manner instead and perhaps then
you will be listened too.


Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:

> Which brings up my question again: When the land does bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?

hmmm. i would say you’ve started a new bloodline.

be nice to your gm and have fun, essentially.


rad

“these people are going to have to realise that sometimes
bad things happen for no reason, and without it begin anybody’s
fault. it’s a tough life; stop complaining and deal with it.”

> Well here are my thought on this matter.

Ive already stated my opinions, but lets have a look at what
you’ve said

> 1. The ancient ley lines were set up by the Elves, perhaps by very
> powerful ancient wizards who could cast realm spells. Perhaps they
> used the ley lines for some sort of ancient ceremony. What ever it is
> not important now, just one of those mysteries that are so common in
> Cerilia. This should be somethat is up to each individual DM to decide
> who created them and how they can be used.

Thats the way I handle pretty much everything. Every
DM is going to handle things abit diffrently.

I like to keep things very mythical and amazing. The Regents
wield the power of gods. Having the land grant bloodlines and
priestly investiture simply being ceremonys would detract from
that, in my opinion.

Hmmm. You know what. I just had a neat little idea. The regents
wield the power of the gods, correct? Investiture is a priestly
realm spell-- and thus, formerly a power of the gods.

Wouldnt that mean that gods were formerly able to grant the
‘divine right to rule’ to their mortal kings. In effect, the
person who was invested was the person who the god choose to
rule. Regency is also formerly a power of the gods, thus
the gods would beable to ‘bless’ the efforts of their favored
mortal ‘vassals’ on earth and allow their rulership to fail or
what-have-you as they wished.

It even says in the book that one of the reasons that the
humans were able to defeat the elves was because they were
‘favored of the gods’. Ie. the humans were ‘appointed’ the
new rulers of the land, in a way, and were helped in these
endevours by the gods.

> 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
> spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
> Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other
> wizards lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means
> that anyone who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast
> realm magic.

I would let elves gain source holdings. They can cast true magic
afterall. I wouldnt let them ‘gain’ a bloodline, in this manner
though. Thus, they would only beable to cast a realm spell that
didnt cost any regency to use (afterall, no matter how many sources
you have if you cant gain any of the regency that they give you,
theny ou cant cast many/any realm spells)

> 3. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
> would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
> than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage.
> I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
> holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
> and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.

See what I said above

> 4. I think that apart from Elves and Blooded human any creature that
> has the right connection with the land can cast true magic. This means
> of course dragons and other magical creatures. Their magical nature
> would allow them the link necessary to cast true magic. Dragon seem
> especially good at this.

The pure fact that elves can cast true magic definatly implys that
dragons and other ‘magical’ creatures can do so as well.


(lore@tmgbbs.com) |/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 —ooO(_)Ooo—

> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability
> to cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.

Last I checked, I was a dungeon master. Thus, I was correct.
Also, I sincerly hope they havnt put a stupid ‘the land can make
commoners blooded’ clause in one of the books. Thats soo sell-out,
and basically goes against the entire setting.

Birthright is a game where the characters have wrested power from
the gods, and saying that anybody can attain such power is just…
wrong. I have /rumours/ in my campaign about stuff like that
happening, but id never actually confirm it as being true.

> > > This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> > > “blooded” characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> > > because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> > > ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> > > magical sources.

> Exactly, this is all presented in the rulebook, and thus invalidates
> what you say below ->

True magic is /not/ realm magic. Where would a non-blooded elf
gain the regency needed to cast the spells??

Anyways. Since you seem to value ‘book proof’ so much, here it is.

Page 5 of the Book of Magecraft.

“Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to
wield true magic, only a few experience a “calling” to become
wizards. Still fewer possess the loodlines (obviously a typo,
supposed to mean bloodlines) that allow them to cast realm magic.
So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace.”

that /clearly/ says that elves /cant/ cast realm spells without
a bloodline.

You are right, though, that it /does/ say that the elves could
use the ancient ley lines. It does /not/ say that they created
them, however. However, that still dosnt give the unblooded elf
the regency he would need. It even says that not even elves
can ‘affect’ (destroy, sunder, deactivate, extend, etc) the ones–
thus even more strongly implying that they didnt create them.

> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and
> ‘feel’ the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect
> its course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process;
> in fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
> would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
> we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
> course in a desired direction.

Unblooded Human magicians can control mebhaighl and use it to cast
spells, why arnt you suggesting that they can cast realm spells?? The
same applys here.

