Dalor is on the mailinglist, and the scrtipt that imports the messages still seem to have some flaws. so not his fault
Arjan
It is because all arcane magic comes from manipulating the magical force of the planet itself. Divine magic comes from focusing the power of a divinity (i.e., outside the planet’s earth energy). For elven rangers this is their “faith in the land” - the logic is at best fuzzy for rangers, but it can be applied. The only thing that elves see as older than themselves is the planet itself. Druidic magic progresses things a step too far by actually placing the planet as a proper deity instead of a minor drawing of power (i.e., ranger spells) - which is why elven druids are generally not present in the setting.
From the SRD
[FONT=Verdana]Arcane Magic
All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl (meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower.Sages speculate that mebhaighl ran mighty in the years before humans came to the continent, as the young land had little civilization imposing demands upon it. Elves say the arcane potency of nature crackled with vibrancy and force that could be felt by those walking the ground. Although human occupation has since caused mebhaighl to weaken, it is too essential a force to ever fade completely.
It is the manipulation of mebhaighl that empowers magecraft. Whether it is a subtle charm to determine the sex of an unborn child or a raw channeling of the mebhaighl to create balls of fire and storms of ice, all arcane lore is empowered through the shaping of the earth’s vital energy. Lesser mages train extensively to master the subtlest manipulations of this energy. The lore of true mages, on the other hand, focuses on channeling vast amounts of mebhaighl to awesome and often violent effect. Thus, while both the lore of the lesser mage and the greater mage bend the same forces to achieve their ends, they are each capable of feats that the other is not. The lore of lesser mages is based in the subtle manipulation of mebhaighl. Lesser mages are masters of the arts of knowing (divination), seeming (illusion), commanding (enchantment), and healing (conjuration [healing]).
Divine Magic
Proficiency in all fields of arcane magic is based upon the caster’s understanding of the flow of mebhaighl and the development of practical or intuitive techniques to tap into this power and bend it towards the caster’s end. Divine magic is rooted in faith. Proficiency in divine magic is based upon the caster’s ability to focus and channel the energies of divine beings. Faith is the lens that allows mortal souls to access and direct this power.When preparing spells each day, a Cerilian priest enters an enlightened state where the power of their faith allows them to tap into the spiritual force of their patron deity. Through simple rituals, the priest internalizes this divine force in the form of prepared spells of their choosing. The priest who transgresses against the beliefs and obligations of their faith may have a crisis of faith. Such a crisis is self-fulfilling, for self-doubt can interfere with the cleric’s ability to channel the divine energy of their patron deity. Atonements, spiritual quests, and similar trials do not placate the gods so much as serve as a trial that allows the penitent party to restore their faith.
With a few notable exceptions, Cerilian gods do not directly interfere with the mortal world. Cerilian gods neither grant nor deny specific spells to their followers on the basis of the god’s opinion of their behavior. Likewise, the gods do not communicate their wishes directly to their followers – it is the role of man to strive towards spiritual perfection without the direct intervention of the gods. At best, the gods communicate to their servants indirectly, through dreams and omens.
[/FONT]
Never, ever use the compuer game as a basis for the RPG desk top one. This is one of the most common errors that people have. They have never read any of the 2nd ed material and rely on the computer game as their basis for judgement.
The game is a simplification of the entire system with limitations due to the fact that it is a computer game (a Win 95/DOS one at that). The game itself violates many, many rules of the “official” 2nd ed rules because of its very nature.
You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
> necromantic magic…many elven casters used horrible
> magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
> during the Great War.
>
> Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as
> using Death Magic.
So exactly what magic could they use to “deadly
effect” if they had no death magic, no fireballs, no
summoning spells? What…did they charm whole armies
and make them fight each other? Or was it perhaps
that they brought death by plague to whole armies, or
summoned the creatures of the forest to battle against
humanity that would despoil the creatures native
habitat…or maybe even bring frigid ice to the camps
of the humans and freeze them to death by conjuring
horrible winter weather.
Again, you are insisting that they can’t use evocations. The rules don’t say that and never did. Don’t ever expect an elf to throw a fireball though - far too much propensity to cause damage to the forest.
Spells with deadly effect that aren’t necromancy, ecovation or conjuring:
Shapechange, Weird, Phantasma Killer, and yes the charm spells (what is more deadly than turning your own allies into deadly enemies), primsatic sphere, Disjunction, and any number of illusion spells.
I
m rather fed up with the notion that Cerilian Elves are so restricted in their magic. An overzealous notion of them being extreme tree huggers is about to wear me out. Elves DO love nature...but they arent
so bound in their restrictions that they arent able to defend it. If you like, they dont summon dead
elves, they have a spell instead that summons nature
spirits that have the same effect.
Check out the free download - Bloodspawn and the elves tie to Aebrynnis and the Shadow World (it is under the Sie). That will explain a lot of things.
In BR elves are the ultimate tree huggers if you will, willing to defend the land to the death. That was the major reason they went to war with the human tirbes (including the Rjuirk - who share a love for the land, but struggle with expansionism.
