Has anyone ever had a preist/preistess of 2 different gods? for example, a dwarven preistess of Moradin who also serves Haelyn. That describes Emerald. Just wondering if anyone else that has been in this situation has found it difficult to know when to pray/call upon whom. Although Moradin and Haelyn are in the same mythos and essentially have the same goals in mind (just different races), I am sure they are to some degree slightly less forgiving than would be a Preistess of sole faith in the one deity.
Be aware Emerald that many people will argue that Moradin and his followers would not allow you to worship two gods!
It should not be possible for a priest to serve two different gods. priestcraft means complete involvement to one specific ethos and god. in all D&D ever published it was never allowed to do it. the kalamar setting has recently invented the possibility to serve an alignement and not a specific god.
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM
Azrai wrote:
>
> It should not be possible for a priest to serve two different gods.
> priestcraft means complete involvement to one specific ethos and
> god. in all D&D ever published it was never allowed to do it. the
> kalamar setting has recently invented the possibility to serve an
> alignement and not a specific god.
You could serve alignment in 2e according to the Complete Book of Priests.
I would allow worship of two gods if their goals were compatable and they
were allied. A priest who worshiped Erik and Avani would be acceptable to
me. One faith in Cerilia already combines the worship of Ruornil and Erik
I frequently put priests of one god in temples of allied gods. Temples of
Haelyn use priests of Cuiraecen as heralds.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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The explanation for this character is that she is a dwarf who began life believing in Moradin and therefore was a priest of Moradin. However, she was thrust into being an ambassador to the United Provinces of Haelyn from Baruk-Azhik. There she met the Abbess Allesandra who taught her about the greatness of Haelyn. The dwarf saw that both Moradin and Haelyn were great and started praying to them both. To the dwarves she preaches about Moradin and to the humans she preaches about Haelyn spreading the faith of both. She has even gotten some humans interested in Moradin but no dwarfs have shown an interest in Haelyn. In fact many of the dwarves frown on her praying to a human god and think she should lose her thrown.
By the way, all the rules are adaptable to what works for your campaign. So AZRAI doesn’t like, then don’t allow it to happen in your campaign.
I think it is possible to be a priest of different gods. I believe in ancient medievil times that people would pray to the earth god for good crops, and the war god for victory in battle. I think modern thinking would not allow this, being raised with the one god only religions, and all others are the devil. Of course that idea was started in the midevil times as well. I also just started a BR campaign using the RuneQuest rules system which seems to be working out quite well, I’m starting the group out in the King of the Giatdowns adventure. In the RQ rules though they allow priests of different gods, as long as they are not in oppositional faiths.
Originally posted by kgauck
I would allow worship of two gods if their goals were compatable and they
were allied. A priest who worshiped Erik and Avani would be acceptable to
me. One faith in Cerilia already combines the worship of Ruornil and Erik
I frequently put priests of one god in temples of allied gods. Temples of
Haelyn use priests of Cuiraecen as heralds.
This might be, but allied churches doesn’t mean the worship of two different gods. A priest of Cuiraécen is a priest of Cuiraécen, even if he accepts Cuiraécens father Haelyn and his mother Nesirie. The priest of Cuiraécen might even accept an order of a Haelyn highpriest, but of respect, not of worship!
The idea of a whole pantheon worship is accepted in several campaigns, but in the Birthright rulebook a priest must coose a specific god! He gets the specific powers of his religion then. If he would worship two different gods, he would be something like a PHB standard cleric without any special powers…
@kgauck
You can not compare anything from the CBoPriests to the Birthright setting. CBoPriests only contained models for specific campaign worlds.
@blitzmacher
you also cannot compare ancient medievil times to the birthright campaign. it’s fantasy, the gods are directly involved.
The Book of Priestcraft clearly shows that a priest can only serve one god and recieve spells from only one god.
there is no!! compaign world ever published that allows to serve two gods (to repeat myself).
Orginally posted by Ariadne
The idea of a whole pantheon worship is accepted in several campaigns, but in the Birthright rulebook a priest must coose a specific god! He gets the specific powers of his religion then. If he would worship two different gods, he would be something like a PHB standard cleric without any special powers...
