Population convention

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

I am not adding nothing of new for the wiki.Just want to make a population convention to avoid confusion:you could use this topic to decide the population…for now I reported the current realms population of the wiki.

Aerenwe 450000
Alamie 107500
Avanil 167000
Baruk-Azhik 75000
Boeruine 200000
Brosengae ?
Cariele 295000
Chimaeron ?
Coeranys 310000
Dhoesone 250000
Diemed 375000
Elinie ?
Endier 72000
Five Peaks ?
Gorgon’s Crown 111500
Ghoere 860000
Ilien 80000
Imperial City 137500
Markazor 320000
Medoere 145000
Mhoried ?
Mieres 47000
Mur-Kilad 170000
Osoerde 230000
Rhuobhe ?
Roesone 325000
Sielwode ?
Spiderfell ?
Taeghas 405700
Taline 280000
Thurazor ?
Tuarhievel 81450
Tuornen 68000

My opinion is that-for example-Taeghas can’t have more than twice the population of Avanil.We should lower Taeghas or increase Avanil?Well,maybe an increase is better,else we should even lower the non anuirean page (Muden have more than 1 million of people).
There is of course another problem:I read that Ruobhe population is very low even for a 2 level province…population shoud be different for level and race?

2

Just to avoid old arguments being treated as new, the wiki has a short description of the various interpretations of what “population” is at http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Population .

Of course, this still doesn’t answer the issue of how big the population of one area should be when compared to another.

Sorontar

3

At 09:59 PM 7/29/2009, vota dc wrote:

>There is of course another problem:I read that Ruobhe population is
>very low even for a 2 level province…population shoud be
>different for level and race?

From what I can tell that province should have a population of
4-7… unless one is counting elves as “magical beasts” (and, thus,
part of the source potential of the province) for the purpose of
“population levels.”

Gary

4

What method are you using? The 2e pop tables, the 10,000 per province level, or some other?

Not sure how you ended up with more pop for Taeghas than Avanil, when Avanil has 37 province levels (none below 3) and Taeghas has 23.

I know the method is contentious, Sorontar, but what about pursuing a compromise method? One that maybe starts with a base level of habitation (like Kgauck’s approach) and adjusts on top of that for province level?

The simplest form of this might look like saying that each settled province (about 1000 square miles) has a base population of 50,000. Every province level on top of this adds 10,000, representing both some additional population, but also largely level of organization and economic productivity. Then people can scale that base number up or down depending on what they think is appropriate, adding in whatever modifiers they wish.

I mention other modifiers because some things still would warrant adjustment to make sense. A few parts of Anuire are considered “frontier,” and a few would be characterized as more heavily settled, having been civilized for a very long time. You could let province levels bear this out or adjust the base number for these. Also, as noted, Elves seem to have a sparser population, and the Brecht seem to have far too many province levels, even having provinces specifically described as being all but uninhabited and yet being level 3 or so.

Anyway, adding a base of 50,000 per province would give Anuire (~150 provinces) a population of something like 7.5 million, plus maybe 4.5 million from the other population levels, or 12 million. It’s a starting point and compromise method, anyway. I might adjust it by setting the base for Frontier areas at 10,000 (Erebannien, Dhoesone, perhaps some provinces of Mieres, Coeranys, Roesone, Mhoried, and Talinie) and giving racial modifiers like Elves at 10,000 base, Dwarves at 40,000, Brecht at 40,000, Khinasi at 40,000, Goblins at 80,000. This would be mostly academic, since it wouldn’t have any impact on Domain collections, but it could be worked in via any mechanism that limits total possible military sizes or resilience to random events/recovery from province level loss.

Hope this doesn’t derail the thread too much. Looks like the OP was trying to find a standard method for determining population.

5

This should be the population…if someone want a more populated Anuire should multiply this values,but the ratio shouldn’t change.