BR elves are as much different the the standard D&D elves as are those from Dark Sun. Only in opposite extremes. IN Dark Sun the elves have no fondness for nature and would pretty much sell out a forest if it could make then a ceramic piece or two.
Break out of the box and imagine things that you
haven`t already read. By seeing the fact that the
folks that made Birthright approved the use of Death
Plague by an Elven monarch…its good enough for me.Heck…if you really wanna know…ask Rich Baker.
Nevermind that…I`ll ask him.Anthony Edwards
See comment above about relying on a computer game to define the rules of the setting and game.
Check out the Player’s Secrets fo Tuarievel and the entry on sideath.
Check the pinned file Rich’s files - which we got directly from the man himself.
Gary schrieb:
> At 09:27 PM 7/31/2006, Anthony Edwards wrote:
> …
> Death Plague seems apt for elves to use to me as well, particularly
> since they are immune to disease, so it would be the kind of weapon
> that fits into their racial superiority, if you will. Charm magics
> can be just as devastating as other destructive magics, however, and
> I`ve always been of the opinion that the sidhe would be perfectly
happy employing them to the detriment of their foes. I don
t know > exactly what theyve done with realm level charm magics in the 3e
update, but IIRC the only kinds of charm magics that we had in the
original materials were battlespells, and I didn`t care for the
> concept of battlespells very much, personally, so I always ignored them.
Realm spells as Subversion, Defection were already in 2E
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Arjan
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Gary
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:31 AM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]
At 09:30 AM 7/31/2006, you wrote:
>Where is the cardinal rule that says you can`t use a
particular sanctioned material (such as the computer
game) for basis of argument? Did TSR or WotC say
this, or is this your own personal opinion?
I dont think there is such a rule. Some folks are against idea of computer games influencing RPGs, but IMO there is just as much reason to borrow from computer games as any other source, probably a bit more, really, since the interaction between them is more direct. Lots of BR related material at the domain level is influence by games like Civilization, for example. Similarly, we can take a lot of stuff from other games (like computer wargames) and use them in BR. When it comes to the computer game, for example, I believe it was the only source of the original roads in Anuire. It named a previously unnamed province on the maps (both of which were clearly oversights in the original materials) and also includes very useable maps for various sites in Anuire. Those are all very useful things to have around in a pen & paper version of the game. Heck, Id take
stuff from GTA if I thought it made sense, but I`ve never needed to
kill a hooker in BR.
>Seriously. Even elves have an adverse affect on
>nature in some degree; often a HUGE one. The
>resources it takes to simply equip an elven noble in
>full battle gear would have a great effect on the
>local ecology: mines, smithies, coal or some other
>fuel source, chemical treatment for his bow, grain for
>his horse, fabric for his clothes, looms made of wood
>to make his clothes, his estate (or modest tree home,
>what have you), his lance shaft, spears, sword,
>dagger, armor, shield of wood or steel, and on and on
>and on… This one man has effect on miles upon
>square miles of nature.
BR elves are different from the more “realistic” or “human-like” ones
in standard D&D or other campaign settings. One should assume the
industries of the sidhe are going to be very different from human
ones. In fact, “industry” probably isnt even the right term.... When it comes to elven metallurgy much of the material could be generated from less intrusive mining processes (it doesnt
hurt anything to pan for gold, for example) and metals might be more
easily gathered due to the elven understanding of nature. How might
mining change if you could ask the trees that have their roots in the
earth where the good place to dig for metals might be and they could
answer you directly?
Its also very important to remember that elves are, by definition, magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc. need not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact, smelting might not be necessary in the first place if the metals themselves are magically derived. Is elven armor made from metal at all or is it shaped and sculpted woods hardened and worked to the point that human eyes cant tell the difference between it and steel? Elven armor
might have very little actual metal in it, or the metal used could be
gathered in various ways that are very different from the methods
used by humans, dwarves, etc.
The wood used to create arrows can be derived from similarly magical
sources. The mount of an elven knight might itself be a natural
creature–an elk or other ungulate–that the knight simply charms for
the purpose of a battle and returns to its natural state (if it
survives) after the battle. If horses are the only thing one can
justify then elven husbandry is still as likely to employ magical or
nature-spirit methods as anything else they do. Their horses might
be so bred/magicked as to live on things that human horses do not,
their training would be such that it fits into their natural
tendances (as opposed to the human “breaking” a horse) and their
equipment suitable not just to warfare but to the abilities of both
horse and rider.
It should also be kept in mind that when the elves take from their
forests they are more able to rejuvenate those forests
afterward. When taking wood from a tree to make a bow and arrows,
for instance, the elf bowyer/fletcher might do so in a way that a
human woodsman might not even notice after a few weeks or even
days–maybe never at all.
Is elven clothe really clothe as humans understand it? Is it woven
from spidersilk by the spiders themselves directly into its shape as
a garment? Maybe it`s intermixed with the stuff of nature
itself–hence the abilities of elven cloaks, boots, etc.
