Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics

OK, folks, for the next question about Sidhelien culture, I`m curious
how people think the Taelinri should be portrayed game
mechanically. A few questions:

  1. Are the Taelinri best represented by an existing character class,
    an entirely new character class, a prestige class or is it best
    represented by something like a series of feats and skill
    options? Is it something else entirely? Is it merely a title that
    should not be represented game mechanically at all?

  2. If it is a class or series of feats, are there any standard class
    features or feats that should appear in a class description? Are
    there any special abilities that should have new write ups?

  3. Are the Taelinri spellcasters?

  4. If the Taelinri are a character or prestige class, what skills
    should they have?

  5. Are there disadvantages to being a Taelinri that anyone can see?

I have my own answers to the questions above, but I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think. Any thoughts/ideas on this matter?

Gary

Though I used a class for taelinri before, (wizard class design, druid spell list, plus elemental spells) I wouldn’t want to ontologically comit to anything so close to 4th edition. I would prefer to remain open at this point and see what makes sense in May.

At 01:37 AM 1/24/2008, kgauck wrote:

>Though I used a class for taelinri before, (wizard class design,
>druid spell list, plus elemental spells)

A standard 1st level character class?

>I wouldn`t want to ontologically comit to anything so close to 4th
>edition. I would prefer to remain open at this point and see what
>makes sense in May.

I remain committedly uncommitted to anything inside or outside 3e, 4e
or D&D in general…

Gary

You know, I was never a big fan of the Sidhe in Birthright, but I
don`t remember hearing the word “Taelinri” before. What is a
Taelinri?

–
Daniel McSorley

In a message dated 1/24/2008 2:37:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
geeman@SOFTHOME.NET writes:

  1. Are the Taelinri best represented by an existing character class,
    an entirely new character class, a prestige class or is it best
    represented by something like a series of feats and skill
    options? Is it something else entirely? Is it merely a title that
    should not be represented game mechanically at all?
    I think if anything should be a prestige class, this should be it. Maybe an
    epic prestige class, though.

  2. If it is a class or series of feats, are there any standard class
    features or feats that should appear in a class description? Are
    there any special abilities that should have new write ups?

  3. Are the Taelinri spellcasters?
    Can be.

  4. If the Taelinri are a character or prestige class, what skills
    should they have?

  5. Are there disadvantages to being a Taelinri that anyone can see?

Maybe that they have to stand outside the politics of Houses, give up their
affiliations and so forth. That may not seem to be a disadvantage to many.

Lee.

PS of Tuarhievel pg 19-20.

Basically they are “teachers” and “councillors”.

With a role a lot like the druids of the Rjurik, IMO.

The Book of Magecraft has some things to say about Taelinri as well, (pg 6 or so) and they seem to be wizards.

For me, elves are not wizards or druids, their spellcasters are Taelinri. Not all members of the Taelinri character class perform all of the functions of the Taelinri social class, but that’s true for nobles, clerics, and other character classes that overlap with social groups. So I just merged (is mash-up more current?) wizards and druids, by keeping all of the class design (features, hit dice, skill list) of wizards, and then changing the spell list to be the druid spell list, plus almost anything with an elemental descriptor. After that there were a few tweaks left, like changing the familiar to an animal companion, adding the nature skills to the Taelinri skill list, but basically its a 20 level standard class (the only spellcasting class other than bard for elves) just like wizard.

I am prone to changing how spells work while leaving the base mechanics alone, so I prefer for elves to favor enchantment, illusion, and summoning (while humans are more enchantment, illusion, and divination). The BoM says elves don’t like summoning because of free will issues, so I just change how elf summonings work from being a compulsion to an alarm sent out to allies and friends from among the animals summoned.

I look back on my 3.0 conversion and was really more like a 2.5 edition, a lot of what I was
doing was thinking in 2.0 and expressing myself in 3.0. Part of this was because my source material was 2.0 and my game system was 3.0, but part was I had developed so many ideas in 2.0 that I didn’t want to part with yet. Later I would find 3.5 ways to get to the same end without old school mechanics. The only thing I really have left over from 2.0 now, is that every priesthood still gets its own class. Clerical domains and feat selection doesn’t quite get me the difference I found so appealing in 2.0 between priesthoods. Although, if I were to write this all from scratch today, I’d go PHB II and call them class variants, and who would know?

I felt that 3.0 was much better than 2.0 and that 3.5 was so much better still, I was able to abandon almost all home rules for brown book variants (I think only my own AC system remains). Now as I list to wizards podcasts and read the boards and get my sense of 4.0 I think its even closer to how I play the game than 3.5, so I’m going into 4.0 with anticipation, not reservation.