Aerenwe 74000
Alamie 55000
Avanil 128000
Baruk-Azhik 54000
Boeruine 132000
Brosengae 30000
Cariele 47000
Chimaeron 16000
Coeranys 46000
Dhoesone 42000
Diemed 78000
Elinie 53000
Endier 30000
Five Peaks 49000
Gorgon’s Crown 65000
Ghoere 128000
Ilien 40000
Imperial City 100000
Markazor 46000
Medoere 21000
Mhoried 87000
Mieres 47000
Mur-Kilad 27000
Osoerde 44000
Rhuobhe 4000
Roesone 49000
Sielwode 77000
Spiderfell 0 / 20000
Taeghas 67000
Taline 47000
Thurazor 42000
Tuarhievel 66000
Tuornen 60000

6

Please record what method you used. It doesn’t look like any I’ve seen. It’s less than the BRCS 3.x, which is itself less than the 2e material. At least, that’s going off of the one easy realm I checked:
Brosengae, 3 level 4s by either measure should be at least 40,000 (you list at 30,000)

2e:
0 = <1000
1-3 = 2000-10000
4-6 = 10000-40000
7+ = higher, to 100000

3.x:
0 = 0
1 = 1000
2 = 4000
3 = 7000

4 = 10000
5 = 20000
6 = 30000

7 = 40000
8 = 60000
9 = 80000
10 = 100000

By your calcs, 1,318,000 humans in Anuire. Man that’s low…

7

These numbers assume that each province have exactly the population of citizens - corresponding to its province rating - indicated in chapter five in our rules (Table 5-2).

Since a level province can be changed in one month by a single domain action, we can consider that some provinces are close to their next province rating level whereas some other provinces have just reach their current rating.

Therefore, I think population of citizens used for a single province when calculating realm population of citizen have to be the average of population between population for the current province rating and population for the next province ration.

8

Alamie seems to have too small a population too given its a heartland realm with 9 provinces.

Also given the fact that Tuornen fears that Alamie will reclaim their lands, you’d expect that Alamie would have a real manpower edge over the Tuors.

Boeruine and Avanil would be near even, I find it odd that Boeruine seems to have quite a bit more than Avanil…

9

[quote=“Rowan,post:4,topic:4200”]
What method are you using? The 2e pop tables, the 10,000 per province level, or some other?

Not sure how you ended up with more pop for Taeghas than Avanil, when Avanil has 37 province levels (none below 3) and Taeghas has 23.

I simply reported the population on wiki.I guess more methods are been used.
Now I already made a population with the classic system,and I will try to use the compromise method.
So—1 level anuirean province = 50000,2 level 60000…10 level = 140000
Goblin = 80000,dwarves = 40000,elves and exception = 10000

Aerenwe 320000
Alamie 580000 (500000 if you consider Sorelies and Nortmoor as frontier)
Avanil 730000
Baruk-Azhik 340000
Boeruine 720000
Brosengae 240000
Cariele 250000
Chimaeron 380000 (220000 if the eastern provinces as frontier,if all 100000)
City of Anuire 140000
Coeranys 480000 (320000 with north and east as frontier)
Dhoesone 220000
Diemed 420000
Elinie 360000 (north as frontier)
Endier 100000
Five Peaks 700000 (all goblins-maybe should be fixed)
Gorgon’s Crown 820000 (goblin rule with exception sideath+province that border with non anuirean realms)
Ghoere 800000
Ilien 110000
Imperial City 140000
Markazor 690000
Medoere 210000
Mhoried 600000 (only 10000 for each north province)
Mieres 470000 (inner provinces with 10000)
Mur-Kilad 140000
Osoerde 450000 (the two all swamp provinces with 10000)
Rhuobhe 20000
Roesone 450000
Sielwode 240000
Spiderfell 130000
Taeghas 550000
Taline 380000 (10000 for the provinces that border with Thurazor)
Thurazor 600000
Tuarhievel 220000
Tuornen 550000 (450000 if 10000 for the provinces that border with Rhuobhe)

