In this thread I hope those interested will share their ideas, questions, and concerns. I will periodically post a progress report on my conversion, and will announce when drafts are ready to share.
I also hope that some of you guys will be able to brainstorm with me and offer suggestions about converting certain things and balancing flavor vs. crunch. For example, I have converted about 80% of the Blood Abilities without issue, but a few remain that either seem uninspired to me, and so I’m thinking about leaving them out, or have effects that are hard to quantify in a FFF Savage Worlds fashion. I will post my specific concerns later on.
For now, I invite all of you SW fans to get involved with this!
How have you handled bloodlines in terms of SW rules? I assume there is an edge along the lines of “Blooded Scion”, but how did you approach the issue of bloodline score, strength and derivation and # of powers? How are the blood abilities handled, too?
Me too, Tannen. Me,too. Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing your ideas on this.
I have one Edge called “Blooded” that is a background edge. It grants the character a bloodline, and acts as the prerequisite for most arcane spells.
I never liked the wide ranges inherent in the bloodscore generation method of original BR. My current set up is to have the Bloodline Score = 5 + 2D6 (this roll may Ace). In addition, there is another background Edge called Strong Bloodline which grants the character a +7 to this roll. It may be taken multiple times during character gen.
This method will tend to have starting characters with score of about 9-14 or 16-21. Due to the ace, about 1 in 3 characters will have starting scores of somewhat above this.
I prefer to have starting PCs with tainted or minor bloodlines, but other GMs are free to change these rolls to permit higher starting scores.
I allow the PC to choose his derivation.
The bloodscore strength is tied directly to the score, as opposed to overlapping ranges. Powers are given like this:
There is no overlap in ranges and the number of powers granted is streamlined compared to original BR and the BRCS. I’m still tinkering, so your comments are welcome.
I have not decided whether to do random blood ability generation or allow players to choose. I’m leaning towards randomization to prevent munchkinism and to add flavor and RP opportunities. Part of me, though, wants to allow choice, just to be nice to players and allow them to build the characters they want. Your thoughts on this are appreciated too.
I converted many of the blood abilities, but still have quite a few that need work. I will post again with those that need work, and see what the ideas you guys have.
I also need to work out bloodtheft and the mechanics of a nonblooded creature becoming blooded. I’ll probably just have the character gain the blooded edge, generate the score and abilities as normal and require him to “pay off” the Edge with his next Advance.
Here are the racial abilities in my draft conversion:
Dwarf
• Tough: Dwarves are stout and tough. They start with a d6 Vigor instead of a d4.
• Magic Resistant: Dwarves begin play with the Arcane Resistance Edge from the SWRB.
• Brawny: All dwarves start with the Brawny Edge at no cost.
• Darksight: Dwarves can see in near total darkness. They suffer no penalties for Dim and Dark lighting
The only thing missing here is the resistance to blunt weapons. I’m debating how to convert it (maybe +2 Toughness vs. blunt attacks), or if I should just drop it altogether. Dwarves have a nice set of abilities without adding another one.
Elves
• Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4.
• Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
• Wilderness Walk: Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface. They leave no tracks in wilderness environments and thus cannot be tracked. In addition, they are unhindered by terrain and move at full speed regardless.
• Arcane Magic Ability: Elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.
Halfling
• Small: Halflings average only about 4’ tall. Their small size subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
• Luck: Halflings are a hardy folk with a knack for avoiding trouble just before it gets the best of them. They draw one additional benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
• Shadowsight: As Detect Arcana power, but limited to supernaturally evil creatures or undead, and necromantic magic (GM’s call based on origins, effects, and trappings).
• Shadow Walk: As Teleport power. 3 / week with a 15” range. The Halfling must make a Spirit check to activate the power. This check is modified by environmental conditions thusly:
Shadow Walk acts like a Dimension Door that doesn’t permit travel to the Shadow World, only through it. I am considering implementing a rule that this ability and the Teleport spell carries a risk of being temporarily stranded in the Shadow World or waylaid by an inhabitant (maybe “Draw a card- an Ace means you’ve been attacked/trapped/lost” etc).