Again, that all depends on the DM and how he chooses to handle the rules governing his world. It does add an intersting flavor to the storyline though. In alot of good stories, you have someone realizing that there are different paths to be traveled other than the comfortable path that everyone has taken for centuries. If that person is strong willed and determined to bring the world just a little closer together, amazing things can happen. Sometimes it just takes an idea planted in enough peoples ear to get them to try something new. Of course, her theory is that the gods permit this to happen because she is trying to gain more followers for each deity. I’m sure Haelyn would be tickled if she managed to get the entire dwarven nation to, at the very least, acknowledge his power. Emerald believes that if a god is all about having many many followers, then the more the merrier and maybe, just maybe, one day, the humans and dwarves (and maybe those… elves) can stand side by side and unite to fight the disease of evil that plaques the land. Of course, the dwarves are pretty stubborn, but her father made an alliance with the United Provinces of Haelyn and right now, Baruk Azhik is getting thier butts saved from borrowed forces of the UPofH. So, maybe they will start to see the power of Haelyn and start to gain a little interest.
If you haven’t noticed, she’s a little passionate about all of this.
Orginally posted by Azrai
The Book of Priestcraft clearly shows that a priest can only serve one god and recieve spells from only one god.there is no!! compaign world ever published that allows to serve two gods (to repeat myself).
The DM can allow whatever he chooses into his world. You can’t sit there and tell me that he can’t. Are the rules police going to break down our groups door and throw Lord Eldred in jail because he chooses to have a little creative flavor in his campaign? I think not. It’s not fair to other DM’s to sit there and state the rules say this and the rules say that and that they are wrong if they deviate!
RPG’s were not designed to be followed to every single letter of the rulebook. It’s all foundation to be built on my friend, not concrete rules to be adhered to with no deviation.
Don’t forget DM’s perrogative. The biggest rule is to have fun! If the campaign is full of interesting elements such as the worship of 2 gods, and the players enjoy it, then great! So be be it!
If you chose not to allow it your world, nobody says you have to.
All I am saying here is don’t start spouting out what rulebooks say and implying that it is fundamentally wrong to play the way we do. We enjoy how we play and the houserules we have established and we will continue playing that way.
Well said Emerald but I warned you that people would say that you can’t worship two gods.
I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.
By the way Azrai just because no one thought of allowing it before in a campaign world doen’t necessarily mean that is the right way to play.
I don’t think that the question is whether or not a person can worship more than one god. After all, that is what polytheism is all about. The question that should be asked is whether or not a priest can fully serve more than one deity. Especially in such structured and ordered religions as those of two gods of rulership and order. Being a priest to a deity and fulfilling all doctrinal requirements, ceremonies, etc, is a full time job. Unless the deities decide to be lenient on the poor priest they could wear her to the bone.
As for the alignment worship thing, its much older than the complete book of priests, I think it was in the original D&D because the authors were somewhat queasy about dealing with polytheism (isn’t that what that whole imortals thing was about too?)
you also cannot compare ancient medievil times to the birthright campaign. it’s fantasy, the gods are directly involved.
What do you mean? Even the makers themselves use realworld history in making a fantasy game. In many cultures they believed the gods were directly involved with their lives.
I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.
I think you may be right LE. I just looked through my RuneQuest book, and it says that one person can be full worshipers of multiple religions, but the responsibility of being a priest requires him to give at least 90% of his time time his god. Therefore making it impossible to be a priest of two gods. Although one could be a priest in one and a believer in a couple more, as long as they’re allied gods. But as far as your campaign goes, do what you want as long as everyone is having fun right.
I don’t get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be pulled in multiple directions, why couldn’t a priest serve two gods? It is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make sure neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other staff are for…
On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 00:07, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
Lord Eldred wrote:
Well said Emerald but I warned you that people would say that you can`t worship two gods.
I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.
By the way Azrai just because no one thought of allowing it before in a campaign world doen`t necessarily mean that is the right way to play.
I think a non-priest might commonly hedge his/her bets with the
“worship” of more than one god. A priest is slightly more devoted,
although in some benign pantheons (even BR in the case of
Belinik/Kriesha/Azrai) a priest admitting to “belief/homage” of more
than one deity is entirely possible, although the fact of “being a
priest of X” is a more restrictive relationship. Even if a character
could claim to be a priest of more than one god, the relationship w.r.t.
the granting of spells and powers etc is not one that is the choice of
the character - but the choice of the gods.