Anuire 12930000 with the lowest population

10

These numbers are not so low, if we take in consideration actual size of Anuire (less than Western Europe, iirc), rolling grasslands of Elinie and Coeranys, desolace of Chimaeron and Baruk-Azhik and forests and moors of Dhoesone. Three elven kingdoms, neglected Five Peaks, Talinie, ravaged by elements and neighbours - list can go on. IMO 1,5-2,5 million of people for Anuire is believable enough. 13-15 millions of people for 15-16 c. means big or highly civilised and packed by people country. Many lesser powers in Anuire have not much in the terms of industrial power and agricultural might.

just my 2 coppers

11

The problem is how to explain that two provinces of level 1 (1000 population each) could field the same number of troops than a province of level 2 that as 4000 population.
Maybe 10000 for province +10000 for each level above 1 is a good compromise.Then as exception 5000 base for elves and less populated human provinces?

12

I had considered that option, too.

Gheal, in most discussions I can recall about population sizes and land masses, Anuire has been likened to France in size. Through the Renaissance period, IIRC France had a pop around 20 million. So <13 million is still a bit low. Recall that according to 2e, provinces were about 30 or 40 miles square (900-1600square miles). Population densities of 70-120 per square mile were pretty common even from Roman times through Renaissance. Take easy math at the low end of province size (1000sqmi) and multiply by the low end of pop (70/sqmi) and 70,000 people per province should be the low end. That fits with my suggested method of 50k + 10k per pop level.

So now you know the assumptions I was working off of :slight_smile:

13

Yes, Anuire is small - the size of France.

Also, population density in Anuire is much much lower than in RW Europe. A lvl 4-6 province has a pop density of 10-40 people/square miles. And that doesn’t take into account all the province with a lvl less than 4…

This is nowhere near what you are looking for.

14

I suspect that Rjurik places like Hogunmark are even lower density, or at least less urbanised. I would take them as the benchmark of what a low population means and then work your way up to the City of Anuire to be equivalent to Paris or London etc around 1400.

The problem with province levels is that they represent so much:

  • population levels
  • commerce levels
  • industry levels
  • how developed the land is (vs source potential)
    etc etc

Level 0 means there is no real sense of society or organisation in the area except the odd family-based group but it doesn’t mean no-one lives there.

Sorontar

15

Given that Anuire is a relatively homogeneous and small area that has been settled for 20 centuries, I’d say that infrastructure/industry/commerce etc. is fairly uniform throughout entire region.

That leave total population as the only real variable when it comes to province level.

Sure, there can be some exceptions, but as a general rule I’d stick with the above.

16

According to this page http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/BRCS:Chapter_six/Armies_and_warfare/Military_units a unit is 128 soldiers.So Ghoere army (18 units) has 2304 soldiers.For a 128000 population is enough for medieval age,but with the compromise system,that is 800000 population is a very little army.
If we use the compromise we should also change the size of the units.

17

IIRC, during the early industrial age, when Total War had become a possibility (an economic and military revolution allowing much larger proportions of the population to be engaged in warfare), France still only organized armies of 1 man for every 125 people. On the other end, Prussia had an extremely efficient militaristic society and engaged 1 in 25.

I think 1 in 100 is a reasonable rule of thumb. But you must consider that this would include the entire treasury tapped out, plus extensive loans, plus all the levies called up.

Ghoere’s 2304 easily-maintained standing army is way too high for a population of 128,000. It’s more doable for a population of 800,000. Call up all the levies and tap out all resources and finance the war, and I bet Ghoere could easily call up units such as would greatly exceed 8000, and thus greatly exceed the 1 in 100 rule of thumb.