> Secondly, elves don’t need the investiture spell. It infered as much
> in the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense;
> it always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for
> a very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm
> spells for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow
> the path of mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore
> elves are fundamentally able to cast realm spells.

The land responds to the presence of ‘ELVES’ not of one elf. Hence
the reason an elven forest becomes an ‘elven forest’. The presence
of so many elves in it makes it ‘elven’.

There havnt been elven regents along for a very long time, however.
The way I had pictured the elves was that ‘kings’ and ‘queens’ for
them were a new thing. Before the coming of the humans I pictured
them as more of a republic-type of government.

> Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this
> stems from your believe that ‘divine’ power is the only source of
> bloodlines. Just out of curiousity, I always thought immortal was
> synonymous with divine ?!? Remember that the land itself can bestow
> bloodlines on an individual.

One simple question. Are elves gods in your campaign world? Cause
immortal or not, there not in mine.

Divine power /is/ the only source of bloodlines. That is what
a bloodline is, the divine power of the long dead gods.


(lore@tmgbbs.com) |/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 —ooO(_)Ooo—

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:

> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
> cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.

This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as I understand
it. It might be that the elven word for “wizard” (which humans adopted)
originally meant “Walker Alone,” or something like that, and refered to
the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not “gaining
a bloodline” but rather “becoming Dragon-like.” Perhaps that’s what the
original meaning of wizard was: “Dragon-kin” or “One-who-became-
Dragonlike.”

> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and ‘feel’
> the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect its
> course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process; in
> fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
> would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
> we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
> course in a desired direction.

I can also sense the wind, but I have no control over where it blows.
Perhaps until you have a bloodline, you have no means to “control” the
larger-scale flow of meghveil needed for the very powerful spells. Now,
perhaps with some process like the “Dragonification” that I talked about
above some elves might be able to extend their abilities in this way, but
I don’t think that I would call it a bloodline.

> Secondly, elves don’t need the investiture spell. It infered as much in
> the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense; it
> always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for a
> very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm spells
> for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow the path of
> mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore elves are
> fundamentally able to cast realm spells.

You make a very good case. If the elves don’t need realm spells for
investiture, then why couldn’t they have been invested before Deismaar?
And if they could be invested, why didn’t they have holdings? Including
source holdings? Particularly if there are, as the book says, natural
sources and ley lines. I have two responces: on the one hand, it might be
that the land is just fundamentally different post-deismaar than it was
before; perhaps it swallowed enough of the godpower that it operates
differently, more “directedly”, now. This is cast into doubt (but not
disproved) by the fact that none of the books mention any difference in
the land pre- and post-desimaar, esp. the Tuarhieval sourcebook, which
would be most likely to point such things out. On the other hand, perhaps
elves WERE capable of doing all those things, but never did. For a very
good reason: they never had to, and it was beyond their paradigm. They
never CONCEIVED of such things as guild holdings, law holdings and source
holdings. Those things are all human inventions. The elves had kings who
led them, and perhaps they had possession of the equivalent of province
holdings. But elves (at least in Cerillia) are not just pointy-eared
humans; they don’t do the same things as humans do, and their society is
fundamentally different from human society. So perhaps elven kings has
something like bloodlines that were granted by the land, just as some
elven wizards may have had something like them as described above.
However, I would think these things are fundamentally different than
bloodlines: probably less efficient, as someone said.

> Which brings up my question again: When the land does bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?

I guess you’ll just have to make it up. :slight_smile:

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

In a message dated 98-03-06 09:53:06 EST, you write:

  1. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
    > would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
    > than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage.
    > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
    > holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
    > and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point. >>

Quoting from the Book of Magecraft:

“Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true
magic, only a few experience a ‘calling’ to become wizards. Still fewer
possess the (b)loodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic
is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace.” (p. 5)

Carrie Bebris

In a message dated 98-03-06 13:06:26 EST, you write:

>

The land itself is indeed different in the wake of that battle:

“The cataclysm that obliterated Deismaar so distressed the land that many ley
lines collapsed. Our wizards tried to reforge the lines, but the land had
changed too much…” --Excerpt from an elven tale, Book of Magecraft, p. 25

I also liked your comments about the concept of holdings–individual ownership
of the land and its resources–being beyond the elves’ paradigm. That was
certainly a very foreign concept to them. Imagine waking up the day after that
battle and discovering that everything you have known to be true–from your
connection with the land to the laws of nature to methods of governance–had
changed irrevocably. Is it any wonder the humans were able to gain such a
strong foothold while the reeling elves struggled to adjust their entire way
of life?

