Level of Rules for BirthRight?

All I am focusing on is domain play - not that 3rd Edition was badly done…just I can’t make a computer game with the rules & spells like they are right now. People would get sick of the rules being abused inside of a month & months to years of work would be wasted, if they even tried to take the dive in to the rules of our world.

The idea of different levels of play worked fantastically for BattleTech!

I remember there’s some story about a group that came to the conventions where birthright was being advertised & played live demo’s … they got big props and such.

In battletech conventions it’s not a big deal because it’s common to have handful of games going at even the small midwestern conventions. They were able to finish these games because of the levels of play. I’m sure the developers didn’t say, lets make Battltech with training wheels … they got feed back from people who had never played saying, I like the idea - but would not pursue on my own as a DM unless it was a bit simpler.

Advertisements, pushing the player levels is putting the carriage before the horse. Our product offering is good, but needs to be targettted now torwards specific groups.

One of the differences in successful versus flashy marketing scheme’s is how they tune their product & target different groups instead of having the funniest or coolest commercials. Combining the two together is the best result.

The 3 levels of play lets us hit all the needed categories …

  • Beginners who just want to try the ideas out
  • Balanced play for use when the groups are too competitive (who’s lost a group because of mechanics allowing someone abuse rules?)
  • In depth, historically accurate long term unchanging world … sometimes called realistic

If it was just about markinget people would pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper & a pencil - because the ad was so great & promised, “a world of fantasy that will provide years of excitement and be exactly what you want” as their plug line.

Lets finish tuning the product, then worry about recruiting. I’ve gotten feedback from 12 players in the past 3 weeks & they still think it needs work.

If we could locate or get an idea of what they paid to buy BattleTech (infinitely more profitable with 50+ novels, 3 mechanic systems, 12+ supplements of equipment, three campaign settings)…well then we might be on a pitch to find a way. The real question is how many years of making cash off the google advertisements or maybe facebook apps do we need to get 10,000 or whatever it is they might ask for?

Another consideration is maybe WoTC didn’t buy D&D for the money it would be making (though they would certainly try)…but rather because they wanted to own the competition. We might be faced with the very real possibility that those fringe world games might be owned in order to keep them dead & prevent saturation … it’s a lot cheaper to develope one world & have everyone play it.

OT: The end goal of every birthright campaign isto match wits and forces with the gorgon … you can’t put a guy like him in to the campaign setting without him being the last challenge. (I have a story arc where the gorgon harvests the last few bloodlines he needs & ascends - leaving a mess of squabling realms that will never unite armies again with the gorgon gone & the lieutenants of his vying for power).

Hmmmmmm . . . . Is $10,000 really that much to raise? I’m working on a JD/MBA and I could probably write up an actual business plan. But, I could conceivably see some dedicated fans and developers who might be willing to invest that sum for the “rights” to the Birthright Campaign Setting. Has there ever been a serious discussion with the company about that?

One more musing from reading this thread . . . .

When I first got involved in AD&D, I read something somewhere about how TSR didn’t really want to alter settings dramatically – killing off characters or pursuing dramatically world-changing storylines because that’s what the PCs were there for.

The setting was envisioned as a backdrop – the perfectly developed setting with just enough definition and just enough ambiguities to allow a DM to insert a story that the PCs could run with.

They didn’t want to kill off major characters or dramatically redraw maps or such. There were adventures out there with the potential to do that, but it all happened in the “party’s campaign world” rather than in the “universal game world”.

They got away from that in Forgotten Realms later and created a whole bunch of goofy variations – like killing off Bane and destroying Zhentil Keep and making Manshoon’s clones go crazy. And, I think what they lost some of the best aspects of their settings by doing that.

I’d encourage you guys NOT to do that with Birthright. Create adventures. Flesh out potential storylines. But, don’t try to change the whole “universal game world”. Let players do that in their own tabletop games.

Killing off major NPCs etc is actually against the original agreement with WOTC.

Retain the iconic heroes, locations, magical items, and artifacts. Official sites are not allowed to kill off major PCs, destroy well-known artifacts, and similar activities.

Sorontar

At 05:01 PM 8/10/2009, Sorontar wrote:

>Killing off major NPCs etc is actually against the original
>agreement with WOTC.

It was? That`s interesting.

Of course, I don`t know if anyone creating fan material should really
be worried about it, unless they wanted to be “official.”

Gary

I suspect that that part was to stop fan-groups doing exactly what we are talking about, inventing “Birthright: The Next Generation” with a changed world and different characters. They were happy for fans to work with the reality that WOTC had invented but didn’t want too much of a change. They were happy about the D20 BRCS because it didn’t change Birthright. It just cleaned up the existing rules for a new generation of players and a new version of the D&D system.

So if we are to try and maintain following those rules, the “levels of rules” are fine provided they don’t change the underlying essences of what is Birthright. Things like bloodlines and blood abilities, regencies, awnsheghs, domains and holdings, courts and domain actions, Shadow World and Seeming. Any set of rules would have to deal with all of them, regardless of how complex.

Sorontar

Well of course. The first you change in a future BR world is the ascension of the Gorgon and removal of the Chamberlain. Both represent unrealistic level of stasis in the campaign, one by being infeasibly powerful and not wanting to be a god (which really makes no sense at all) and the other by massively failing in his duty for five centuries and serving in a completely redundant role through sheer arrogance.

