Elves cannot be clerics or druids and shun the arcane school of necromancy. These are the rules of Birthright and I agree with them, but I find difficult to accept that no elf (other than a ranger) can cast (for example) a “pass without trace” or a “speak with animals”. I believe a school of arcane spells that deals with nature should be created for elven arcane spellcasters.
What do you think about it? Which should be the opposite schools and what spells should be included?
On Wed, 14 May 2003, Elrond wrote:
> I find difficult to accept that no elf (other than a ranger) can cast
> (for example) a “pass without trace” or a “speak with animals”.
> I believe a school of arcane spells that deals with nature should be
> created for elven arcane spellcasters.
Glad you agree! I personally have gone with making them druids more than
wizards, but if they are to stay wizards then I think your plan is necessary.
> Which should be the opposite schools and
> what spells should be included?
Necromancy is the most obvious opposition school. If you wanted to make a
bigger restriction, Id consider evocation the second most likely. But taking all of evocation away is probably too much; one stab at a middle-ground is to prohibit all fire-based spells, on the grounds that theyre too dangerous to the trees to be used by forest guardians.
As for what should be in it, most of that should be pretty easy. Start by
taking everything that specifically targets or employs plants and animals.
Then look over everything thats left on the ranger and druid lists, and consider each individually. Ive been meaning to draw up such a list
myself for some time, but keep not getting around to it – perhaps if I
can tell myself I`m doing it for you, I can get it done. 
What edition
of D&D are you using?
Ryan Caveney
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[b]Originally posted by Elrond
Elves cannot be clerics or druids and shun the arcane school of necromancy. These are the rules of Birthright and I agree with them, but I find difficult to accept that no elf (other than a ranger) can cast (for example) a "pass without trace" or a "speak with animals". I believe a school of arcane spells that deals with nature should be created for elven arcane spellcasters.What do you think about it? Which should be the opposite schools and what spells should be included?
[/b]
While this is a good concept there are a few of things to watch out for during implementation -
If a new arcane school is created than any wizard/sorcerer (even non-elves) would be able to learn spells from it. That’s how 2nd ed bards learned enchantment spells (from the elves).
Opposition schools only come into play if a wizard is a specialist.
It might be a better option to give elves a few spell-like abilities such as the ones you’ve listed. This would make them similar to drow, but would end up giving them an ECL in all probability.
Necromany spells are already “shunned” by the elves and they disdain evocation ones.
I would have to question the necessity of having to do this. It seems to fit but it isn’t an absolute necessity, as ryan states. In 2nd ed, cerilian elves didn’t get these spells unless they were rangers.
This is actually sort of an interesting topic. I’ve been tinkering with some house rules the last few weeks, trying to see if I could tweak the 3e spell system slightly, without going off the deep end too much.
Anyway, one of the ideas that entered my pot came from one of the previews that Monte Cook put up on his site of his upcoming book Arcana Unearthed.
He basically sorts spells in three categories - common or simple spells, I forget what the middle category is supposed to be called and am too lazy to look it up, so let’s call it “arcane” spells for lack of a better term, and exotic spells. Basically, the spell categories correspond to weapon categories, and a bit more. The simple spells are spells that are pretty much common to all spellcasters - stuff like detect magic, dispel magic, and a lot of simple generic effects. The second category is supposed to be a bit more powerful, with more interesting effects thrown in. The final category of exotic spells contains the most rare and powerful spells - stuff that only a few of the greatest spellcasters can swing - or a spellcaster’s signature spell or spells.
Now, the way I swung this idea was to have spells sorted in basically the same three categories. A full list of simple spells, a lot of smaller, themed lists for the arcane spells, and all exotic spells are learned individually. Spellcasters begin with basic access to simple spells, and also gain some access to various arcane spell lists. Wizards more than anyone else, of course. What this does is basically make spellcasters much more themed and less all-purpose swiss army knives.
For instance, one wizard might learn fire magic, earth magic and anvil magic, and also know the exotic haste spell. He can learn spells from those lists. Another might learn seeing magic, earth magic, and wind magic, and also know the exotic gaseous form spell.