CB

darkstar wrote:
> 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
> spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
> Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
> lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
> who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.
><

True enough, except that as elves don’t need to be blooded, this means
that an unblooded elf should be able to hold source holdings as if they
were of the blood, does it not? Does anyone have a different
interpretation?

><
> You really need to reign in your belligerent attitude. I have noticed
> that no-one else seems to be answering your posts and perhaps if you
> toned down some of your responses and were a little nicer people might.
> There is no need to say someone is wrong just because they disagree with
> you. State your position in a nice calm manner instead and perhaps then
> you will be listened too.
><

Wow, I didn’t realize I was being belligerent. To all the list I would
like to say I am very sorry for any past behaviour that I have displayed
in my posts; I will reign in my future ‘attitude’. In my defense, it
was late, I was trying to shorten my post, and I was the one actually
responding to a post, so I was disagreeing with that particular
listmember, not the other way around. I was only giving my point of
view, and being rather succinct (I will admit) in doing so.

Again, I apologize, to Brandon Quina, Ian, and all the others.

Darren

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
><
> This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as I understand
> it. It might be that the elven word for “wizard” (which humans adopted)
> originally meant “Walker Alone,” or something like that, and refered to
> the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
> communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
> this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
> the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
> the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not “gaining
> a bloodline” but rather “becoming Dragon-like.” Perhaps that’s what the
> original meaning of wizard was: “Dragon-kin” or “One-who-became-
> Dragonlike.”
><
>
Thank you Mark, for your insightful comments. I liked your suggestions
and thought they reinforce my arguements well, especially your
‘Dragonification’ part. This is similar to how I see elves and their
relationship with nature - I wish I had thought of that. Thus, Dragons
are perhaps personifications of mebhaighl itself, while elves are a
personification of nature which is a physical manifestation of
mebhaighl. How does that sound. Thus, elves and dragons are perhaps
‘cousins’, from a magical standpoint, in Aebrynnis.

The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
bloodlines, right? Note, that this does not say that the majority of
elves have the knowledge to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
is this not technically correct? Now, since elves are able to cast true
magic, what stopping them from finding a source, ‘investing’ themselves
in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
know this is strictly ‘against the rules’, but it doesn’t make sense
that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
because of blood - which most elves wouldn’t need IMO for the purposes
of elven holdings) and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
cast true magic, why can’t they cast realm magic if they have (access
to) a source holding. Moreover, wizards can ‘loan’ their source
holdings to other regents to use temporarily. Thus any elf, IMO, could
use source holdings, IF they had the knowledge of how to use them.

Secondly, if you have a fan handy, pick it up and place it in front of
an electric fan. The wind is blown in directions you position the fan
in. If you have a big enough fan, and the strength to hold it, you
could conceivably change the direction of a whole lot of air. This is
how I view the comments of a log in a river. Elves, IMO, have a much
stronger will with respect to controlling mebhaighl, unlike any other
race (except dragons), and thus if they only had the knowledge (the ‘big
fan’ as it where, since they already have the ‘strength’), any elf could
conceivably wield mighty magic - no divine blood required.

Hope this helps,
Darren

Jim Cooper wrote:

> The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
> elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
> capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
> bloodlines, right?

Quick comment from my perspective, and perhaps I am wrong again.

It would seem to me that there is some confusion between “true magic” and “realm magic.” They are
separate entities, unrelated. True magic is just the powers beyond illusion and divination of over
2nd (3rd?) level. Realm magic is that which is used through the energies of the departed gods and
the ties to the lands (thus, requiring - in most cases - that the person be both a Regent and
Blooded).

IMHO, an elf could very well be a wielder of True Magic, but be completely powerless to control the
mystical powers of the realm. Without that intangible source of power, that mystical energy, they
are lacking the energies to do so.

Consider this. A fighter, with a score of 18 intelligence, regardless of knowledge and mind, would
not be capable of casting Realm Magic because he doesn’t know how to tap into that energy, even if
he does have regency. What makes him so different than the unblooded elven wizard? Simple put, I
believe that the elven wizard would also lack that basic ability to tap into powers that have never
been at their disposal, nor that they would have knowledge and control over.