Anything having to do with the sidhe should first be assumed to have
some sort of otherworldly, magical property, beginning with its
manufacture. It might not be the outright magic than D&D assumes in
the spell system, but it is an alternate technology that represents a
slight tweak in the fundamental physics employed.
Gary
Mail got accidentally deleted while not being imported, thus forwarding them
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Arjan
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Anthony Edwards
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 6:27 AM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]
I LIKE THIS!
Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
opinion that Cerilia is a “low/rare” magic world; but
your thoughts on Sidhe “technology” has helped me
think more on the topic and brought me to a different
way of thinking.
I like your ideas a great deal in fact…so much so
that it has actually changed my stance on some things
concerning the Sidhe to the point I might speak
differently than I have…but only slightly so! LOL
As for using the Computer Game (Birthright: the
Gorgon`s Alliance), I had no choice but to use it for
the very reasons you mention. While some of the
domain source books had roads on their maps…the vast
majority of Anuire lacked this information.
I still stand by my opinion that Elves DO use
particularly nasty magic at times. Death Plague would
be a spell well within the thinking of a race bent on
protecting nature at all costs: by slaying vast
numbers of an enemy culture, it allows nature to
recover the land over time. It also has no adverse
effect upon the land itself…only the sentient
civilized people upon it.
In fact, as a Regent Player of the Sielwode, I used
Death Plague VERY often. With judicious use of
Warding and this spell…I was able to reclaim nearly
all of Markazor, hedge in the Gorgon, and re-colonize
the land with elven settlers after reducing the goblin
population to ZERO! I had help from the Dwarves and
Mhoried of course…but everyone needs help if they
are honestly going to go against ol horny head. No need to go on about what shared borders between two elven nations meant for neighbors...but it was only with the use of "forbidden" magic. I even used Mass Destruction. Didnt see a problem with freezing
goblins to death, or having a sudden swollen river
swallow them and drown them while they were crossing.
The only spells I refrained from in fact were Legion
of the Dead and Summoning…and I can`t say the DM was
so controlled in his use of the Manslayer…but of
course that fella breaks the rules anyway.
Thanks for a good post Gary!
Anthony Edwards
— Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
>
> I don`t think there is such a rule. Some folks are
> against idea of
> computer games influencing RPGs, but IMO there is
> just as much reason
> to borrow from computer games as any other source,
> probably a bit
> more, really, since the interaction between them is
> more
> direct. Lots of BR related material at the domain
> level is influence
> by games like Civilization, for example. Similarly,
> we can take a
> lot of stuff from other games (like computer
> wargames) and use them
> in BR. When it comes to the computer game, for
> example, I believe it
> was the only source of the original roads in Anuire.
> It named a
> previously unnamed province on the maps (both of
> which were clearly
> oversights in the original materials) and also
> includes very useable
> maps for various sites in Anuire.
snip of good post
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Mail got accidentally deleted while not being imported, thus forwarding them
to list again.
Arjan
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Gary
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:54 PM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]
At 09:27 PM 7/31/2006, Anthony Edwards wrote:
>Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
>opinion that Cerilia is a “low/rare” magic world; but
>your thoughts on Sidhe “technology” has helped me
>think more on the topic and brought me to a different
>way of thinking.
Glad to hear you found it useful. The low/rare opinion works very
well for every OTHER race of Cerilia, though, so its perfectly apt most of the time. Its easy to forget that BR elves are meant to be
different from standard, D&D elves and want to apply more human-like
ideas to them. In fact, theres really no reason why they shouldnt
have magic items more in line with those of standard D&D
characters–maybe even more since immortal elves might be more
willing the sacrifice XP in their manufacture knowing they will
always have time to get that power back.
On a semi-related note: I have always suspected that BR dwarves (and
all underground races of all campaigns, really) would really have to
employ metallurgical methods other than those used traditionally by
humans. A modest smelting project would go through the oxygen of an
enclosed space quickly enough to kill off the whole population unless
there were air intakes large enough that theyd probably suck in small animals on a pretty regular basis. One good magical heat source, however, could eliminate that problem (assuming that a magical heat doesnt require air) or some other method of refining
metals would be necessary.
>I still stand by my opinion that Elves DO use
>particularly nasty magic at times. Death Plague would
>be a spell well within the thinking of a race bent on
>protecting nature at all costs: by slaying vast
>numbers of an enemy culture, it allows nature to
>recover the land over time. It also has no adverse
>effect upon the land itself…only the sentient
>civilized people upon it.
Death Plague seems apt for elves to use to me as well, particularly
since they are immune to disease, so it would be the kind of weapon
that fits into their racial superiority, if you will. Charm magics
can be just as devastating as other destructive magics, however, and
Ive always been of the opinion that the sidhe would be perfectly happy employing them to the detriment of their foes. I dont know
exactly what theyve done with realm level charm magics in the 3e update, but IIRC the only kinds of charm magics that we had in the original materials were battlespells, and I didnt care for the
concept of battlespells very much, personally, so I always ignored them.
