Starting Trade Routes

It shouldn’t be a game buster. It should be a reasonable strategy for a small realm. The game should already impose brutal diseconomies of scale as a domain gets too large. With only three actions, its quite easy to cause havok on a large realm, just putting out fires, never mind dealing with rivals.

Boeruine and Avanil don’t have pet guilders because they don’t want the money, obviously they do, and they get it. But to deal with the complications of a hybrid realm and the mere size problem, a vassal is the best way to make use of those holdings.

We’ve talked about ways to impose diseconomies of scale, like having random events for every domain sized thing, so Talinie, gets two random events, one realm directed, one temple directed.

Another stiffer penalty is to make loyalty a serious problem when you can’t collect regency (for any holding) in a province.

I disagree Ken, total control of a realm (i.e. totalitarian dictatorship) generally has horrible side effects quite apart from action constraint issues and regardless of the size of the realm.

Even though scientific advance is far less important in a medieval world like Cerilia, and similarly economies are far less advanced, the realm is still going to suffer badly if the ruler refuses to share any power or influence at all, multiple power centers make advancement possible encouraging people to strive to better themselves (within social roles of course) and also minimises the damage caused by a single idiot in charge of everything.

I’d have no problem with vassalage of all other regents in a realm, but the ‘munchkin approach’ to play is usually to eliminate all vassals as they are seen purely as a cost, or as potential rivals. I’d see a realm with only 1 all-dominating regent as a land where anyone with talent or ability has left to win fame and fortune elsewhere - why stay when the guy at the top refuses to consider sharing the power/ wealth in even the slightest degree? Crushing the nobility and middleclass in such a fashion should have all sorts of downsides…

I see it as a game buster, but for a different reason: if two regents are fighting to control one type of holding the PC ruler has too much power to drive one out and let the other one get the holding levels. Maybe it’s realistic, but it bugs me a lot.

The extra power comes from the character being a PC, or from some other circumstance?

Well, for NPCs I can control that behavior and not do it, but I haven’t found any good explanation to discourage the PC landed regent to not do that to protect the guilder PC regent (that is also his adventures friend).

My question was, why is it a problem in the first place. If some theoretical action is a problem, it should be disadvantageous for both NPC’s and PC’s alike. Simply restraining NPC’s only addresses a problem from the NPC side.

I can think of a dozen reasons why any character is asking for trouble trying to hold every type of holding themselves, but those may not address the issue you have.

I agree it would be a problem if the character tries to hold all the holdings for himself, mostly because he wouldn’t have enough actions to develop/protect all of them.

My problem comes when the land regent player uses his position of power to help another player hold all the holdings, it’s too easy to use taxes to force other regents out of your domain except the ones you want to be in without the expensive contest/rule war that would be needed without taxes.

This also is a problem for me because it creates too easily power blocks in kingdoms (like Avanil, where every regent bows to Avan) instead of what happens in most other places where domains overlap and are mixed in a more chaotic way.

Maybe it has to do with my way of playing too, but I would be glad to get some comments about how to discourage that behavior.

I see the answer as roleplaying - powerblocks encourage counter-reactions, dissent within the ranks (why is our noble prince consorting with lowly guilders and giving them fine titles?) and so on.

In Ruins of Empire each holding has ‘goals’ - stated broad ideas of what the domain considers important / wants to achieve. Many of these overlap or are contradictory to the goals of other domains - even ‘allied’ ones. Going against goals such as 'don’t swear fealty, keep at least 50% of the guild outside of any one realm to prevent domination, etc then causes major internal problems since the regent is clearly pushing the domain in a direction it doesn’t want to go - the regent could of course try to change the domains intentions up front, but they’d better be persuasive!

As long as you clearly state to players that their domains have these goals, having their npc’s go great captain, impose loyalty drops, RP losses, etc if they ignore the goals is fair enough. Particularly if you show the suffering happening to npc’s who go Louis the 16th first or explain why the poor roleplaying of the domain is a problem.

My real problem is with the ruler simply declaring martial law and wiping out other holdings - or threatening it to enforce dominance. Even casual talk of pillaging holdings forces the other regents to kowtow unless they are sure that the DM will impose crippling penalties for the occupation.