Finally, as many a good argument has been made since I joined recently, what’s to say that a strong
minded and charismatic Unblooded Elven Wizard of high level couldn’t rule just as strongly and
assured without Realm Magic. After all, as nice as the Realm Spells are, there are some pretty
nasty Wizard Magic out there that would crumple any Regent of level 3 with only Realm Magic to back
him.

My 2 Gold Bars,
Bret Davenport
“SunSeeker”

Bret W. Davenport wrote:

> Quick comment from my perspective, and perhaps I am wrong again.
>
> It would seem to me that there is some confusion between “true magic” and “realm magic.” They are
> separate entities, unrelated. True magic is just the powers beyond illusion and divination of over
> 2nd (3rd?) level. Realm magic is that which is used through the energies of the departed gods and
> the ties to the lands (thus, requiring - in most cases - that the person be both a Regent and
> Blooded).
>
> IMHO, an elf could very well be a wielder of True Magic, but be completely powerless to control the
> mystical powers of the realm. Without that intangible source of power, that mystical energy, they
> are lacking the energies to do so.
><

Interesting. I had always thought that true magic’s power or energy
came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser magic,
on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines ‘simply’
allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of mebhaighl to feel
it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the other hand, this has
always been a natural ability).

The only counterpoint to this suggestion I can think of is that realm
spells really only needs a source holding of sufficent level to power
their energies and wizards are just there to guide it, but don’t need to
be a conduit - I assume that the actual power would not come from the
wizard, but from the source. Thus, the only people able to tap into
source holdings to cast realm spells would be beings able to cast true
magic (which, in the case of my arguement, would include elves).

Interesting.

Darren

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Brandon Quina wrote:

> > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
> > holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
> > and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.

Regarding who can cast realm spells:

In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel’s source holdings is the
cryptic comment that though “[t]he prince dominates the magic of Tuarhievel…
[he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity to
siphon what they need for their own spells.”

This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have access
to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of that
Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells seem
to be:

  1. The ability to cast “true” magic.
  2. Access to a source holding powerful enough to cast the spell.
  3. Knowing the spell.

This last requirement is something that should probably be noted. Mages who do
not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn a realm spell.
They can’t cast it. Why learn it? Oh, they might do so in the hope of being
able to cast it one day, but that seems a rather slim reason to spend so much
time and energy, doesn’t it?

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Brandon Quina wrote:
> I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be
blooded to gain source
> holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
> and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.
Regarding who can cast realm spells:

In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel’s source holdings
is the cryptic comment that though “[t]he prince dominates the magic of
Tuarhievel… [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the
opportunity to siphon what they need for their own spells.”

This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
access to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent
of that Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting
realm spells seem to be:

  1. The ability to cast “true” magic.
  2. Access to a source holding powerful enough to cast the spell.
  3. Knowing the spell.

This last requirement is something that should probably be noted.
Mages who do not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn
a realm spell. They can’t cast it. Why learn it? Oh,
they might do so in the hope of being able to cast it one day, but that
seems a rather slim reason to spend so much time and energy, doesn’t it?

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Jim Cooper wrote:

> Interesting. I had always thought that true magic’s power or energy
> came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
> spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
> magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser magic,
> on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines ‘simply’
> allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of mebhaighl to feel
> it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the other hand, this has
> always been a natural ability).

Well, one of the disadvantages I endure is not having the BoM or BoP, thusin many instances I am
unenlightened as to many references on this list.
Where I am wrong, or ignorant, I apologize.

Still, my opinion is that Realm and True magic are unrelated. True magic
being powers that are tapped into from a different source of power. Actually
I’d think they were garnered from many different sources of power. It is from
this we see the specialist, and their inability to tap into opposition schools.
Where the innate ability to find, control, and use these powers might be
such that only those talented enough to use one could use the other, in and
of itself, they would be different. If you examine the effect and usage of
each type, you’d see them to be vastly different.

Of course, being able to use True Magic or Realm Magic should be quite
extremely rare indeed. There is, according to the core rules, only a very
select few who can use true magic, and fewer still able to use realm.

Elves, to me, would be collectively empowered to affect the world, but
less so individually. The land, being more closely tied to the elven nature,
would respond to elven needs as a collective whole. Individually, there
would be little power to mold or alter the world around him or her (except,
of course, for the rare Blooded Elf). Furthermore, the elves would not be
able to force the land to submit to their will, the land would respond to
their need (probably over the course of long years - they are, after all, an
immortal and patient people).