I recall writing up a little account of how an elf (or any wizard,
really, though elves account for the vast majority of those able to
wield wizard magic) could employ various spells like Magic Jar to
wipe out a unit of soldiers in a matter of minutes. Theres no reason why an elven wizard couldnt use that spell even though it is
in the school of necromancy. (Its one of those spells that could qualify as being in enchantment/charm without too much rationalization.) Any number of other spells might be as devastating. What if an elven wizard encountered a troop of soldiers after having enchanted a Wand of Mass Reduce Person? While that might not actually _harm_ the soldiers, would a unit still be able to drill effectively, fight as a cohesive unit, etc. if many of them were suddenly shrunk to half their normal height? How about just the mounts of a cavalry unit? If performed during a charge it could be pretty damaging. (I dont think the Ride skill description lists the
DC for that kind of check…) Destructive to morale AND
funny. Gotta love that.
Gary
Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
opinion that Cerilia is a “low/rare” magic world; but
your thoughts on Sidhe “technology” has helped me
think more on the topic and brought me to a different
way of thinking.
I myself have often described Birthright as a rare magic setting. Which is true in the context of rules. Classes, magic items etc are all fewer or less common than other settings.
But within the setting, the world is full of magic, flowing with maebhaigl.
But only a few can tap it. Only by race or bloodline does one have the ability to tap true magic.
So really, it’s a `rare magic-user’ setting. 
-Fizz
Another thing to consider when it comes to the BR attitude/themes
towards magic is that unlike many D&D worlds, and many fantasy worlds
in general, magic is actually growing in strength rather than dying
out. That magic is getting “used up” or “replaced” by technology is
a mainstay of fantasy fiction. It gets used in all kinds of campaign
settings too. However, in BR magic is getting more powerful, albeit
very slowly. Consider:
-
The power of bloodlines allows thousands of characters to gain
access to wizard spells that they did not have previously. -
Elves are in decline, but that decline appears to have been pretty
substantially slowed since BoD. That is, their realms seem fairly
stable. Though their eventual demise seems likely it would appear
they never took advantage of the full range of source holdings that
were available in Cerilia, focusing on their forested
provinces. While forests have been reduced it seems humans have
taken more advantage of source holdings in other terrains, making the
overall number of controlled sources much larger.
3A. Two new gods have appeared on the scene since the BoD, creating
whole new spheres, priests, etc.
3B. The religious structures of BR are themselves magical, and though
they are not able to create magic items with the same ability that
wizards do they are definitely an expansion of magic in the continent overall.
- Nobody really knows for sure what the deal is with the Land`s
Choice, but it would appear that there is some sort of mind behind
the magical power of Cerilia, at least in regards to how bloodlines
are transferred. With bloodlines affecting all the races of Cerilia
that means the power behind the bloodline has influence over all of
them since the BoD.
None of those things represent a massive resurgence of magic, really,
but they do make one wonder what the magical “face” of Cerilia might
look like in a the coming millenia.
Gary
How might
mining change if you could ask the trees that have their roots in the
earth where the good place to dig for metals might be and they could
answer you directly?
Maybe I’m having a dense day here, but short of using Wish to duplicate an appropriate druid spell, I don’t see how elves can actually do this.
It’s also very important to remember that elves are, by definition,
magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc. need
not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact, smelting might
not be necessary in the first place if the metals themselves are
magically derived.
Such as using Wall of Iron + Fabricate?
That way great, great danger lies. Letting PCs get away with this to break the personal economics of gear-by-level is bad enough in a standard game; building this assumption into the setting such that elves are assumed to routinely do this to avoid mining would mean that the elven economy is fundamentally different from everyone elses (assuming not all races use this trick). We do not see this reflected anywhere - elves still pay the same amount for their units, PCs still use the same price list.
To say nothing of the fact that magically creating metals sounds suspiciously like the disfavoured conjuration school, of course.
If one really wanted to say that elves avoided mining, I suspect it might be better to push them along the road of having substitutes for metals. There are some special materials in Eberron that could suit, and if you wanted to you could say that Mithral was some sort of plant product…
Is elven armor made from metal at all or is it shaped and sculpted woods hardened and worked to the point that human eyes can’t tell the difference between it and steel?
… which I see you’ve already considered. These are not terrible ideas, but they would need to be covered somewhere, as the difference is not necessarily negligible. For example, are these elven wood-shaped materials vulnerable to rust, or spells such as Heat Metal? Do they have the same hardness? Are they particularly susceptible to fire?
Fleshing out elves so that they had this sort of uniqueness is definitely an interesting path to take - but I don’t believe the core rules support it at present.
The wood used to create arrows can be derived from similarly magical
sources.
Well, it could, but I would have thought that elves had plenty of “non-magical” wood lying around.
Their horses might
be so bred/magicked as to live on things that human horses do not
There are “elven horses” listed in the core rules monster section which may have the properties you mention.
If one were so inclined, one could borrow bits from Gloranthan elves, who use such unique items as living “elf bows” specially grown for the purpose. The “biological technology” from Harry Harrison’s “West of Eden” trilogy might also be a good source.