I don’t see this as a totalitarian dictatorship, since that would impose a kind of government not invented yet into a renaissance scenario. We have plenty of examples that seem to show three of the real four together without much difficulty. Medici Florence, the Counts of Tyrol, Venice (which can go for four since they often had considerable influence on the Church), the Counts of Champagne, all spent some time controlling the local wealth. Protestant countries took control of the Church, and since the Church actually was an obstacle to the new learning of the renaissance science and learning shifted north.

None of this strikes me as horrible.

I’d see a realm with only 1 all-dominating regent as a land where anyone with talent or ability has left to win fame and fortune elsewhere - why stay when the guy at the top refuses to consider sharing the power/ wealth in even the slightest degree? Crushing the nobility and middleclass in such a fashion should have all sorts of downsides…

All of this assumes way, way more than is implied by having all of the holdings. The Hanseatic League lasts beyond the Reformation and so there is a time where many Hanseatic cities and countries controlled their own trade (and part of a shrinking trade empire) their religion, their law, and their land. They took part in the progress of the North after the Renaissance. On the other hand, they weren’t game breakers either.

This is not at all what I am talking about. This the obvious bull in a china shop way to get to the ends under discussion. But in no way is this the only way to go about affairs. Talinie starts with law, land, and temple. This game already broken?

The easiest way to encourage multiple, overlapping regents, and to discourage picking off holdings of other domains in your area is to make having contact with other holdings where you have holdings to be useful.

For instance, if you and I have holdings in a province, we can do most kinds of basic diplomacy as a court action anywhere this occurs. Otherwise its a domain action.

Using your domain as a conduit for espionage, basically my guys asking your guys, heard any news lately? Its cheap and easy if we share holdings. We can’t spy on one another this way, the question was “heard any news” not “what are your secrets”. But we can gather information on the domain level as a court action espionage. Otherwise espionage gets harder and harder because every bit of news has to be gotten the spy way, with all its costs and risks, rather than just collecting news.

Another kind of benefit is that when third parties mis-behave, neutrals in your area are likely to back you this one time, against the bad actor. If you’re alone no one comes when you need help. This one can be the difference between a domain with a lot of friendly, neutral realms who lend support from time to time, and the lonely realm surrounded by enemies who has no friends, or one close ally.

Imagine a neighborhood. Are you friendly, keep your yard nice, keep your music down, end parties at a reasonable hour? Maybe you get invited to the neighbor’s barbecue. Do you spray neighbor kids with the hose if they get on your lawn? Are you suspected of poisoning a neighbor dog that admittedly barked all night? Do you key cars that park in front of your house. Do you call the police at the drop of a hat? No one cares of you get cancer. Think of the world of regents and scions as a neighborhood, or playground. If you play nice with others they will play nice with you. When a bully comes along, people will back you up. If you are the bully, everyone roots for you to get you hat handed to you.

Sometimes you try to hold as much as you can not because of power, but of fear. Sometimes you can’t trust anyone. Though this makes hard to hold all the reins.
Certainly dividing the “business” between people will make it easier on yourself, but then you’ll have to play you cards well. It’s easy if you have the leverage, but what if you are a ruler and someone else dictates the politics?
There are pros and cons for each choice, and certainly there’s a need to keep it all balanced to run smoothly.

This makes no sense to me. Nobles are not peasants done good any more than guilders are craftsmen done good. Nobles and guilders (and priests and wizards) are the same people, siblings, cousins, and other equal relations.

Take Dhoeosne. The guilders are all of the same bloodline strength as the counts are. One of them, Mheallie Bireon, is substantially greater. Guilders and Counts form a common marriage pool. They are cousins, in-laws, and so on.

The medieval church was run (Bishops, Archbishops, and Cardinals) by the nobility and very talented commoners. The Church leaders socialized, identified, and cooperated with the nobility.

Likewise guilds would work the same way. Not by rising from the ranks to leadership any more than the church, but by providing opportunities for nobles to direct an organization.

The medieval social construction of status was based on one’s family, one’s marriages, one’s offices, and one’s accomplishments. I see no reason to assume Cerilia is any different. Bloodlines are real, manifest, and directly useful. One’s family and one’s marriages (and therefore the basis of one’s heirs) may or may not be more important, but its hard to imagine how a character with two minor blood abilities can look at another character with two minor blood abilities and think, he’s lowly. Guilders are no less educated, sophisticated, or worldly.