I agree. One of the reasons I hated what was done with Forgotten Realms is that the main storyline was so wildly different from what I was doing with the game. My game had started before the Time of Troubles, and was indeed going to remake the Realms quite a bit, but in ways totally different than WotC did.

Here, with BR, we have that same sort of happy individualization.

However, one of the reasons people buy material is to save time inventing everything themselves and to enjoy someone else’s ideas that they happen to like. This is where multiple timelines could work, and why we need good rules sets.

As for buying the rights, I don’t think it’s ever been discussed. I question whether this community has enough unity to agree to a purpose and direction for a BR Co., however.

OT:

Not sure there’s enough of us left with that determination to purchase or use the setting. It would essentially come down to one guy owning the rights like with the domain name anyways though … as a custodian of our will.

It would be worse than trying to negotiate the bill of rights … then it would change drasticly if we ever did gain popularity as the the new comers would want to streamline to their tastes and would outnumber the current group.

For the setting to attract new people, I think it has to move on. That is, I think we need to do the occasional drastic change or plot event.

Im not talking about a complete change of direction, though. There should always be awnshegh in the setting, but any individual awnshegh might die or be significantly changed as the result of a set of adventures (a campaign) that someone out in the BR community might write and post for everyones use. After all, if our big problem is that someone writes a 60-70 page (or more) document like “Sword and Crown” or “King of the Giantdowns” and the culmination of that text is that the players face off with the Gorgon, the Magian, or Rhuobhe Manslayer, possibly resulting in the demise of that NPC, then I think thats the kind of "problem" we _want_ to have, isnt it? After all, one is free to ignore it in ones own campaign, so the most harm it could do is that individual DMs might not like it. I suspect everyone in the BR community has, at some point, seriously considered running a campaign in which the players take on the Gorgon and maybe even win. After all, the settings background pretty much sets up that as a goal.

There is a point at which changing things would be too much, or might be too radical. Personally, Ive always objected to the inclusion of weird new races in the documents that people have prepared about Aduria, for example. I think a whole new race appearing for no good reason on the continent that was once attached to Cerilia makes very little sense, especially since at least of of the five human races (all immigrants to the continent) travelled right up that continent to get to Cerilia....I dont think anyone should introduce concepts or game mechanics that diverge wildly from the original materials either. In the past, I`ve argued consistently against things like ninjas, psionics and even gnomes (which are mentioned in the original materials) in the setting.

That said, the setting does need to move on in significant, “epic” ways. For example, Ive had in the back of my mind a campaign called "Invasion!" which would feature an assault on Cerilia by a massive army from some unspecified continent of Aebrynis--it doesnt really matter much where they came from. The invading hordes are led by an awnshegh called Khan Trannus, whose totemic form is that of a Tyrannosaurs Rex. He leads an army equal to about half the armies of all Cerilia combined. He has access to magic items comparable to relics. Maybe he even has access to gunpowder. In such a campaign, nearly every domain and regent of Cerilia would become involved in the conflict in one way or another.

That would certainly be a big influence on any given campaign, and anything might happen. Players might wind up cooperating with the Gorgon. Certainly any of the human regents might be killed. The gods might even get involved in such huge events.

But theres no reason why people should feel like theyd have to artake in such a thing. It`d be a cool thing to have available, though.

Gary

Oh blackpowder & guns…

I could definitely see brecht musketeers…but for some reason I envision them wearing micky mouse ears :slight_smile:

Check in on the birMail tool - i think someone already fleshed out the rest of the continent…its like 3 cerilias’s or so in size.

For those of you who want to, go ahead and try advancing the storyline. Either submit proposals for people to comment on, or draft your adventures/materials.

If they are well-liked enough, we can consider what to do with them: keep them as secondary support materials (take-it-or-leave-it adventures), make them an alternate timeline, adopt them as semi-official possibilities, or try to make them official.

However, I suspect there’s enough individuality that we would have difficulty agreeing to make them semi-official, and I’m not even sure we’re allowed to make anything “official” without giving WotC a legal bullet against our operation as a fansite.

As for that individuality, I for instance like the Gorgon and think he should stay, possibly being eliminated after centuries of devoted effort, but certainly not before dealing with some of the many other problems of Cerilia (lesser awnsheghlien, Empire, goblins/orogs, etc). I have plenty of other ideas I’d like to try out, but not even all of them are compatible with each other.

There are all sorts of fun ideas out there and I think we’d be limiting the community by endorsing some over others:
[ul]
[li]The standards: Reforging the Empire, reforging of Imperial Temple, dealing with existing threats
[/li][li]Imperial politics, with retired Emperor Heirophants with Long Life roaming around, resurgence of bloodline strength
[/li][li]Colonization of other continents
[/li][li]Return of the Elves
[/li][li]Thinning of the barrier with the Shadow World
[/li][li]Cold Rider as Azrai’s spirit trying to reform, gaining strength
[/li][li]Dwarf/Orog wars, recolonization of dwarves in mountains
[/li][li]Giant wars
[/li][li]Rampaging dragon(s)
[/li][li]Return to Aduria
[/li][li]Invasion from Aduria/other continents (my version of this, which most people probably wouldn’t find nearly as interesting as I do, is to play what it would be like if a monotheistic people invaded and all magic failed against them–sort of an Israelites-invade-Canaan thing)
[/li][li]Gunpowder, cannon, steam tech/trains, muskets, mercantilism
[/li][/ul]
And many more, particularly having to do with smaller scale, realm-to-realm possibilities