I was wondering if I’m the only one that feels the construction of ships has gotten very difficult?
Almost all the Anuirean rulers that have some naval power have Galleons with the exception of Brosengae. Most Khinasi realms with naval power have Zebecs.
The major problem with this though, is that according to the rules, then to construct a Galleon you need a shipyard level 8, and since the shipyard level can’t exceed the province level, this means that only Imperial City can construct galleons, so all galleons, also those held by pirates and such, must all be bought in Imperial City?
The same goes for Zebecs. Their cost of 17 GB means that you need a shipyard level 9 to build it. Since I can’t remember any level 9 provinces in Khinasi, then they too order their ships in Imperial City?
In the old system you could construct any ship as long as you had a level 4 port. Maybe we should put in that instead, otherwise it makes little to no sense.
It should be difficult to construct ships. The 2nd ed mechanics were too loose and had no real basis in reality.
From personal experience (I’ve worked at the 2nd largest, was the largest up to about 7 years ago) naval shipyard in the world for going on 24 years now and I can verify that ship construction is very expensive and time consuming.
Even if one tries to say that modern construction is more difficult than medieval construction, that is the level of detail involved, I would also point out that there were more limitations on population (i.e., the number of people who can be dedicated to constructing ships), resources (it was harder to transport the materials needed to construct ships in older times - which is why they were built near the sources of the materials necessary), maintenance costs - skilled labor that didn’t maintain proficiency got worse with time (actually this concept applies to both time periods).
Basically shipyard maintenance costs are probably too low in the BRCS based on resource allocation to maintain proficiency. If one shifts the skill labor to other (more lucrative tasks) then they make a ship much slower due to skills atrophying. On the other hand the profit margin for ship construction is probably also too low.
I’m not saying that it’s not difficult to construct ships. I know it’s a complicated process. But the ships require too large shipyards. It can’t be true that you can only have galleons and zebecs constructed in Imperial City, because no other province is large enough for a ship yard that size.
If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn’t have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed.
If anything, then I might suggest, if there should be the limit for how much you can build, that you may construct ships with 3 times the shipyards size. That way we have more provinces than Imperial City that can construct Galleons and Zebecs.
If you want to put more upkeep on shipyards, then you’ll be hurting the already very wounded Ilien. 2GB to upkeep that they spend for a level 6 shipyard is already hurting them a lot, with their 10GB income and the need for a 7GB court and their castle.
If you want to prevent people from getting too huge fleets, then simply remove the garrison option from them, so that the cost for a galleon is 1 1/4 GB per turn. Then people might not have fleets that are colossal.
There was a lot of discussion a while ago concerning raising the size of a shipyard above the listed limit based but with an increased cost. I’d have to do a more in depth search of older threads (I think it was early this past summer). This was something that was going to be incorporated into the revision of the chapter (remember the chapter has not been revised yet so you are still looking at the playtest version). I think Ian posted the suggestion, but I can’t recall.
If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn’t have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed
Are we assuming that only Constantinople was of high enough level (in BR terms)? I wouldn’t. I think in each of your specific examples there was at least one city that was of sufficient level to accomplish this and most had their equivalent.
I don’t see any reason to construct galleons at all if they are expensive and hard to build.
In the world where
one Control Weather spell or
single aquatic elf with Warp Wood or
single dire octopus controlled by spellcaster or
etc. etc.
can destroy all the fleet, there is no sense for building big and expensive ships.
Caravels, cogs (sailing ships) and coasters are enough to transport mass, cheap things or soldiers for trade routes and rulers.
I used Constantinoble since I seem to remember that as being the largest city in the past. So Imperial City would be Constantinoble in my example.
As for why to choose Galleons over cogs/caravels? (Cogs and Caravels are about the same strength, just Cogs being slower), then the galleons ability to carry three units is a definite advantage when you are going to attack someone or board someone.
Also the mentioning of magic getting involved, then I personally feel that a battlecaster is better in a strong, well-defended and powerful unit than in one of three weaker ones.
Aquatic elf in Birthright? Forget the commonality of high level magic found in Forgotten Realms and go with the lower level spellcasters of BR. There are not many wizards in BR (those that can cast greater magic) so it becomes greatly limited.
While it is possible for high level cleric (or druid) to do this. The caster still has to be in the area since the spell is centered on the caster.
Galleons and Zebecs are warships whose primary function is to transport ships. a caravel or cog can carry a single mounted unit, but as written a Zebec cannot - at one time we discussed the fact that the Zebec’s numbers were too low.
Basically a galleon can carry 3 foot units or 2 mounted units. So getting troops to a given location is quicker with it than a caravel or cog. In combat a galleon and zebec both pound the cravel and cog into obliteration, again they are war ships and not efficient for use in a sea trade route, while caravels and cogs are more suited for that function. Caravels and cogs are not about the same strength as a galleon. A difference of 1 hit for a military unit is tremendous. The galleons defense rating, and melee attack are much higher.
There are fewer than 150 true mages in Cerilia (Book of Magecraft). Of those we have maybe 50 in the College of Sorcery, since they have a dozen students who train 3-10 years. Then the 10 council leaders. Then the maybe 20 other mages around Anuire, including the realm mages.
Other than these, we have 3 mages in Rjurik lands, a couple of handfulls in Brecht lands. Then I’m not sure how many in Khinasi lands, but it can’t be many more than 30, since we also got the Elves and they really have at least 30 mages too.