For those who think that denying the elves death plague is some drastic reduction of power, just check out the realm spell Subversion. Take into account that Goblins and gnolls are always considered mercenaries. I’m attempting to defeat an army of the Gorgon which is easily crushing a large section of Anuires military might. The Gorgons army holds the gates of doom. Death plague does have its uses, but their are a lot of more subtle spells which can also wreak havok.
I understand that Subversion is an awesome spell…but
it is also a temporary one.
In a Genocidal War (which the elves sometimes wage
against their enemies on a limited basis) Death Plague
is simply the best option.
You both take away a population base with which your
enemy musters troops and also his tax base. Both of
which destroys his ability to wage war on your own
nation while simultaneously destroying your enemy
without need of your own forces acting on the
battlefield.
I can understand the thinking that Death Plague is
taboo…I just cant see it being ignored in favor of simply subverting an enemys military forces and
PERHAPS them obtaining the same objective you are sure
to gain by use of such a precise and deadly spell.
As Caelcormac (son of Isaelie), King of the Sielwode,
I used Subversion also…but only on units that would
at times penetrate my defenses and attack my homeland.
It is very hard to fight the Gorgons power and gain sources in his domain. I only accomplished depopulation of Markazor by obtaining sources in Mhoried and using them to cast my Death Plague. Sure, humans died, but my Chaotic Neutral Monarch was also secretly all in favor of the Gheallie Sidhe...taking part in it on numerous occasions for raids into the Gorgons vassal state in Brechtur (and later helping
rid Tuarhieval in “cleansing” its provinces as well).
He even had dealings with a dragon…paying it vast
sums of treasure (essentially tribute if you will; but
more of an alliance) to act in his behalf…is that
something an Elf wouldn`t do in Cerilia?
I will stand firm on my opinion that Realm Spells are
a special form of magic beyond the ken of standard
spells…and should be exempt from the traditional
biase of the Cerlilian Elves. Before humans were
blooded, do you think the elves hadn`t already used
these magics? Who created them? Surely Azrai may
have sought to subvert the elves with such a deadly
weapon as Death Plague…and surely they accepted it
during the wars before the Gods were destroyed.
I see Realm Magic differently than “common” magic.
And I guess that will just have to be my personal
thoughts on the matter.
Anthony Edwards
— The Jew <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> For those who think that denying the elves death
> plague is some drastic reduction of power, just
> check out the realm spell Subversion. Take into
> account that Goblins and gnolls are always
> considered mercenaries. I`m attempting to defeat an
> army of the Gorgon which is easily crushing a large
> section of Anuires military might. The Gorgons army
> holds the gates of doom. Death plague does have its
> uses, but their are a lot of more subtle spells
> which can also wreak havok.
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No Realm Magic as it is known did not exist before Deismaar. The power of Realm Magic is so directly tied into the power of the gods that no living being (including elves) could tap into it without being consumed.
An elf still needs to be a scion in order to cast Realm Magic, just having elven blood is insufficient.
I see Realm Magic differently than “common” magic.
And I guess that will just have to be my personal
thoughts on the matter.Anthony Edwards
This is not out of whack, but again the “rules” need to dry lines somewhere and leave other “details” to the GMs. This is not a “house-rule” that is not something that can’t be “defended” in that context.
Now to find pieces of information that might explain or show what could happen to the elves if they use powerfurl necromantic magic there are a couple of elvens lands depicted that may give some insight. Well at least potentially.
One is Sideath in the Player’s Secrets of Tuarhievel. “As detailed in the history section, Sibharrinn unleashed magics of nightmarish proportions to halt the Gorgon’s army when it threatened this land. Now, Sideath apparently exists more in the Shadow World than Cerilia.”
Another is Tuar Annwn in the Tribes of the Heartless Wastes. “Tuar Annwn, alone of Cerilian realms, exists in two worlds - both on Aebrynis and on the Shadow World. Somehow, in their desperation to survive, the wizards of Tuar Annwn called upon and harnessed the power of the Shadow World. During the battle wit the Vos, however, thy lost cntrol of their spells and the heart of the Grovnekevic Forest now lies soemwhere between two planes.”
IMO these two locations could serve as reminders to the elves of how powerful magic is and what effect in can have on Aebrynis.
Here is some 2nd ed source material information.
From Bloodspawn
When two worlds were one. . . . (sidebar pg 5)
“The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.
The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.
Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity— as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.
The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.
Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants.
The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.”
Faeire, Seelie – ecology (pg 27)
“The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the [i]Sie /i populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).
The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself.
Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event.
Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia. Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World, however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.
Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indeterminable.”
Player’ Secrets of Tuarhievel (pg 20)
“The philosophy taught by the taelinre consists of three basic beliefs. First, the elves believe they were formed as the result of the union of the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. These elements naturally contest one another in an unending struggle for dominance. Within the elven spirit, they bring about the mood swings that characterize the elves. Individual elves are often influenced more heavily by one of the four elements, and it is the task of the taelinri to help them achieve a more harmonious balance.
