How does one become a "non-landed" regent?

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Dear all,

How does one become a “non-landed” regent? I have a PC playing a lieutenant who chafes at not being able to spend regency. So he asked me, “hey, is there any way I can become a non-landed regent so I can have a few pennies of RP to burn?”

This raised a few issues I wondered about. First, how does one become a non-landed regent? I told him you “start that way,” lol, but it’s not a good answer. Second, why are there no law non-landed regents? He also happens to own all the law in the realm, but since no other non-landed law regents where in my ruins of the empire, I surmised you can’t be one.

Finally, is there any way a lieutenant can get regency to spend during a lieutenant action? I told him there isn’t unless you’re a vassaled lieutenant with some sort of domain. So should he start building guilds, declare himself guildmaster, and see if any regency comes in? :slight_smile:

Let me add that I don’t intend to grant him regency, but I thought it was a legitimate question. Any ideas?

2

If he controls all of the law holdings then he is by definition a non-landed regent. A non-landed regent is a regent who doesn’t control a realm (i.e., a province) and whose holdings consist of only holdings and no provinces. There are many guilders, priests and wizards listed in the 2nd ed books who are non-landed regents.

Someone could ‘loan’ him the means necessary to become a regent.

In the 2nd ed rules, it cost GB to creats a 0 level holding and GB and RP to rule it up to level 1 (which is the minimum level to gain regency). In the BRCS both actions only cost GB.

So a regent would have to loan the scion sufficient GB (and RP depending on the ruleset being used) to create and rule up a holding inorder to gain regency.

In my campaigns I ruled that if a Lt gained holdings (i.e., became a regent) then he was no longer a Lt but could become a vassel. It happened to one of my player’s PC. He ‘granted’ one of his Lt (NPC) an entire province through Investiture.

The bottom line is there is no reason that a non-landed regent can’t control law holdings. The main reason that none were seen in the 2nd ed books is that the realm regent would chaff at someone other than himself controlling the law in his land and hence would contest it. The person who controls the law can ‘kick’ out the realm regent that doesn’t if he is not careful. There is nothing written in the 2nd ed books (including the Book of Regency) that forbids a non-landed regent to control the law holdings.

3

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, camelotcrusade wrote:

> Dear all,How does one become a “non-landed” regent? I have

> a PC playing a lieutenant who chafes at not being able to spend regency.

> So he asked me, "hey, is there any way I can become a non-landed

> regent so I can have a few pennies of RP to burn?"This raised a few

> issues I wondered about. First, how does one become a non-landed

> regent? I told him you “start that way,” lol, but it’s

> not a good answer.

Create holding is a realm action which can be undertaken without spending

any RP. It costs 1 GB. Rule holding can also be done without spending

any RP, but the difficulty goes up by 1 for every RP you would normally

have to spend. Thus, ruling the holding (0) you created to level 1 can be

done for an additional GB. So basically, spend 4000 gps, in a province

with an available holding slot, and you`re a regent with a RP income.

In the original 2e rules, create cost 1 GB, and ruling a holding cost 1 GB

  • RP equal to the target level of the holding, except when ruling from

level 0 to level 1. The above rule about difficulty increase is one of

the best changes introduced in the 3e BRCS, and I`d recommend it above the

somewhat confusing 2e rule, which has exceptions.

> Second, why are there no law non-landed regents?

Landed regents tend to be jealous of their law holdings, and use the power

that comes from being the legitimate liege of the land to force out

competitors. So the only law holdings owned in another person`s land tend

to belong to someone with a significant power base. Ghoere and Mhoried

own law holdings in each other`s provinces, for instance, because they

have enough muscle to keep them from being destroyed out of hand.

> He also happens to own all the law in the realm, but since no other

> non-landed law regents where in my ruins of the empire, I surmised you

> can’t be one.

Not an unreasonable extrapolation from the examples in “Ruins”, but wrong.

> Finally, is there any way a lieutenant can get regency to spend during a

> lieutenant action? I told him there isn’t unless you’re a

> vassaled lieutenant with some sort of domain. So should he start

> building guilds, declare himself guildmaster, and see if any regency

> comes in?

No, lieutenants can`t spend RP during domain actions they undertake for

their lord. Unless hes a regent on his own, in which case hes not

really a lieutenant any more, but a vassal, and he`s not taking lieutenant

actions, he`s using his own actions on behalf of his lord. A subtle, but

important difference.

–

Daniel McSorley

4

Thank you for your answers, I understand much better now. If he were a vassal a not a lieutenant I would have to play full domain actions for him though, right? Might be too distruptive to us right now.