Historically economic enterprises were not united into domains the way church and realm were, so that nobles could not find their social equals in the world of commerce, until the 19th century when it was possible to find men who owned so much, so many ships, so many factories, but this is why you can’t just use historical analogies without considering how Cerilia is different from our historical experience.

When we find occasional analogs, they have shifted from being obvious guilders to being aristocratic. But I contend there is no difference. The Medici were a dynasty, who merely happened to be bankers, then bankers and executives in a Florentine republic, then Grand Dukes of Tuscany, marrying into French (Catherine, Marie) royalty and Austrian (Claudia and Anne Marie) as well.

England experienced an unusual relationship between nobles and merchants that was unique to England because of its inheritance system, its commercial success, and its different definition of nobility. Case 1 and 3 don’t exist anywhere in Cerilia.

Money seeks land because it seeks a safe store of value that is a hedge against inflation and price changes. Land seeks money because land is not at all liquid. If we conjecture a guild domain, with people clearly manifest as scions at the head, its hard to imagine why they were not be seen as total equals.

I’m looking at how the holding spilts analogue to society as a whole.

The issues I was referring to were the monopoly and the huge power block syndromes

Monopoly implies that the ruler has dispossed all rivals near and far - the rest of the nobility / clergy / etc have effectively been dispossed. As such you get dissent from those who should be your core supporters as they stop seeing you as the apex of a triangle they’d like to win a higher place in and start seeing you as someone forcing them down into lower status.

The power block approaxh while fine meta gaming has similar issues regardless of social mobilty, if a noble ruler ignores the wants and needs of the lower nobility as they provide no game mechanic bonus, but courts the guild,temple and source regents (and vice versa) then again they should generate perverse reactions within their domain.

It is hard to make mechanics for this, but easy for dm fiat to warn and then respond to.

In terms of mobility low mobility cripples long term stability - as does social exclusion for castes between spheres of influence.

I’d see the br approach being a noble’s children going heir, army, clergy, guild - the nobles (having the capital to invest) will be behind most guilds, and spreading in such a way maximises familial influence and reduces family risk. Even so, you will get a lot of ‘us and them’ between domains that must be considered in diplomacy.

Yeah, I find it very hard to make rules for that, although Kenneth ideas are nice. Usually when this happens to me all the involved regents are PCs, so it’s not like that they aren’t going to support each other, but I can see how this could make their foreign relations much harder.

Regards,

Vicente

Rules exist so that people don’t have to think.

Or in more detail, don’t make a contract with your players about how domains function, or how war works. Use the rules, such as they are, as guide-lines, this is normal for this situation, but its not reliable. Old school D&D manages this with wild randomization. Modern D&D (both 3x and 4e) is less random, but with the DM’s friend the +2 to -2 penalty, you don’t get much flexibility. There are circumstances that are clearly predictable, but worth way more than just a -2 (or +2) and may require more fundamental adjustments to the rules. Do what makes sense and adjust the rules as necessary, including on the fly. You can’t (nor would you want to) create comprehensive rules for war or politics. Its better, to know certain fundamental principles and to impose penalty or rewards because of how the principles play out in a given situation.

Strict rules allowed players to hold on to them and argue with DM who is right and who is left and which rule has precedence over other and that kind of outplaying and outmaneuvering one another. Never liked those sessions. There’s no role play, just bending the rules in your favor. When you have a friendly DM, even without rules (but with guidelines) you can arrange and discuss everything (with a little improvisation help). Accept failed missions and battles, because you can’t win them all.

Well, I’m in strange position about that. Your writing is great for pure roleplaying, but I hope to translate Birthright (my own version) to a computer version, so I need pretty strict rules and players have to know how they work and what’s expected from them.

You can have a lot of nice roleplaying and interaction in a sandbox, but the rules have to be clear and precise. But I agree that for pen and paper, your approach is how things should be.

Its so true, computers don’t think. So you need rules, because that’s what they are good for.

What I would do for a computer is have separate variables for love, fear, and respect, and when they are all high, things work normally. When one or more of them start to fall, the chance of bad random events starts up.

See also my review of Crusader Kings
http://www.birthright.net/forums/showpost.php?p=49221&postcount=1