The second aspect of elven philosophy is one that most annoys other races, especially humans. The elves believe that, as a result of their unique creation, they have a greater capacity to perceive the world around them and feel its inherent beauty. The intensity and range of their emotions are the results of both their origins and their immortality. As taught by the tarlinri, these emotions allow them to perceive and create beauty unlike any other race. Their music, craftsmanship, and way of life demonstrate this capacity. Other races see this as cultural arrogance, but the elves accept it as a natural extension of their origin.
Third, the tarlinri help their people achieve a sense of themselves as individuals. Perhaps no aspect of elven culture confuses other races more than the focus on the individual. The elves recognize that they can no more be ruled than can the four elements from which they sprang. They have never understood the human belief that to govern, one must rule.”
And some more about the elves’ connection to the Shadow World.
Bloodspawn – Cwn Annwn (pg 19)
“Elves harbor an innate, ancestral fear of the Shadow World, and cwn annwn are
part of the reason why. These hounds roam the Shadow World in packs, hunting
elves. Once they catch an elven scent, they pursue their quarry mercilessly.
Even if an elf is not among the party, PCs who have had close dealings with an elf in the past week may find themselves pursued by cwn annwn.
The ominous baying of cwn Annwn can be heard up to two miles away. Thus an encounter with the hounds is rarely a surprise—though always harrowing.”
Bloodspawn- Wild Hunt (pg 59-60)
“The Wild Hunt is a fearsome party of unseelie faeries, undead, shadow steeds, and cwn annwn that stampedes through forests in a never-ending hunt for elves. Most often encountered in the Shadow World, the hunters have been known to enter Cerilia in their quest for prey.
The Wild Hunt is truly a spectacle to behold. Hunters of all shapes and sizes, sporting gruesome visages, charge forth on shadow steeds in fierce pursuit of fleeing elves. Baying cwn annwn add their howls to the clamor of shouting riders and thundering hooves as the din echoes for miles. The Hunt cuts a merciless swath through the forest, sparing not trees, nor plants, nor stray creatures in its path.
And after this violent fury has passed through the Shadow World terrain—not a trace of the Hunt remains. An appearance of the Wild Hunt is always an event, even in its home terrain of the Shadow World.
Appearances in Cerilia occur rarely— perhaps once every five centuries—and are considered bad omens. In its aftermath, humans and dwarves probably won’t know what happened (their memories don’t extend far enough). But the elves will become very uneasy, particularly if the frequency of occurrences increases. Not only does the Wild Hunt present a danger to the safety of the Sidhe, but it signifies an intrusion of the Shadow World’s power into Cerilia.
The deep-rooted fear elves harbor toward the Shadow World derives in no small part from ancestral memories of the Wild Hunt. The how and why of its origin have been lost to time. Some believe it stems from the war between the Seelie and Unseelie Courts (refer to the “Faerie, Unseelie” entry), while others think it goes back further, to the time when the seelie and Sidhe people were one (see the “Faerie, Seelie” entry). Regardless, it has been pursuing and persecuting elves as long as anyone can remember.
Comprising supernatural creatures who can go on living—or unliving—forever if not defeated in combat, the Wild Hunt is a tireless, ongoing pursuit. As members fall, others join the quest. The Hunt never stops. Sometimes it doesn’t even pause to slay its quarry, but simply tramples the elf to death in its endless drive.
The entourage is led by the Master of the Hunt, an evil faerie from the Unseelie Court. The Huntmaster is a tall, gaunt figure with large black eyes and a sinister, toothy grin. His harsh voice, often shouting out in pursuit, echoes loudly enough to be heard above the thundering hooves of the Hunt’s shadow steeds. The Master of the Hunt is considered a favored noble of the Unseelie Court, though he never breaks from the Hunt to visit it. Should he ever fall in battle, the Dark Queen would appoint another of her courtiers to take his place.
Like a speeding train, the Wild Hunt charges ahead regardless of what lies in its path—including portals. Occasionally, the Wild Hunt, in hot pursuit of its pre y, lunges right through an open portal and storms into Cerilia. When this occurs, the Hunt leaves behind evidence of its passing (unlike in the Shadow World) .
Huge swaths of trees are felled, crops and fields are trampled. The region is left looking like a tornado has blown through it.
The Wild Hunt is believed to have inspired the ghaellie Sidhe.Searching for a way to drive humans from their land, the elves created their own Hunt. The Wild Hunt appears (optionally) in “Courting Danger.”
This section discusses the Wild Hunt as a single entity. For information about the creatures that compose it, see their individual entries in this book and in the MONSTROUSMANUAL tome.
The Wild Hunt creates such a cacophony as it charges through the forest that it cannot gain surprise against potential prey. Even the deaf can sense it coming through reverberations in the ground.
The hunters use bows to attack from a distance. Though about 200 individual creatures make up the Hunt, only about 20 (10%) of them can get off a clear shot in a single round. Each arrow inflicts 1d6 points of damage.
Once the hunt closes in on its prey, either the cwn annwn rush in to attack (see separate entry) of the riders use their momentum to trample their quarry beneath the shadow steeds’ hooves. Trample victims suffer 4d10 points of damage and must pass a system shock roll or die.
