Memnoch wrote:
> No, not really… It has parralels to something similar to an athlete in
> today’s society to that of a computer geek… think about it… who gets the
> most girls? A strong warrior is much more famous, much more quickly
> engaging in warfare than a wizard does sitting in his room studying…
Actually, I think that’s kinda my point. The reason athletes get more girls in
our RL society (aside from the fact that they beat up the competition) is
because they are more rare than computer geeks. In Cerilia, a wizard walking
down the street catches stares and is revered. Warriors may get more short term
attention, but a smart noble 2nd son (who is not likely to get to command the
entire army in the first place because his older brother is already Captain of
the Football Team) would gravitate to an area where he could be assured a place
of importance.
Also computer geeks and wizards aren’t really analogous (though I am sure many
of us wish they were.) Sure, they are both brilliantly funny, secretly
attractive, stunningly rakish types of grand wit and intelligence that are sadly
misunderstoon, but being a wizard has many more obvious and dramatic effects
than programming a computer. Wizards are, by their nature, flashy and
dramatic. They get to astound and bewilder everyone, while computer guys can
only do that if they can get someone to look at the monitor while that
Mandlebrot thingie is running…
> In order to train for a warrior (and most noble son’s in the mideval era did
> this from age 10 on) takes very little time and money in relation to the
> years and sheer amount of cash that are needed to put forth for someone to
> become even a 1st level mage…
The vast majority of those who can be mages are already in the noble classes.
(Or are the children of merchants or temple rulers or other wizards.) They
would have more money and be more apt to train their children in the magical
arts. The costs for training to become a mage are higher, but not unimaginably
so. A suit of plate mail is pretty expensive. So are horses and chariots and
new swords. Tuition at the CoS, if memory serves is 1,500GP for the first year
students. That makes one a 1st level mage. A suit of plate mail and a heavy
warhorse costs 1,000GP, and that doesn’t include weapons, a shield, practice
equipment, fencing instructors, medical bills or the cost of a high calorie, big
protein, artery hardening diet.
As for the type of training you mentioned, I think the argument is a little
backwards. If BR fighters, like medieval warriors, started training at ten
years old and went through the long process of starting out as a page for a few
years and becoming a squire for a few more then possibly a low level knight,
etc. then I think a few years of relaxed study to become a wizard sounds all
that much more reasonable.
> Actually, I would put it around 1-2% across the board… A low level mage
> just doesn’t have the prestige that a warrior does in a warrior-society…
> one is a book-learner… the other is a prized part of the realm,
> "protecting the realm against incursions of human-hating elves, goblins,
> orogs, etc, etc, etc, ad-nauseum…
Well, again, I’m going to have to argue that this doesn’t really make sense
given the situation, or the text of the published materials. The books make it
very clear that some cultures are more interested in magic than others. The
Khinasi value it more highly than warriors, followed pretty closely by the
Brechts (who recognize that scarce=valuable=profitable) and then Anuireans.
Only the Rjurik and Vos have anything like the disparaging view towards wizards
that you suggest. I have argued that the percentage of mages in Khinasi lands
would be higher than the modest 10% of blooded characters I used in my example.
I really think it would be more like 20% or even 25%, and I think it would be
similarly high among elves.
Besides, there is prestige and then there is power. Whichever one pursues is a
matter of much individual taste. If one is interested in prestige, then being a
fighter is just as good a method as becoming a priest, it might be better than
becoming a mage (though I don’t think so) and is probably better than a rogue.
But if it is power you’re after (and what second son isn’t deep down?) then
you’ve gotta go for the magic.
> If you look at the relative abilities of a 1st level mage and a 1st level
> fighter in a war-time context (sans battle spells), the warrior is much,
> much, much more valuable mainly due to the 1-shot gun of the mage’s arsenal,
> … the warrior can fight throughout the day (provided he doesn’t die) with
> just a sword, shield and armor… whereas the wizard has no armor, can cast
> only one spell, and is extremely frail in comparison… it is only at very
> high levels where the Wizard outstrips the warrior in prestige… and it
> literally takes years upon years of study (and adventure) to become a high
> level mage…
…and, thus, people who pursue that study would be all that much more revered.
Its only stands to reason that it would work that way.
Besides, you framed this comparison on the battlefield, which is the natural
habitat of the fighter, and really not the best forum for comparing these two
classes when seeing how they would be viewed by the society as a whole. Of
course, a fighter is going to be able to FIGHT better on a battlefield. It’s
kinda in the name of the character class… But I suggest that a mage even
holds up better on a battlefield than a fighter would hold up in a spell-casting
contest…
Even in AD&D, however, relatively little time is spent on the battlefield. Put
them in a royal court and see who fares better. A mage who can Detect Lie,
Hypnotize, Charm Person or Friends, or the guy who can hack an Orog apart in 3-4
rounds… Who is going to fare better in the majority of other situations, the
guy with the sword or the one with more non-proficiencies due to high
intelligence and class? Most nations spend the majority of their time
peacefully, and as the Defense Department is finding out in the present time,
warriors are rather less important to people when enemies aren’t threatening…
Even on that battlefield, however, who are all the fighters responsible to
protect? The wizard. Sure, he is weaker, but he is also a more valuable
commodity on the field. Not so much at first level, of course, but at 5th he
can cast Fireballs and that ups the ante quite a bit. If such a character we’re
not viewed as more important than the average fighter, would the mage not stand
in front of the fighter? One never protects the fodder rather than the cannon.
Nor do many people revere the fodder over the cannon…
> For most (and this gets to the dedication part of my post) it just isn’t
> worth the time and money, especially considering the short-sightedness of
> children (when the training must begin)… and also considering that your
> ownership of your lands and title is at the whims of often capracious
> regents that, for the most part, are only concerned with things at the
> regent-level and make draconian laws to reflect that concern (check out most
> pbem decrees… talk about tyranny…)
Trust me. At thirteen, if I had seen a guy cast a Fireball spell, I’d want to
be that guy. At sixteen, if I saw him charm a barmaid and have her bring him
his ales for free while he read a book with his feet up in the corner of the
tavern, I’d want to be him even more… :). Granted, I’m a geeky type, but I
don’t think that puts me in the 1-2% of the population. Given the course of
study that the BoM implies are required to become a wizard, I don’t think it is
all that expensive or out of reach of any 2nd-5th son of a minor noble,
especially since the payoffs can be so high.
Gary