Also, I’ve noticed that it says vassals can/should/must donate RP to the regent that is their liege. Any guidelines on how much this should be?

We’ve wondered what it would take to get a non-landed to swear fealty to the regent, and then how that relationship works. You’ve given me some to go on here, but if you’d like to expand I’d appreciate it.

5

Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jan 31 2004, 03:24 PM
[b]
Also, I’ve noticed that it says vassals can/should/must donate RP to the regent that is their liege. Any guidelines on how much this should be?

We’ve wondered what it would take to get a non-landed to swear fealty to the regent, and then how that relationship works. You’ve given me some to go on here, but if you’d like to expand I’d appreciate it. [/b]

It is entirely up to those in question. Being situational, it would depend on the relative power and incentive of the leige lord over the vassal. Is it a friendly arrangement, was it forced by threat, was it by marraige? Every one of these influences the decisions. When it comes to player to player arrangements it is entirely up to the PCs involved.

It is also up to the DM and player to determine what kind of split should exist between an NPC and a PC. Both sides have to agree (or be forced to agree) and not all similar arrangements are equal.

As an example in my old 2nd ed game for law claims against holdings we typically had the following:

The law (usually the realm) got the second GB generated and the regent with the holding being ‘taxed’ got to keep the rest. This mitigated the number of dice rolls to determine income. The holding regent always got some income and their was generally a ‘friendly’ relationship between the the two regents. Sometimes the landed regent would put on additional stipulations, usually in regards to future loans, etc.

Something like that could work for RP collection also, but again it has to be some sort of ‘agreement’. Oh and vassalege is one arrangement that either side can break at anytime, but there will be consequences if one side didn’t want the relationship to be broken. Ahhh the intricacies of politics, the thing that really makes Birthright an enjoyable game. :rolleyes:

6

Daniel McSorley schrieb:

>On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, camelotcrusade wrote:

>

>

>>Finally, is there any way a lieutenant can get regency to spend during a

>>lieutenant action? I told him there isn’t unless you’re a

>>vassaled lieutenant with some sort of domain. So should he start

>>building guilds, declare himself guildmaster, and see if any regency

>>comes in?

>>

>>

>No, lieutenants can`t spend RP during domain actions they undertake for

their lord. Unless hes a regent on his own, in which case hes not

really a lieutenant any more, but a vassal, and he`s not taking lieutenant

>actions, he`s using his own actions on behalf of his lord. A subtle, but

>important difference.

>Daniel McSorley

>

Except in the unusual circumstance that the lieutenant or his liege lord

would have managed to get their hand on the 2E Book of Magecraft magical

item, the GLOVES OF DELEGATION: "When worn by a regent´s lieutenant,

these soft leather gloves allow the regent to improve his lieutenant´s

ability to complete one domain action. Before sending his lieutenant

forth to perfom an action, the regent puts on the gloves. In doing so,

he can imbue the gloves with up to 10 Regency Points; these points are

immediately deducted from his score. The lieutenant has three action

rounds in which to use the gloves before the Regency Points expire. When

performing the domain action, the lieutenant can spend the regency

invested in the gloves to increase his chance of success. Once the

action has been performed (or attempted unsuccessfully), any unused

Regency Points expire immediately. The gloves may be used twice a year."

XP 5000, GP 11000 (2E values!).

bye

Michael

7

----- Original Message -----

From: “camelotcrusade” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:24 PM

> If he were a vassal a not a lieutenant I would have to play full domain

> actions for him though, right? Might be too distruptive to us right now.

As long as he is small, he`s only got the resources for occasional realm

actions. He`s really got to take adventure actions and personal actions

most of the time. He can`t afford anything else. Make use of his realm

when it makes sense for the group and ignore it the rest of the time.

Also, I`ve noticed that it says vassals can/should/must donate RP to the

> regent that is their liege. Any guidelines on how much this should be?

Do what makes sense. Throw can/should/must out the window. What do that

vassal and overlord want from each other?

> We`ve wondered what it would take to get a non-landed to swear fealty

> to the regent, and then how that relationship works.

Why would anyone swear fealty to someone else, ever? Because you are weak

and need protection. A guy with one holding can be swept away by any

powerful rival who wants to. If the guy with one holding can count on the

support and protection of a more powerful ruler, if he makes the proper

arrangements.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

8

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Michael Romes wrote:

> >No, lieutenants can`t spend RP during domain actions they undertake for

their lord. Unless hes a regent on his own, in which case hes not

really a lieutenant any more, but a vassal, and he`s not taking lieutenant

> >actions, he`s using his own actions on behalf of his lord. A subtle, but

important difference.