I’m trying to put some finishing touches on this system and see if I like it - the idea is specifically to accomodate themed spellcasters without taking away too much of what makes a D&D wizard a wizard. Oh, and changing out his familiar for a staff instead. “I told you to take the wizard’s staff!”
All that aside, I haven’t seen that much wiggle room in the 3e rules for adding “schools” - if you do, it creates a helluva headache, because you’ll have to change a lot of other material in the process.
What room there is in 3e for the Elven “nature-oriented wizard” would be:
-Play a wizard or sorcerer and pick the appropriate spells, or develop your own.
-Play a druid and call yourself a wizard.
-Make up a prestige class that allows wizards and sorcerers to access druid spells or just gives nature-related abilities.
-Just modify the wizard’s spell list, mix in druid spells, and create a unique Elven spell list.
-Just do what every self-respecting elf does. Frolic naked and pretend to be in tune with nature. Hmmm. Might be a different campaign world.
-Make up feats that allow Elven wizards and sorcerers to use access some standby druid abilities and spells.
That’s about it, I think.
On Wed, 14 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> If a new arcane school is created than any wizard/sorcerer (even
> non-elves) would be able to learn spells from it. That`s how 2nd ed
bards learned enchantment spells (from the elves). Opposition schools
only come into play if a wizard is a specialist.
Yes, thats a good point. To make this rigid, youd need to add in as a
separate rule that certain class features are different for elven wizards
and non-elven wizards (specifically, only elves have access to the new
nature school, and only non-elves have access to necromancy?).
The less-intrusive way to handle it would be just to add the new school to
the wizard list, and say that these spells are common among elves but
almost unknown among non-elves only because no non-elf has bothered to
research them yet – but yes, this means all wizards could figure out how
to cast them. I can see both pros and cons to this approach.
It might be a better option to give elves a few spell-like abilities
such as the ones you`ve listed. This would make them similar to drow,
> but would end up giving them an ECL in all probability.
The trouble with this is that "theyre good with plants and animals" translates into a much longer list of spells than the drow get; youd end
up having to do something like make a big menu from which each individual
elf could choose a few, at which point just changing the spell list might
be easier.
Actually, in some ways, this is the approach I`ve adopted – I have
gradually come to see the Sidhelien druid class IMC as not something the
elves study or even choose to become, but rather just a Savage-Species-ish
implementation of the fact that Cerilian elves really are humanoid nature
elementals with potential access to a huge number of innate abilities…
some days, I think every elf IMC should have a few druid levels.
Necromany spells are already “shunned” by the elves and they disdain
evocation ones.
Yeah, but they are prohibited from casting some of the very spells to
which they have the thematically strongest connection. That seems wrong.
I would have to question the necessity of having to do this. It seems
to fit but it isn`t an absolute necessity, as ryan states.
Let me amend that a little. I don`t think altering the wizard spell list
is the only way to fix the problem – I could live with any of the ones
Mark Aurel suggested – but I do think we need to give standard access to
all nature-themed spells to any elf who wants them.
In 2nd ed, cerilian elves didn`t get these spells unless they were
> rangers.
I dont think you need to require that they take a specific class to have access to them, either. Having made a "generic elven nature spell" list, I would add all those spells as standard options to elves who chose to be bards, wizards, assassins, or even paladins if such creatures existed (which they dont, of course; but perhaps in other campaign worlds).
Ryan Caveney
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On Wed, 14 May 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:
> For instance, one wizard might learn fire magic, earth magic and anvil
> magic, and also know the exotic haste spell. He can learn spells from
> those lists. Another might learn seeing magic, earth magic, and wind
> magic, and also know the exotic gaseous form spell.
I like this idea. Of course, “anvil magic” makes me think only of Warner
Brothers` cartoons… Wile E. Coyote as a wizard who always fumbles his
spellcasting rolls and buys cursed spell components is a good image,
though. =)
and changing out his familiar for a staff instead. “I told you to
take the wizard`s staff!”