18

[i]At 12:02 PM 8/3/2009, Rowan wrote:

>IIRC, during the early industrial age, when Total War had become a possibility (an economic and military revolution allowing much larger proportions of the population to be engaged in warfare), France still only organized armies of 1 man for every 125 people. On the other end, Prussia had an extremely efficient militaristic society and engaged 1 in 25.
>
>I think 1 in 100 is a reasonable rule of thumb. But you must consider that this would include the entire treasury tapped out, plus extensive loans, plus all the levies called up.[/i]

There are a lot of these kinds of numbers out there in the historiography world, so one should be a little cautious in using them as the basis of any analysis. I`ve heard some numbers as high as 10% of the population in “military” positions (which was defined as both front-line and support troops) for war periods. Other folks point out that in certain societies (pastoral nomads) nearly every able bodied man is considered a warrior, and just about every other member of the culture could be considered what we might want to call logistics and support. Then there are issues with the difference between a standing army and the sort of permanent reservists who can be called up to serve during the “war season” but expect to return home for agrarian work with their families for most of the year, but who may wind up serving for longer than is under many feudal systems considered their obligation.
[i]

Ghoeres 2304 easily-maintained standing army is way too high for a population of 128,000. Its more doable for a population of 800,000. Call up all the levies and tap out all resources and finance the war, and I bet Ghoere could easily call up units such as would greatly exceed 8000, and thus greatly exceed the 1 in 100 rule of thumb.[/i]

One of the assumptions that people (myself included) usually make when looking at the BR system of large scale combat is that the units represent full-time soldiers. But do we really need to make that assumption? It does, at first blush, look like that, but couldn`t we just assume that the abstraction of the warcard/units is really a core of officers and sergeants, maybe just 12-15 men) while the majority of soldiers are called up in a sort of endless revolving series of recruitment and release? Actual war moves might include the soldiers being pressed into service, equipped, battered into some sort of military shape, etc.

Gary

19

I didn’t bring up the nomads and barbarian types because I wanted to stick with Anuire’s civilization.

For agrarian civilizations, a lot depends on what time period/tech level you place them in. Total war required very organized and powerful centralized governments, reliable abundant crops, and major industrial production of materiel. I don’t think Anuire’s quite there, but I do like placing it well into Renaissance periods where landowners and nobility paid sufficient scutage to hire professional soldiers in their place. So I think full time armies is an acceptable abstraction. I believe the Roman infantry was similarly full-time for a good part of Rome’s history.

I’d love to play a more medieval period with shorter seasons of warfare and the logistical issues that entails, but default BR rules don’t accommodate that well. Your description of rotating soldiers comes close to allowing it with default rules, but is still a bit problematic (why keep rotating–why not let them stand down for a season or two? For those called up in Spring and Fall, how can they make a livelihood if they can’t plant or harvest?). I’ve considered a number of rules variations to reflect limited service, but I haven’t been able to play them yet :slight_smile:

If we’re going with full time, year-round soldiers, and we’re looking to inform total population levels and vice versa, I think 1% of the population as an average, tapped-out, front-line military is a good rule of thumb. The other major demographic rule of thumb we typically operate under is that only 10% of the population lives in proper towns and cities, so 1% ready for military service seems well in perspective.

Ghoere is the most populous realm by any measure (40 province levels). I believe its wartime income could easily be around 110GB. It’s 18 unit standing army might cost around 36GB if active. With wartime deficits (and using the treasury for Musters and actions), another 60-80 units of various types could be supported, active. That’s some 7500-10000 men. Tapped out, 40 units of levies would represent at least 6000 more men. Thus it’s possible for Ghoere at the beginning of a game to raise some 18,000 men for a season of heavy warfare, or sustain around 10,000 for a few seasons. That’s way too many if the population is only 100-200,000. It’s quite reasonable if the population is closer to 1-2 million. And keep in mind that by Ruling a few province levels, linking up a bunch of trade routes, and getting the Temples and Guilds almost fully behind you, and taking out loans, that army size is just a starting point. And, those figures were for active militaries; a smaller field army could be maintained with many more garrisoned reserves from which to field replacements.

20

Ghoere has 50 GB income and it is already a militaristic realm with a big army:a X4 mobilization is nearly impossible,however you can reach a X2 easily.

However the classic system fails in other reigns.For example Chimaeron is an unpopulated reign (only 16000) but has 768 soldiers (5 irregulars and 1 mercenary infantry),that means 4,8%…a huge standing army.
Medoere has the same problem…and also…if Medoere is 21000 population,how it can get more troops than Endier that has 30000?
Classic system fails because too much gap between province levels.