Maybe this power should change altogether from a dimension door type power to a “plane shift” type power (i.e. actual travel to the SW). Not sure yet. Your thoughts?
Half Elves
Not converted yet
Humans
One free Edge
I haven’t added any mechanical differences between Anuireans, Brecht etc. I think this is more flavor stuff and FFF demands we drop any nit picky de minimis stat or skill bonuses.
I like much of what you’ve done with bloodlines. I, too, disliked the randomness of the bloodline score generation method from 2e. (I’m not really up to speed on the 3.x versions).
I was thinking along the lines of a tiered system of edges such as:
I like your way better (the aceing on the 2d6 roll is an excellent mechanic to simulate the potential for an exceptional bloodline).
Did you have any particular reasons for the values of 5(+2d6) and +7 for “Strong Bloodline”. Would a flat 10+2d6 and then +10 for “Strong Bloodline” simplify things? Just a thought, anyway.
I like the table for bloodline score/ strength /abilities. It really cleans up what always had my players scratching their heads using the 2e tables.
I like the idea of keeping blood abilities random - the “gods” choose their own gifts, not the characters.
Bloodtheft could be handled pretty easily - just add on the additional bloodline points (and determine any new powers if appropriate). I always understood that unblooded characters could not gain a bloodline through bloodtheft, so the issue of “gaining a bloodline in play” should never arise, should it?
I like this. Leave out the resistance to blunt weapons, I always thought that was a bit odd anyway.
Two suggestions - Add the following ‘negative’ racial traits:
• Slow: Dwarves have a pace of 5".
• Magic Resistant: Dwarves have difficulty working arcane magic - costs for improving arcane spellcasting skills are doubled. (Combine this hindrance with the benefit, or drop entirely if dwarves aren’t even allowed the arcane background edge)
Nice. How about adding “Immortal: Elves do not age and are immune to natural diseases”
Also how about some kind of drawback along the lines of the “Outsider” Hindrance when dealing with non-elves?
I assume that shadow sight requires a spirit roll to activate? How many power points does a halfling get to feed these powers? what rate do the power points return at.I realise where the 3 /week comes from, but it looks very “D&D-ish”. It would be nice to somehow tweak the cost of the “teleport” power and the rate at which points return for halflings somehow to achieve the same effect within the paradigm of the SW rules… Not sure on details.
I’d also add:
• Slow: Halflings have a pace of 5" ; and maybe also
• Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4
(I think that Halflings need the ‘Agile’ edge to make them ‘balanced’ with elves and dwarves)
How about:
One free Edge, plus
• Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
• Arcane Magic Ability: Half-elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.
Given how ‘loaded up’ the other races are, I’d say giving humans TWO free edges might be better. (Given that being blooded costs an edge, one of the two free edges will go towards ‘buying’ a bloodline
I agree for sure.
I like what you’ve done with the races here! Nice work.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughtful insight Tannen. You’ve made some really good suggestions here and in your Races post, and I think I will integrate most or all of them. Here are some of my thoughts:
No strong reasons, just trying to eyeball the potential average scores produced by the roll. If I have my math right, your suggested method would tend to produce characters with Bloodline Scores around 16-18 or 26-28. A good roll with aces (and the edge) might up this to 38-40. That puts characters at “high” Tainted or “mid” Minor on average, with a good roll (and the extra Edge) putting them at “low” Major.
These ranges seems perfectly good to me. I wouldn’t go any higher, though. I might consider splitting the difference and doing 5 + 2D6 with Strong Bloodline = +10. I think we are right in the ballpark no matter how we split it, and GMs can give or take +5 as they prefer.
Yeah, me too. I think I will keep it this way.