=) A campaign I played in several years ago had a variety of magic items
which I haven`t seen in D&D elsewhere, which in 3e rules could be
interpreted as adding metamagic feats to your castings. That is, not an
item that gives you a feat which you then use normally, but rather one
which adds the feat for you even without you having to cast it as a
higher-level spell. For example, the one my fighter-mage found
essentially added two effective caster levels for determining the damage
done by any lightning-based spell I cast.
All that aside, I haven
t seen that much wiggle room in the 3e rules > for adding "schools" - if you do, it creates a helluva headache, > because youll have to change a lot of other material in the process.
One of the things I really liked about the 2e spell lists was that they
listed the wizard school to which each cleric spell belonged. I also
really liked religion-specific access to clerical spheres. The
re-genericization of clerics is perhaps my biggest annoyance in 3e.
-Play a wizard or sorcerer and pick the appropriate spells, or develop
your own.
Spell research is a fine answer. In fact, IMO, there isnt a spell on any classs list which a wizard can`t eventually research.
> -Play a druid and call yourself a wizard.
A fine plan. The mechanics of the classes and what the characters call
themselves in the gameworld need bear no clear relation.
> -Make up a prestige class that allows wizards and sorcerers to access
> druid spells or just gives nature-related abilities.
Interesting; my only quibble is that I think elves should have easier
access to nature magic than other kinds, and from first level. In fact,
if I were to proceed along these lines, I might make elves start with only
nature spells and require a prestige class for access to evocations. =)
> -Just modify the wizard`s spell list, mix in druid spells, and create
a unique Elven spell list.
Thats pretty much what Elronds after, I think.
-Just do what every self-respecting elf does. Frolic naked and pretend
to be in tune with nature. Hmmm. Might be a different campaign world.
grin But doesnt that mean theyre druids after all? As the song
(the filk of “Gimme that Old Time Religion”) goes,
We will worship like the Druids,
Drinking strange fermented fluids,
Running naked through the woo-ids,
And that`s good enough for me!
Ryan Caveney
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Elrond wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1651
>
> Elrond wrote:
> Elves cannot be clerics or druids and shun the arcane school of necromancy. These are the rules of Birthright and I agree with them, but I find difficult to accept that no elf (other than a ranger) can cast (for example) a “pass without trace” or a “speak with animals”. I believe a school of arcane spells that deals with nature should be created for elven arcane spellcasters.
>What do you think about it? Which should be the opposite schools and what spells should be included?
>
In the 2E Birthright Book all Sidhelien automatically “Pass without
Trace” in natural settings (p. 7) - why should they bother to learn that
spell to cast it on lesser creatures? And how could not being able to
cast this spell be a restriction if all of them can use it freely?
bye
Michael
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1651
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
>…
>What room there is in 3e for the Elven “nature-oriented wizard” would be:
>-Play a wizard or sorcerer and pick the appropriate spells, or develop your own.
>-Play a druid and call yourself a wizard.
>
That is quite good and the opposite example we already find: The Rjurik
Wizard who pretends to be a druid.
bye
Michael
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What edition of D&D are you using?
Third edition, of course. I’m one of the few Italians (I’m sorry for my English) that know and appreciate Birthright (this campaign setting hasn’t been translated).
[b]Just modify the wizard`s spell list, mix in druid spells, and create a unique Elven spell list.
That
s pretty much what Elronds after, I think.[/b]
Exactly.
If a new arcane school is created then any wizard/sorcerer (even non-elves) would be able to learn spells from it.
[b]Yes, that
s a good point. To make this rigid, youd need to add in as a separate rule that certain class features are different for elven wizards and non-elven wizards (specifically, only elves have access to the new nature school, and only non-elves have access to necromancy?).The less-intrusive way to handle it would be just to add the new school to the wizard list, and say that these spells are common among elves but almost unknown among non-elves only because no non-elf has bothered to research them yet – but yes, this means all wizards could figure out how
to cast them. I can see both pros and cons to this approach.[/b]
So let’s specify, in the description of elves and half-elves, that elven-blooded arcane spellcasters have free access to spells from the “nature school” (to be created) and let’s introduce a new general feat (for non elven wizards): “elven arcane lore”.
Elven Arcane Lore [General]
You have mastered the fundamentals of elven arcane lore.