Bret Davenport
“SunSeeker”

> > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain
> > source holding and cast realm spell

> Quoting from the Book of Magecraft:
>
> “Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true
> magic, only a few experience a ‘calling’ to become wizards. Still fewer
> possess the (b)loodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic
> is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace.” (p. 5)
>
> Carrie Bebris

So, an elven mage must be blooded in order to cast a realm spell.
I accept it but still I would like to know WHY a bloodline is
necessary?

Let me draw a parallel: When you are told that the sun rises from the
east you could accept it without a question but in order to run that
world (where the sun rises from the east) it would be helpful to know
the reason.

I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
“official material” - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
why - worries me a little bit. Instead of helping to create your own
world, the published material starts to hinder it. I know that I can
“fill in” any blank area or to “clarify” a rule that is
confusing in my campaign, but doing so, would make later adoption of
official material very difficult. (Because it comes out that my
explanation does not comply with an “official rule”.)

Well, I am aware that many things must be left out in order to
keep the price of a product reasonable. On the other hand, the pages
in e-mails are not limited. So, I would appreciate very much if
anyone from TSR would find some minutes to answer these questions:

  1. What is the connection the investiture creates? To what the regent
    is attached? In case of a realm the regent is connected to the land.
    But what about holdings? To the people (over whom the regent has
    power)? Do the holdings “move around” then with people?

2.Why regents of guild and source holdings do not need
the ceremony of investiture to transfer the respective holdings?
What is so different there compared with Temple Holdings, provinces
and especially Law Holdings? Or does it mean that ceremony of
investiture is mostly show for commoners? That they would know by
whom they are governed (in case of Law Holdings and provinces)? Why
the spell then?

  1. What restricts an unblooded person to create a holding? Especially
    a 0 level law holding? (It is mentioned in Rulebook that only scions
    can be regents. On the other hand, law holdings are defined as “any
    entity that affect [a ruler’s] ability to control a province and the
    loyalty of his government servants..” p.35) As we can see later in
    that book, not only province rulers can have law holdings in a
    province.) Or does it mean that only “holdings” that belong to a
    regent are called “holdings” and these controlled by a commoner are
    not? If the answer is “yes” why a commoner who is controlling a
    "wereholding"is not able (for example) to negotiate? (As Diplomacy is
    a domain action and also RP’s must be spent)

  2. Why the province ruler collects taxes (when he does not have
    even a 0 level law holding) and not the person who has law holdings
    in that province? (Are people just willingly coming to
    his “hidingplace” to give up their money? And even then when
    another regent with maximum law holdings is trying to hinder it?)

  3. Regency is described as “an unseen aura of power that helps him [a
    regent] to do things that lesser mortal’s could not even dream
    about” p.32. Does this aura only awe the people with whom the regent
    deals and thus helps him to achieve its goals or does regency
    actually enable to manipulate the outcome of an action?

With the best regards to the creators of the most intriguing
camapaign setting ever,

Kaarel

> So, an elven mage must be blooded in order to cast a realm spell.
> I accept it but still I would like to know WHY a bloodline is
> necessary?

As ive said before. The wizard is doing things that are on
a paar with the powers of a god. Sure, anyone who could cast
true magic might beable to have a source holding.

However, they wouldnt be able to control the raw power from
said source holding like a blooded wizard can. They cant take
the power from the source, channel it through their body, and
cast a spell that is.. basically.. miraculous..

The same way an unblooded priest can cast spells granted to him
by his god, but only a blooded priest can take his followers and
use their faith to wield the divine miracles that were – until
deismaar – the exclusive domain of GODS.

You cant just be any ole elf or human to do these things. The
same holds with unblooded regents. They can do all domain actions
(I would let them do things that required regency.. They would
just get penaltys to the dice roll. If an action costs 2 regency,
they would get -2 to their dice roll) but they cant use the power
of the land to make their work easier.

An unblooded regent has to literally work his butt off to rule
up his holdings. A blooded regent, atleast a powerful one, can
just use his divine power and have the increase happen almost
automatically (ie. spending RP points)

Both would still have to spend time and energy doing things, but
the blooded person can be reasonably sure that his efforts will
succeed if he wants too.