I agree with the ease of bloodtheft mechanics. Much can probably be lifted from the BRCS or one of the other D20 conversion docs out there. I’ll flesh this out and add it to the SWBR doc in the next few days. I think bloodtheft would require a Coup de Grace attack or a Called Shot to the heart with a piercing melee weapon(@ -6). The called shot would have to kill the character outright to work as bloodtheft. Given the SW rules, the attack would have to inflict at least four wounds to do this (not easy at all).
Regarding non-bloods becoming blooded: I don’t recall right now if this was possible in original BR - I think it was. It is in the BRCS, and I personally feel it should be an option, either through usurpation or Investiture. I think I’ll write it up as I suggested above and have the character gain the Blooded Edge, and require him to “pay off” the Edge with his next Advance. Bloodline Score generation and Derivation would be tied to that of the “donating” scion.
These are all great, and I will them to the conversion doc. Thanks!
I think you might be right about giving humans two Edges, especially considering that most folks will burn one for Blooded. I will change the conversion doc to reflect this. Maybe another SW BR lover will pipe in with their thoughts on this.
I’m less sold on the “Agile” for halflings. I guess it is a matter of whether BR halflings are Hobbit-like or Kender-like (e.g. Lidda from 3rd Ed). The pictures and descriptions make me think “hobbit,” but I guess the D20 racial Dex bonus implies agility. Hmmm. I have to think about this.
When i started the conversion, I went back and forth about the Dwarf magic thing. Allow it? Forbid it? Hinder it? Dwarven wizards seem out of place, but Dwarven “runesmiths” make sense to me. Since SW relies so strongly on trappings to differentiate “wizard vs. runesmith” I left out any restrictions or hindrances on Dwarven arcane magic. I like your suggestion quite a bit - makes a lot of sense and is FFF. I think i might incorporate it into the conversion for now, and maybe we can discuss dwarven magic use with each other and other forum members a bit more. This is more of a “BR Flavor” discussion, than an SW rules issue, I suppose.
Shadowsight: The halfling just needs to concentrate for one round to use the effect. No PPs. I wasn’t even going to require a Spirit roll. I don’t have much a feeling either way. Your thoughts?
Shadow Walk: 3/week is "D&D-ish’ I suppose. I just didn’t want to bog down the character with having to track a separate pool of PPs just for his racial ability. What about eliminating the 3/week, and requiring the character to spend a Benny to activate the power? This limits the power’s usage, and is very SW. It forces the character to weigh the benefits of using the power because it has a cost. Actually. . . I like this a lot. Your thoughts?
Thanks again for your input, T. I’m looking forward to hearing more of your ideas!
As part of the conversion, I went through the Fantasy Worldbuilder Toolkit by PEG, and the Shaintar Player’s Guide by Talisman Studios and added a bunch of spells to those presented in the SW core. If you don’t recognize a spell listed below, in probably comes from one of those two sources.
Here is how I handled arcane magic:
Arcane Magic
Anyone of sufficient Smarts may take Arcane Background (Magic) using the usual SW rules.
Spells
As a universal rule, in addition to rank requirements, all arcane spells have “Blooded” or “Elf” as a prerequisite. However the following spells (only) are considered Lesser Magic, and do not have “Blooded” or “Elf” as a prerequisite:
Do you guys think this list should be expanded? If so, how?
As you can see, this is almost purely Divination & Illusion stuff. Except for Elemental Manipulation, Open/Lock, and Cantrips, there are no other types of magic. In my mind, this captures BR magicians quiet well, but it does leave them without a good bit of utility. Original BR allowed them all 1st & 2nd level spells, so there were useful evocation, abjuration, and transmutation spells.
I think the restrictive nature of D&D classes demanded access to those spells to prevent magicians from being too specialized and hamstrung. However, the flexible nature of SW character creation means a magician type character can have a wide range of skills and Edges that make him useful and fun to play even though he can’t cast Bolt (magic missle) in combat.