Prerequisites: Non elven-blooded wizard, Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana).
Benefits: Upon taking this feat the wizard gains access to the elven “nature school” and becomes a specialist. He must choose necromancy and either evocation or conjuration as opposite schools.
He can still use the prohibited spells he knew prior to taking this feat, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger.
My idea is that this kind of magic may only be learned (this excludes sorcerers) by non elven-blooded characters and specialisation should be necessary for them. To achieve this, they need to take the Elven Arcane Lore feat.
On the contrary, elven-blooded sorcerers and wizards are free to select spells from the new “nature school” and the latter may specialise in that school. They don’t need to take the feat because the new spells are natural to elven sorcerers and part of the arcane teachings of elven wizardry.
I think this is a good solution…
N.B: elven-blooded means elf or half-elf. It has nothing to do with blood abilities.
Ah, I think I need to clarify one of my earlier points.
The idea of a separate spell lists for Elven wizards is pretty easy to do and balance, I think. It just shouldn’t be characterized as a “school” - schools are mainly supposed to gather up certain types of effects (with subschools and descriptors as subdividers). Unlike 2e, there’s a lot of different spell lists in 3e - making a new spell list is no problem. I just don’t think calling it a “school” is a good idea. I know this sounds pedantic, but it’s much easier to communicate an idea if we keep our concepts clear.
Making it cost a feat should IMO only be necessary if you actually gain access to additional spells, instead of simply changing one spell list for another.
Other things to consider for an Elven “nature mage” might be things like his bonus feats - scribe scroll doesn’t sound very appropriate by itself, though you could assume an alternate medium (i.e. “print spell on bark”) or replace it with something else - the eschew materials feat sounds sort of appropriate. Perhaps his bonus feats can be selected from a somewhat wider or different list to further differentiate. Finally, the familiar is sort of appropriate, but I wouldn’t consider it unreasonable to exchange it for something else of similar overall power, as long as it’s appropriate. Gaining some additional nature- or wilderness-related abilities might work, as might alternate forms of familiars or benefits. There’s a lot of cool potential material here; making a few minor adjustments to a class can give it an entirely different feel very easily.
The idea of a separate spell lists for Elven wizards is pretty easy to do and balance, I think. It just shouldn’t be characterized as a “school” - schools are mainly supposed to gather up certain types of effects (with subschools and descriptors as subdividers). Unlike 2e, there’s a lot of different spell lists in 3e - making a new spell list is no problem. I just don’t think calling it a “school” is a good idea. I know this sounds pedantic, but it’s much easier to communicate an idea if we keep our concepts clear.
I think it’s better to speak of a new school. In Spells&Magic (a second edition accessory) additional schools were created: alchemy, force, elemental… The spells included in those new schools were taken from the traditional ones. A distinction was made between schools of effect and of philosophy. The same can be done with the third edition. The “nature school” should include abjurations, conjurations, divinations and so on, dealing with nature.
Making it cost a feat should IMO only be necessary if you actually gain access to additional spells, instead of simply changing one spell list for another.
But you do. The spells included in the “nature school” can be taken only if you are Elf or Half-Elf. If you are not then you must take the feat in order to gain the new spells. I consider the new school as a racial knowledge that may be learned by non elves but at the cost of two talents (considering also the Skill Focus) and a specialisation.
[b]Originally posted by Elrond
[quote][b]The idea of a separate spell lists for Elven wizards is pretty easy to do and balance, I think. It just shouldn't be characterized as a "school" - schools are mainly supposed to gather up certain types of effects (with subschools and descriptors as subdividers). Unlike 2e, there's a lot of different spell lists in 3e - making a new spell list is no problem. I just don't think calling it a "school" is a good idea. I know this sounds pedantic, but it's much easier to communicate an idea if we keep our concepts clear.[/b]
I think it’s better to speak of a new school. In Spells&Magic (a second edition accessory) additional schools were created: alchemy, force, elemental… The spells included in those new schools were taken from the traditional ones. A distinction was made between schools of effect and of philosophy. The same can be done with the third edition. The “nature school” should include abjurations, conjurations, divinations and so on, dealing with nature.