The Wild Hunt is immune to illusions and phantasms, slow and other movement-affecting
spells, and walls. Only a globe of invulnerability, limited wish ,or wish can divert the Hunt off its path .
Though the sum of 200 hunters’ Hit Dice would exceed 50, that number has been listed as a guideline for “defeating” the Wild Hunt. Should characters manage to bring the Hunt down to 0 hit points, the Hunt disbands and regroups in 6d8 hours.
Though the Hunt ignores any creatures but elves, it does not divert its path to avoid them. Therefore, even non-elf player characters had better dive out of its way to avoid being trampled.
The Master of the Hunt, as an unseelie faerie, has the ability to cloak the Wild Hunt in the Seeming. He generally does not bother to do so, however, for it makes a fearsome enough spectacle all by itself. The Hunt itself has no perception score, though individual members might.”
I always had trouble with this line of thought.
While, by the rules, wizards needed to be blooded to
cast Realm Spells…was there not an equivalent to
“High Magic” or “Epic” spells for the elves? The
sheer magical nature of their cities and
fortifications makes me think that they had some sort
of magic beyond levels 0-9 at their disposal.
For this reason, I again say that particularly
powerful magic was had by them that could have been
nearly equal, if not outright equal, to Realm Spells
prior to the destruction of the Gods.
Anthony Edwards
— irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> No Realm Magic as it is known did not exist before
> Deismaar. The power of Realm Magic is so directly
> tied into the power of the gods that no living being
> (including elves) could tap into it without being
> consumed.
>
> An elf still needs to be a scion in order to cast
> Realm Magic, just having elven blood is
> insufficient.
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Noting of course that Realm spells are available to non-epic level (i.e., less than 21st level) spell casters.
So while epic magic could have existing prior to Deismaar - it took the blood of the gods to allow non-epic level characters to be able to handle the true power.
Also noting that prior to Deismaar no race other than those with elven blood could cast true magic. In 2nd ed terminology this translated into any spell above 2nd level in any school but Illusion and Divination. So being capable of casting 5th level wizard spells alone would seem deity like when compared to humans who couldn’t cast anything above 2nd level spells.
If elves could have been casting realm spells while humans were limited to 2nd level wizard spells and the normal progression of clerical magic - well IMO the humans would have “lost” the war without much doubt.
At 06:53 PM 8/1/2006, gazza666 wrote:
>>How might mining change if you could ask the trees that have their
>>roots in the earth where the good place to dig for metals might be
>>and they could answer you directly?
>
>Maybe I`m having a dense day here, but short of using Wish to
duplicate an appropriate druid spell, I don`t see how elves can
>actually do this.
Well, not to spill the worms too far from the can and engage in the
whole “nature spells for BR elves” debate again, but I think BR elves
should have access to many “druid” spells. Even if they haven`t
acquired them naturally, well before humans gained access to wizard
magic, then they would have created those spells on their own.
That aside, however, elves can still be bards and rangers in the 3e
update, can`t they? Speak with Plants is still “Level: Brd 4, Drd 3,
Rgr 2” right?
>>It`s also very important to remember that elves are, by definition,
magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc.
need not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact,
smelting might not be necessary in the first place if the metals
themselves are magically derived.Such as using Wall of Iron + Fabricate?
That way great, great danger lies. Letting PCs get away with this to
break the personal economics of gear-by-level is bad enough in a
standard game; building this assumption into the setting such that
elves are assumed to routinely do this to avoid mining would mean
that the elven economy is fundamentally different from everyone
elses (assuming not all races use this trick). We do not see this
reflected anywhere - elves still pay the same amount for their
units, PCs still use the same price list.
Id argue that the BR elven economy *is* fundamentally different from that of any other BR race. We see it reflected in two major racial characteristics in the BR materials--though the value of the GB or the use of them isnt particularly one of them. However, the way
their population expansion does not destroy source holding potential
as does the expansion every other race is. Other races do things like
dig mines that destroy the environment/damage sources. Elves simply
create their material or otherwise obtain it magically. We also see
in it in the fact that elves have very little interest in guild
holdings–their economy is simply different, so guilds don`t interest
them. Why have guilds to control mines when metal is derived through
magic? Magical characters take charge of such things, and elves
appear to exist in more of a strangely violent, racially uptight
“collective” than the other more materialistic races of Cerilia so
internal trade/commerce just operates in a different way.
>To say nothing of the fact that magically creating metals sounds
>suspiciously like the disfavoured conjuration school, of course.
I think one of the issues here is that folks are reading more
significance into the disfavored school issue than is it really
merits. All it really means is that they dont "favor" those spells. There would be few elven specialists in them. There are a lot of spells within that/those schools that are inappropriate for BR elves, but we should neither take that to mean that every spell in a school has the same stigma nor that the school itself is absolutely taboo or beyond their ken. Wall of Iron, for instance, is not something elves might find much joy in compared to, say, Wall of Thorns but where the first is just unusual and not directly related to elven character the latter definitely is and eliminating it from the sidhe repertoire (even though its not even a wiz/sor spell normally) seems like missing the point in order to keep parity with the core rules. Disfavored is a kind of general thing and should mean something more on the order of them avoiding the school rather than never using it at all. That is, theyd conjure things they
actually need, but not enough to trade outside elven realms, or a
standard that was similar to that.