Actually, why not simply give blooded scions, cerilian dragons, and elfinborn alike a simply unique edge, called Arcane Mebhaighal Intuition or what ever, and use only that as a requirement for all other spells?
Furthermore, note that you should include more spells. The old material suggested that minor spells (up to 2nd level, not just the lowest of spells) of any kind were available to all mages.
“Blooded” is an Edge in my conversion, so “Blooded” or Elf covers PC races. I figure monsters (inc. dragons) are custom designed based on GM fiat, so there is no concern about a universal prereq. that must apply to monsters with spellcasting ability
Yeah. This is an issue I’m wrestling with. To me, a strict limit to Knowing and Seeming type spells make a lot of sense, and allowing magicians access to Web or Magic Missile (or their SW equivilents) always seemed out of place. Like I mentioned above, I always felt like they were thrown in to keep the class from being underpowered since it basically was a variant wizard. I think the very nature of SW rule will prevent a magician character from being too weak since he’ll have much more flexibility with skills, Edges, weaponry, etc.
That said, if we were to increase the spell list for non-blooded spellcasters, what would you suggest we add? i thought about giving blanket access to all spells with a rank requirement of “Novice.” That is a big group though (esp. when including the spells from outside sources). it also includes lots of fairly powerful magic like Burst, Boost/Lower Trait, etc.
I’m with you Sinister-- no conversion except for Realm Spells. All the spells are straight SW powers.
I have only added two spells for flavor: “Detect/Conceal Bloodline” and “Suppress Bloodline.” The first is really a variant on D/C Arcana (since i wanted to keep the two separate). The second is converted from the BRCS.
I also agree - no conversion of spells. Just use the SW spell list, plus the additional ones from the Fantasy world builder, etc. that you mentioned.
Instead of having blooded, or elf as pre-reqs for certain spells, why not divide up the arcane background edges into two:
Arcane Background (Lesser Magic): Permits access to the list of spells you mentioned for “magician” characters.
and
Arcane Background (True Magic): Requires: Blooded Edge or Elf/Half-Elf Race Permits access to the full spell list.
I think that the list you have put down for magicians is fine. Even though in 2e there were low-level invocations/alterations, etc. I think they were more for “balance” than “flavour”. Axe 'em and keep a simplified list of powers for magicians like the one you have.
does anyone know of a person that actually chooses to play a magician? I have no idea why someone would play one and most certainly not in this 3.5 munchkin world.
In the AD&D Birthright, I have a “back-up” character that has a few levels of spell-casting ability. He could be thought of as a wannabe magician who eventually followed another path (boxman thief). He likes using his “tricks” on the side to help himself get out of trouble, but no more. He is mainly a thief. The casting ability is his little secret.
I have never actually played him though. Just one of my options if my druid ever dies.
I initially had my notes written that way. I changed it to the singular AB with Blooded or Elf as prereq for spells for two reasons: Bloodtheft and Bards. If there are two ABs and a nonblooded character becomes blooded, there is more complication in order to allow him access to more spells. The current way allows him immediate access.
For bards, I have written up a Professional Edge that includes spellsong training. This training satisfies the “elf” requirement for a short list of enchantment type spells (e.g. puppet, confuse the mind, etc).
Now that I look at it, I suppose that my method is no more or less elegant than just having two separate ABs. For bloodtheft, the rule could be that AB True is automatically substituted for AB Lesser (with current known spells remaining the same). The reverse would occur if a character lost his bloodline. For bards, I already have a “special access list,” so there is no mechanical or flavor difference at all.
6 or 1/2 dozen, I suppose. I’ll think about this some more. Any suggestions you guys have about this are welcome.
I am partial to the magician, but then again- I am a big fan of bards. They defy the traditional roles in D&D parties (tank, blaster, healer, traps), and require creativity to play well.
I think magician type characters would be far more interesting and fun to play in SW for the reasons stated in my earlier post (i.e. flexibility).