[/b][/quote]
I think what Mark_Aurel is referring to is an “elf spell list” which would be limited to characters of elven blood. This would be similar to the 3.5 racial weapons lists. A racial spell list would probably be the least intrusive way to handle this. Any spell (normally divine or arcane) can be added to a new spell list so it shouldn’t much make a difference, also wizard/sorcerer spells could be added this list in addition to the nature/plant oriented divine ones.
[b]Originally posted by Elrond
Elven Arcane Lore [General]
You have mastered the fundamentals of elven arcane lore.
Prerequisites: Non elven-blooded wizard, Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana).
Benefits: Upon taking this feat the wizard gains access to the elven “nature school” and becomes a specialist. He must choose necromancy and either evocation or conjuration as opposite schools.
He can still use the prohibited spells he knew prior to taking this feat, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger.My idea is that this kind of magic may only be learned (this excludes sorcerers) by non elven-blooded characters and specialisation should be necessary for them. To achieve this, they need to take the Elven Arcane Lore feat.
On the contrary, elven-blooded sorcerers and wizards are free to select spells from the new “nature school” and the latter may specialise in that school. They don’t need to take the feat because the new spells are natural to elven sorcerers and part of the arcane teachings of elven wizardry.[/b]
By requiring a character with this feat to become a specialist wizard is pretty restrictive. Stating that he can use any spells/items from the oppositin listed that he knew before taking the feat is contrary to the way that specialist wizards work. Once an oppositin school always an opposition school - that is the point of being an opposition school. Also why require an opposition school when necraomancy is pretty much already a racial opposition school, hence no drawback to make up for the bonuses granted by specializing (an extra spell per day, better Spellcraft checks).
Mark_Aurel wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1651
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
>
…
>Other things to consider for an Elven “nature mage” might be things like his bonus feats - scribe scroll doesn`t sound very appropriate by itself, though you could assume an alternate medium (i.e. “print spell on bark”)
>
In the “Quintessential Wizard” from Mongoose publishing several examples
of alternate “scrolls” are given, e.g. rune stones (I think they sound
much like the stones the elven wizard in the Shadow Stone uses) or wood
slats.
bye
Michael
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Why create a new school and not just implement the traditional ones? Because the new spells can easily belong to traditional schools for the elves but should constitute an entirely new school for non elven wizards. The latter ones must specialise in the elven arcane lore. They cannot learn, for example, Invisibility to Animals as an illusion spell, Detect Animals or Plants as a divination, Summon Nature’s Ally I as a conjuration or Animal Friendship as an enchantment, like elves do. They must learn them from the “nature school”. On the other hand, elven wizards may either specialise in the new school, take these new spells from the traditional schools or take (for example) Invisibility to Animals from the “nature school” even if they are specialised in illusion and count divination (but not “nature”) as an opposition school.
By requiring a character with this feat to become a specialist wizard is pretty restrictive.
I know, but it must be restrictive. Few non elven wizards should learn that kind of magic.
Stating that he can use any spells/items from the oppositin listed that he knew before taking the feat is contrary to the way that specialist wizards work. Once an oppositin school always an opposition school - that is the point of being an opposition school.
It’s the way specialisation works for an Incantatrix. Since you cannot say that Elven Arcane Lore is a feat to be taken when the character is created, I followed the example of an existing rule.
Also why require an opposition school when necraomancy is pretty much already a racial opposition school, hence no drawback to make up for the bonuses granted by specializing (an extra spell per day, better Spellcraft checks).
Pretty much… And you have to choose another school (conjuration or evocation).
I think it’s better to speak of a new school. In Spells&Magic (a second edition accessory) additional schools were created: alchemy, force, elemental… The spells included in those new schools were taken from the traditional ones. A distinction was made between schools of effect and of philosophy. The same can be done with the third edition. The “nature school” should include abjurations, conjurations, divinations and so on, dealing with nature.