Daniel McSorley

Except in the unusual circumstance that the lieutenant or his liege lord

would have managed to get their hand on the 2E Book of Magecraft magical

item, the GLOVES OF DELEGATION:

Yes, yes, very droll, but the rule is that lieutenants cannot spend RPs

doing domain actions, magical items which allow breaking the rule

notwithstanding :slight_smile: If he had asked if regents can fly, and I said no,

well, technically they can get they fly spell or wings of flying, but

that`s not the standard situation, now is it? :stuck_out_tongue:

–

Daniel McSorley

9

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, camelotcrusade wrote:

> Thank you for your answers, I understand much better now. If he were

> a vassal a not a lieutenant I would have to play full domain actions for

> him though, right? Might be too distruptive to us right now.

You dont have to. You dont do actions for every regent in existance, do

you? Play out the actions that are important, and the rest of the time

he`s taking care of personal duties, managing his holding, and whatever.

Also, I`ve noticed that it says vassals can/should/must donate RP to

> the regent that is their liege. Any guidelines on how much this should

> be?

Nope. A RP/holding is not unreasonable. Take too much away, and you

weaken him to the point that he`s not useful to you.

We`ve wondered what it would take to get a non-landed to swear fealty

> to the regent, and then how that relationship works. You`ve given me

some to go on here, but if youd like to expand Id appreciate it.

Hereditary fealty (my grandpappy owed loyalty to yours).

Protection (yep, I`m your man, now could you help me with this pesky

invasion?).

Self-advancement (get in good with the guy on his way up).

In general, guilds sometimes will swear loyalty to a landed lord in return

for special status in the realm. Temples usually shouldn`t, representing

a higher power than any one landed lord. Source-holders might, depending

on what they can get out of it, and take on the role of court wizard.

–

Daniel McSorley

10

Dan McSorley:

> In the original 2e rules, create cost 1 GB, and ruling a holding cost 1

> GB + RP equal to the target level of the holding, except when ruling from

> level 0 to level 1. The above rule about difficulty increase is one of

> the best changes introduced in the 3e BRCS, and I`d recommend it above

the somewhat confusing 2e rule, which has exceptions.

I believe they mentioned (in the Book of Regency?) that you could sacrifice

Bloodline Rating points for RP so that a non-regent scion could carve out a

new domain.

Landed regents tend to be jealous of their law holdings, and use the

power that comes from being the legitimate liege of the land to force out

competitors. So the only law holdings owned in another person`s land

> tend to belong to someone with a significant power base. Ghoere and Mhoried

> own law holdings in each other`s provinces, for instance, because they

have enough muscle to keep them from being destroyed out of hand.

I have had a wizard PC in one of my games who permitted others (an LT) to rule

the Law Holdings, in the wizard`s name. Harald Khorien should probably be

doing something similar with the few Law Holdings he has left.

> No, lieutenants can`t spend RP during domain actions they undertake for

their lord. Unless hes a regent on his own, in which case hes not

really a lieutenant any more, but a vassal, and he`s not taking

> lieutenant actions, he`s using his own actions on behalf of his lord.

A subtle, but important difference.

I believe that the lord can pay the BASE RP cost of any actions for the LT,

but the LT cannot spend further RP to improve the chances of success, unless

the aforementioned LT has been granted them through a ceremony of Investiture

(which is hardly efficient). A ceremony of Investiture could set up a

regular “tithe” of a few RPs from the lord to the LT, but this is asking for

trouble, as far as I am concerned! Great Captains, anyone?

–

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”

  • Athanasius Kircher, The Great Art of Knowledge.
11

I see pirates and hig way robers and law holdings.

How were the rules on how units could be used as law holdings. ?

12

I think the most important reason that you find few non landed law regents is because of the cost. Source holdings don’t require maintenance, Guilds and Churches produce steady income, but in most cases the Law holding requires good luck (both from your own rolls and from the other regents you are taxing) to break even. A couple of bad seasons or a negative random event would be likely to push a law regent under, unless he also controlled a number or churches or guilds to make up the slack, like the northern guilders who do have law holdings.

13

Originally posted by teloft@Feb 1 2004, 05:12 PM
How were the rules on how units could be used as law holdings. ?

I believe they were only used as law holdings when occupying a province. Each unit counted as 1 law holding for purposes of maintaining peace and pillaging.