> I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
> “official material” - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
> why - worries me a little bit. Instead of helping to create your own
> world, the published material starts to hinder it. I know that I can
> “fill in” any blank area or to “clarify” a rule that is confusing in
> my campaign, but doing so, would make later adoption of official
> material very difficult. (Because it comes out that my explanation
> does not comply with an “official rule”.)

I explained /why/ earlier, and was greeted with people who told me
I was wrong and didnt say why. So I took the same tact, pointing out
things that proved why my ‘why’ was correct-- atleast, officially.

Basically. Unblooded elves cant cast realm spells because they cant
control the energy from the land to that great a degree. Its more
than just being able to control a source and cast true magic. You
have to have the bloodline. Of course, for humans-- true magic
/is/ a bloodline. But elves dont have to have a bloodline to wield
true magic-- but they DO have to have a bloodline to wield realm
magic. Because if they dont, they cant siphon the power from the
source (regency) and use it to cast the spells.

Remember. Its the /WIZARD/ the makes the realm spell work, not the
source. The source is just supplying the energy. :slight_smile:

> 1. What is the connection the investiture creates? To what the regent
> is attached? In case of a realm the regent is connected to the land.
> But what about holdings? To the people (over whom the regent has
> power)? Do the holdings “move around” then with people?

Im not ‘official’ TSR. However, it was generally held that kings
had the ‘divine right’ to rule. They were chosen by their gods and
given the power to rule over the land.

Investiture is a realm spell. It used to be a /gods-only/ type
effect. Its basically a tangible game-effect of ‘divine right’.

> 2.Why regents of guild and source holdings do not need
> the ceremony of investiture to transfer the respective holdings?
> What is so different there compared with Temple Holdings, provinces
> and especially Law Holdings? Or does it mean that ceremony of
> investiture is mostly show for commoners? That they would know by
> whom they are governed (in case of Law Holdings and provinces)? Why
> the spell then?

The rulers of kingdoms had the divine right. The ‘pope’ in real
life was said to be gods hand on earth. Thus, temple and provinces
would have /real/ reasons to need investiture.

Guilds and Sources-- merchants would rise and fall to such a
degree, that it would be hard to say that one merchant was ‘choosen
by god to be the worlds merchant’.

> 3. What restricts an unblooded person to create a holding? Especially
> a 0 level law holding? (It is mentioned in Rulebook that only scions
> can be regents. On the other hand, law holdings are defined as “any
> entity that affect [a ruler’s] ability to control a province and the
> loyalty of his government servants..” p.35) As we can see later in
> that book, not only province rulers can have law holdings in a
> province.) Or does it mean that only “holdings” that belong to a
> regent are called “holdings” and these controlled by a commoner are
> not? If the answer is “yes” why a commoner who is controlling a
> "wereholding"is not able (for example) to negotiate? (As Diplomacy is
> a domain action and also RP’s must be spent)

In my game, there is nothing that prohibits the unblooded from
being rulers. Except popular opinion. In a world where your rulers
basically wield the power of the GODS-- basically /proving/ divine
right to rule.

Thus, commoners wouldnt likly want to serve under unblooded rulers.
There would be no /game mechanic/ to stop them though. I even have
afew unblooded guilders in my game.

> 4. Why the province ruler collects taxes (when he does not have
> even a 0 level law holding) and not the person who has law holdings
> in that province? (Are people just willingly coming to
> his “hidingplace” to give up their money? And even then when
> another regent with maximum law holdings is trying to hinder it?)

If you own the province, its your province. You have it invested
to you, and probally have tax collectors and other civil servants
there to take care of this kind of thing.

However, if someone else owns all the law holdings – and they
arnt your allys (I allow allys/masters law holdings to count as
‘your own’) then these people can STEAL your tax money. Or possibly,
the law claims might represent them collecting the money instead.

Basically, however, a ‘province holding’ is rulership of the land.
Law holdings are things to keep order and peace alive :slight_smile:

> 5. Regency is described as “an unseen aura of power that helps him [a
> regent] to do things that lesser mortal’s could not even dream
> about” p.32. Does this aura only awe the people with whom the regent
> deals and thus helps him to achieve its goals or does regency
> actually enable to manipulate the outcome of an action?

RP :slight_smile: You can spend RP and make it where you have only a 5% chance
of failing your actions. Thats ‘divine’ cause its increasing
your chance of success with no real action on your part :slight_smile:


(lore@tmgbbs.com) |/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 —ooO(_)Ooo—