Bingo. You can’t take a 2e way of looking at spells and apply it to 3e. There are no spells in 3e that belong to multiple schools of magic. The schools of magic are used in a specific, precise mechanical way, to define a lot of different effects and immunities. Moving things around can create some weird effects. From a mechancial viewpoint, the schools of magic, as well as subschools and descriptors, were built into 3e to make the system easier to use for the purpose of categoric effects. Shifting spells between schools can create some pretty illogical effects (of course, the system as is isn’t necessarily perfectly logical, but it works).
I still think Spells & Magic was a pretty good accessory for its time - it contained lots of diverse, useful material and ideas, and was solidly written overall. In 3e terms, though, the new schools it introduced wouldn’t work as schools - they’d more likely be separate spell lists - not new schools by themselves; that’s sort of hardcoded into the system core, and the new wizard specialists would be some kind of prestige class, or feat.
There’s really no reason why you can’t make it a new school - you’d just have to rewrite a large section of the PHB and the spell lists as part of your house rules. It’s a much better and less intrusive way to make a separate spell list instead. Use the base wizard list, drop most necromancy effects and area effect evocations, add a lot of druid spells, and I think you have what you want - in a way that doesn’t require tampering with the core of the game’s spell system.
On Thu, 15 May 2003, Elrond wrote:
> Third edition, of course.
Not necessarily. My BR campaign is still 2e (albeit heavily modified),
because I havent yet found or made a 3e conversion I like. Im thinking
even more strongly of taking it to something that isnt D&D at all; however, I still like to talk about how Id do it in D&D. =)
> Im one of the few Italians (Im sorry for my English)
No need to apologize: your English is excellent. Better than the kind
spoken by many of my fellow Americans, actually – as is the case with
many of the non-native speakers on this list.
> So let`s specify, in the description of elves and half-elves, that
elven blooded arcane spellcasters have free access to spells from the
“nature school” (to be created) and let`s introduce a new general feat
> (for non elven wizards): “elven arcane lore”.
Sounds like a fine plan. Im not keen on the specialization rule, though. I think it makes perfect sense that for non-elves to gain access to elven nature magic, they must sacrifice their ability to cast necromantic spells. Im torn on the topic of whether specialists who have already
sacrificed necromancy by choosing it as an opposition school should be
able to take this feat without giving up anything else, or if they should
be forced to lose evocation as well. However, I don`t think they should
be required to specialize in nature magic. Certainly they can if they
wish, but I can see a place both for generalists with a different list and
for specialists in other schools. I suspect this feat would be extremely
popular among Khinasi wizards, who are already forbidden to do necromancy;
Rjurik wizards who wish to please the druids, work alongside them or even
pretend to be one of them; and all those, especially specialist enchanters
and illusionists, who wish to ingratiate themselves with the elves in the
hopes of being accepted as students.
My idea is that this kind of magic may only be learned (this excludes
sorcerers) by a non elven-blooded characters
I don`t see why it should exclude sorcerers; could you please explain?
Ryan Caveney
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Bingo. You can’t take a 2e way of looking at spells and apply it to 3e. There are no spells in 3e that belong to multiple schools of magic.
Right… Then for elven wizards and sorcerers you take the new spells and distribute them among the traditional schools. Non elven wizards may learn these spells (as an additional spell list) through the Elven Arcane Lore, and specialise on it, but must take necromancy and either conjuration or summoning as opposite schools.
I don`t think they should be required to specialise in nature magic.
They should because, if history says that they have learned true magic from the elves, these spells represent the secret lore of the elven race, a knowledge that cannot be gained easily. You need a lot of research… a specialisation.
I don`t see why it should exclude sorcerers; could you please explain?
Because elven sorcerers have a unique link with the land and these spells should testify it. This link cannot be taught. Wizards, on the other side, learn the mechanics of magic and this can be taught.
I have always thought of elves as something like the jann.
Perhaps a small template of ECL+1 like the tables in Manual of Planes for half-elemental.
Even commoners would have small spell-like ability.
With using the community creation rules from the DMG, most of, if not all of the 1st level NPC-classes would not exist as they are ECL2. This would help explain the lower population in elven provinces.
Even a common elf is more powerful than a common human.
Humans advantage is numbers and divine guidance.