From a game mechanics point of view, allowing such would leave the
system open to min/max`ing in a big way, rather than being strictly
mono-theistic in attitude/thinking. From a godly thinking point of view,
there are good reasons for a particular god claiming a believer - and
being jealous (in the strict sense of the word) of other claims - to the
point where only one god can claim the character at any time. Certainly,
(schizophrenic characters notwithstanding) from a game point of view
switching back and forth is undesirable. However a priest may belong to
the hierarchy of one faith (and genuinely still “follow/believe/pay
homage to” the god of that faith, yet still draw their powers from
another god (although you would have to consider them outside any faith
of that god - to be a singleton so to speak). Infiltration of one faith
by another would also be possible.
The mundane aspects of a faith, e.g. observation of holy rituals,
knowledge of holy days events (including all the old 2e NWP Religion) ,
ability to wear armor, use of weapons etc would be of the faith belonged
to (or in the case of an infiltrator, the least common denominator of
the two faiths).
Essentially then, even in a situation where ALL of a pantheon are
routinely worshiped by the entire populace (which includes the
priests), a single god will tend to bestow their favors to their
favorites respecting the rights/wishes of the other gods in this matter
– not withstanding their efforts to steal the best of them away - but
such would represent a change of faith rather than dual-faith.
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Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:19 PM
Lord Eldred wrote:
> I don`t get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be
pulled in multiple directions, why couldn`t a priest serve two gods? It
> is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make
> sure neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while
> ruling her country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other
staff
> are for…
Most of the rest of us only have 100% to work with. Its only those of you
under the effects of a permenant Haste spell that can give twice that.
AFAIC, being able to serve both gods is only possible when the gods want it
to be possible. Both Eric and Avani might be content with prayers and
cerimonies that celibrate both the sun and nature. Rather than giving 100%
to your job and your family, its more like running a day-care out of your
home for a living.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 12:19, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
Lord Eldred wrote:
I don`t get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be
pulled in multiple directions, why couldn`t a priest serve two gods? It
is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make sure
neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her
country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other staff are
for...
Let me use your analogy.
If providing for your family was not an issue, (i.e. whether you work or
not they will be provided for no matter what they need or desire), would
spending more time with your family be beneficial to them? Would they
benefit from you being more available to them? Could you give more value
to them?
If so, then you are not giving 100% to your family unconditionally. You
are doing so within the constraints that your job imposes (even though
in doing your job you meet some of the needs and desires of your family
- you so so indirectly).
On the one hand:
Now depending on your theology viewpoint, gods can be jealous - they can
require 100% from their chosen and favored priests. (“I am the Lord your
God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.” – what about after?, –
what does the god that comes after think? etc etc) (Azrai for sure at
least and note the use of the personal thou - in the intimate form -
this god personally connects with his subjects - all of them not just
the priests - makes you wonder eh?)
And on the other hand:
Of course, an interpretation of divine behavior could be that a god is
prepared to accept 20% instead of 100%. This however doesnt seem to be the case in the BR world, at least in the case of the more major` gods.
But Laerme as one example, could qualify.
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I think the case for Emerald is that her country is being overtaking by Orogs. The dwarves are losing. Moradin feels bad. Sends them Emerald who has made friends with humans who are committed to Haelyn. Moradin goes to Haelyn and says how about we get our dwarves and humans together to defeat the Orogs and both nations will prosper. Haelyn asks what is in it for him and Moradin offers to share the priestess Emerald and allow the teachings of Haelyn in his country if the teachings of Moradin are allowed in Haelyn’s. It is a situation that both benefit from…
Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her country.
I ask me, how Emerald does it. Has she two shrines standing together? Flips she a coin, if praying in the morning? In my oppinion she can’t pray to one god and don’t anger the other. O.K., it might be usefull to have a second deity at hand, but I don’t think this can go for long until she is stripped from spells by both!
Why Emerald wanted truly to switch gods? An allied priest of Haelyn would fill the hole, I think. They can fight together against orogs, but neither would anger his deity.
I think there is a difference between an allience between two gods and
the facts, that a priest serves a god. emerald could teach haelyns dogma
in the dwarven lands - but she would still pray to Moradin.