>If one really wanted to say that elves avoided mining, I suspect it
>might be better to push them along the road of having substitutes
>for metals. There are some special materials in Eberron that could
>suit, and if you wanted to you could say that Mithral was some sort
>of plant product…
Retconning mithral into a vegetable for BR elves doesn`t strike me as
being any less drastic a solution than magically created metal, but
whatever works, I guess.
Gary
This is very good.
It is another example of why the GB is an abstraction of many things and not “hard currency”.
I think one of the issues here is that folks are reading more
significance into the disfavored school issue than is it really
merits. All it really means is that they dont "favor" those spells. There would be few elven specialists in them. There are a lot of spells within that/those schools that are inappropriate for BR elves, but we should neither take that to mean that every spell in a school has the same stigma nor that the school itself is absolutely taboo or beyond their ken. Wall of Iron, for instance, is not something elves might find much joy in compared to, say, Wall of Thorns but where the first is just unusual and not directly related to elven character the latter definitely is and eliminating it from the sidhe repertoire (even though its not even a wiz/sor spell normally) seems like missing the point in order to keep parity with the core rules. Disfavored is a kind of general thing and should mean something more on the order of them avoiding the school rather than never using it at all. That is, theyd conjure things they
actually need, but not enough to trade outside elven realms, or a
standard that was similar to that.
Gary
I agree with most of this and have pretty much said the same. I don’t think that there would be specialists in disfavored schools, well at least essentially none since they would be extremely rare to the point of almost singular. So I wouldn’t say “none” but pretty close to being none.
Disfavor means “avoid” and “rare” because of it. Now remembering that arcane magic is not “rare” in elven society compared to other cultures this would logically have that even the “rare” spells are more commmon in elven cultures than in others.
Shunned on the other hand is much more restrictive.
I completely disagree. Even in 2nd Edition, Clerics
were easily equal to countering a wizards magic…and
then smashing a wizard in the head with his mace.
This of course if he was solely prepared to do battle
against a wizard.
The fact that humans had vastly greater numbers than
the Sidhe tells me they also had more clerics than the
Sidhe had wizards. Especially as the Anuirean`s
ancestors had a personal divine patron in the form of
the “King” of the gods. Elsewhere it can be seen that
humans had much less impact on Elvendom than the
Anuireans did. The Anuireans most likely had large
numbers of religious folks chomping at the bit to
enter religious services (just as in the Middle-Ages
when the monastic and priestly orders had massive
influx of “refugees” from among the poor and displaced
during war and famine because the monks and priests
were well taken care of by the common folk as well as
patronage by the nobility).
The reason the elves lost was because of Divine
Magic…as stated in the release of the boxed set.
Elves couldnt heal their soldiers as the humans could. Elves also couldnt compete with the prolific
breeding rate of the humans.
A solid example of superior technology (in this case
magic) still being trumped by an inferior enemy exists
all through our own history: Huns, Franks, Goths,
Vandals and etc. all had inferior technology to the
Eastern and Western Empires of the Romans…but they
still kicked their tails numerous times because of
pure savagery and numbers…Historically it is easily
seen that when an ENTIRE people is on the move, the
only recourse for peoples opposing them is to move,
absorb them, or perish. Earlier tribal invasions of
Roman territory had NOT been entire peoples on the
move; but only raiding and attempts at land grabs by
fewer numbers. Settlement by large swathes of
territory in the Western Roman Empire by barbarians
are the philosophy of absorbtion…but it doesn`t
always pan out. Lazy and debauched…the western
romans forgot to continually train their soldiers into
their fabled Legions and instead started relying on
barbarians for their soldiers.
Soooo…in short:
The Sidhe lost because entire peoples moved into their
territory and outnumbered them. It had little to do
with magic in my thoughts; although the clerics among
the humans no doubt caused a further imbalance and
allowed their less technologically evolved brethren to
overpower the Sidhe on more than one occasion
obviously. The Sidhe were weak…compared to their
new enemy and despite their “greater technology” used
against the enemy. They lost out completely against
the human “technology” of gods!
Anthony Edwards
— irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Noting of course that Realm spells are available to
> non-epic level (i.e., less than 21st level) spell
> casters.
>
> So while epic magic could have existing prior to
> Deismaar - it took the blood of the gods to allow
> non-epic level characters to be able to handle the
> true power.
>
> Also noting that prior to Deismaar no race other
> than those with elven blood could cast true magic.
> In 2nd ed terminology this translated into any spell
> above 2nd level in any school but Illusion and
> Divination. So being capable of casting 5th level
> wizard spells alone would seem deity like when
> compared to humans who couldn`t cast anything above
> 2nd level spells.
>
> If elves could have been casting realm spells while
> humans were limited to 2nd level wizard spells and
> the normal progression of clerical magic - well IMO
> the humans would have “lost” the war without much
> doubt.
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