Given these numbers, that would leave your chance of encountering a Wizard on sea insanely low, and of those encountered you’ll not find many of high enough level to cast fireball.
That’s a good addendum. However, I still think that the easiest one is this; if you can overbuild your fortresses compared to the level of the province, why can’t you do the same with your shipyards? Just increase the cost and maintenance of them.
Venice was for a great period of time the largest port within catholic nations (in the 12th and 13th century it was also the largest city within catholic nations).
If it is set at 2.5 * province level, Anuire can nbuild galleons at the Imperial City, Bhaine in Taeghas, Anuire in Avanil, Calrie in Aerenwe, Ciliene in Diemed, and 1 or 2 provinces in Boeruine.
The idea that only a level 8 city can build a galleon is just dumb. According to the naval battle rules many realms have large navies. The city of Ilien, who’s port is supposed to be the greatest in southern Anuire, can’t build ships according to that rule. If it was added to “prevent” players from having huge navies, then it is an even dumber rule. Placing limits on a player is a sure way to get them to abandon your game. Besides, the fleet cost rules pay for the ships themselves, not the units you put on them. You can have all the ships you can afford but if you have no units to put on them, your navy is going to suck. Lift the limits on ship building, If a player wants to build navies and puts his resources and energy in that direction, there’s no reason not to let them.
Besides, if you can exceed the castle rating beyond the province level, you should be able to do the same with ship building.
[i]Originally posted by Angelbialaska+Jan 26 2005, 05:55 PM–></div><table border=‘0’ align=‘center’ width=‘95%’ cellpadding=‘3’ cellspacing=‘1’><tr><td>QUOTE (Angelbialaska @ Jan 26 2005, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id=‘QUOTE’> There are fewer than 150 true mages in Cerilia (Book of Magecraft). [/b]
And:
<!–QuoteBegin-Angelbialaska[/i] OIT in Diemed
Total number of clergy: 221
About half of the clergy should be level 0, which in D&D probably means Experts, while the other half (about 110) consist of spellcasting clerics. [/quote]
So, mages are rare.
Clerics not so rare. There are a druids too, and a lot of monsters.
And even if we assume, that all they are rare, i have a strange feeling, that among PCs there will be a lot of spellcasters, because players like magic.
And I have second strange feeling, that tens of gold bars speneded on the galeons are enough to hire one spellcaster to sink a fleet down.
So imho ships should be cheap as other cannon foder and available at every province with a shipyard and access to the wood (thanks to the forest-type or a trade route to the forest).
Originally posted by Thomas_Percy@Jan 26 2005, 05:28 PM Clerics not so rare. There are a druids too,
Druids are part of the cleric numbers. See 2nd ed material Druids are clerics of Erik. That is even in the playtest document or the latest version of Chap 1 there are no free ranging druids in Birthright they get their power and abilities from their patron deity, Erik.
Essentially the priests of Erik are divided amongst clerics and druids. These are rare in all but Rjurik lands so comng across druids throughout Cerilia is pretty rare in itself.
One thing with ships, in my games I have always used their muster costs (e.g. 15 GB for a Galleon) to be their BUILD cost, not the price you have to pay if you want to buy the ship for someone else.
I make the PURCHASE price an addition 1/3 higher than the build cost. So using the galleon for example, it would cost 15 GB to make, and 20 GB to buy outright.
Also, it is just me or do the stats for Zebec really not match up well with the Galleon, despite costing 2 GB more to build a Zebec. It was the same way in 2E of course, but I would have expected more from a ship that is built specifically for war. I guess those Khinasi just aren’t good shipbuilders.
I’ve always thought that the market value of a ship should be twice what you had to pay to build it Similarly to the way the craft skill works. That way it is mechanically similar to the core rules and a handy profit is made by a shipyard.
And yes I don’t quite like the Zebec’s numbers either. Should have more bunks and hits, IMO. Less cargo than a galleon but more troop capacity and a stronger hull. It is as pure a warship as you get, while the galleon can function as a cargo ship too, albeit an expensive one.
I have no problem with the market value being x2 the build cost. Sure makes those shipyards important to realms, and gives those high level coastal provinces a nice industry (ship building) to boost their income.
It could also provide a solution to Ilien’s gold problem. All the count needs to do is built one galleon a season, sell it, and he makes an extra 15 GB income, enough to cover the cost of his shipyard, and his other assets.
Solving Ilien’s lack of gold thru ship-building is how I actually made ends meet in one campaign I played. That, plus alchemy could turn a tidy sum for Ilien. Other players often didn’t want to spend the time on ship-building, or needed to rebuild fleets quickly, after an engagement. However, I never sold them for twice their value. Usually, I would only get about a 3 or 4 GB profit for a galleon, 1 or 1.5 for a caravel. Finding buyers was difficult; except once the pirates started attacking, and then, man, I couldn’t build enough of them! Guilders were usually happy to buy off of me… and I suspect one or two of 'em WERE the pirates. Rogr turned a blind eye to the buyers, as long as the economy flowed.
He also had the deal worked out that El-hadid would get a “favoured” rate, and would only pay cost plus 10%.
It got dull sometimes spending so many court actions on build actions. But, ah well.
I think a rate of 30%-60% is about right, depending on demand. I can’t imagine spending 30 GB’s for a Galleon, it really does not seem worth it. You could conquer a medium sized realm for the cost of 2 of them. 25 GB’s is about the most I could see paying, and then only if I was really desperate.