I thought this fitted better in this thread:

No, you got me wrong here I believe. The bard dabbles in a number of fields, but he is not a master in a particular field. In this regard, a Taelinir is the opposite of the bard. In my view, each Taelinir is regarded as a specialized master in a particular field, but each Taelinir can specialize in a different field. An elf might be an outstanding farmer and this would qualify him to become a Taelinir, as the elves would regard his knowledge and expertise as equally worthy of admiration as the knowledge of a master wizard or the skill of a master swordsman.
For this reason, there should be different paths available for becoming a Taelinir.
A prestige class for the farmer taelinir should allow him to continue specializing in farming, perhaps via skill focus as a bonus feat, a number of druid spells like plant growth or control weather and so on. A prestige class like this wouldn’t be of much interest to a master swordsman, however, so the master swordsman needs a different prestige class I’d say.
However, both classes should still have some things in common - something like bardic knowledge would fit, abilities focused on teaching (though these might not be of that much interest to many players I guess), perhaps some cultural benefits - i.e. it’s unthinkable for a Sidhelien to hurt a Taelinir, Taelinri are always received warmly and can expect a place to sleep and something to eat everywhere, etc. In this regard, taelinri indeed have similarities to the bard class and many bard abilities would fit, but I’d see specialization and mastery in a particular class or profession as a prerequisite. Something similar to the Loremaster secrets would also be fitting.

Actually, the whole “master of none” regarding the bard is absolutely ridiculous: disregarding prestige classes (which break the mold by all means), what other class is so good at performing and can actually ensnare and “buff” other classes in such a manner? While it is true that clerics are excellent at it and wizards and druids are quite competent too, that’s the turf of the bard!

It’s true that bards can be quite adept at anything, but that’s because they dabble at anything - apart from their inspiring performancies. :slight_smile:

The Taelinri is much like that, by all means: caretakers, teachers, lorekeepers, wizards and witches (in the archaic sense of the words - wise men and women)… Call it whatever you like it, but, just as with the bard, the truth is that they may put some emphasis in an aspect other than their main focus, but they still have something that they are really good at.

Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?

Actually it says:

BoM pg 5

“Sidhelien wixards, as beings who command mebhaighl, hold positions of respect and influence in elf communities. They serve a role in society, just as taerlinri b[/b], philosophers, artists, political leaders, military commanders, and others do.”

They are primarily teachers, who can be wizards but do not have to be.

Looking at the second ed material I just can’t find anything sufficient to warrant a class (pr prestige class - or even a 2nd ed “kit”).

They seem like a combination of the Celtic (see Rjurik) bards and druids. Bards - keepers of the knowledge and druids - keepers (maintainers) of the culture.

As far as 3.5 classes go the expert is the closest fit with a lot of knowledge skills. Perhaps the lore master. But both seem to be a stretch. The taelinri are less of a class as they are a “role” or “position”. Something “earned” or “appointed”. Maybe a single feat that grants some sociel benefits (possibly bardic knowledge ?) but just not a whole lot more.

Not every “role” in a society has its own class.

To me bards aren’t quite it either.

Bards are masters of interaction (more so than any other class) but the taelinri do not strike me as being better at “interaction” than any other elf. They are respected for their knowledge and they are teachers and advisors (actually as I read it more like a councillor than an advisor).

I agree with this view, but I also think that every Taelinir should have a prior specialization - the knowledge he intends to pass on. In my view, Taelinir are a bit like 1e or 2e sages - every Taelinir teaches something different, and this is not only theoretical knowledge, but also practical experience. You’re focusing on the scholarly types of Taelinri, but there should also be Taelinri who teach combat techniques and warfare.

For scholarly Taelinri this sounds good and it might be a good start to work on prestige classes, but as already mentioned I believe that Taelinri prestige classes should be attainable for warriors and even commoners - with maybe a few bard requirements thrown in.

Just as irdeggman said, I also am against having a specific class (even a prestige class) for their role; that’s was just a suggestion on my part. It’s important to see the taelinri as a role, so I finally have to side with irdeggman.

I agree on two accounts: The amount of material on the Taelinri is brief, and there’s not much to work with, though the concept is intriguing, and - second - “role” is much more important than ‘class’.

Nevertheless, I found the idea of a Taelinri prestige class (or classes) too compelling to ignore. I may have come across more negative than I intended in my last post, but I really think that crossing the Fochlucan lyrist with the lorekeeper is a good start for a wizardly Taelinri.

IIRC, at least for FR there are a number of examples where an organization (though this is not really a fitting term for the Taelinri) offers several prestige classes, for instance I believe there are at least three harper classes (Harper scout, harper mage and harper paragon) and something similar could be done for the taelinri.

If we follow this road, this doesn’t mean that these would need to be developed all at once. I for one, would welcome a wizardly prestige class for the Taelinri, but probably won’t need a prestige class for a taelinri commoner any time soon, unless as an NPC.
However, we should give some thought to what these prestige classes have in common. This might be social benefits, maybe an aura of confidence and tranquillity, access to a number of spells or whatever. I also wouldn’t count out bard-like interaction skills.
In my view, teaching has a lot to do with interaction, and if you see the taelinri as teachers, these abilities might fit very well. For instance, a good teacher should be able to fascinate his students, so this might make a very fitting ability for every Taelinir.

Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit lost to me as a non-native speaker.

I think its a mistake to assume that a social role and a character class should be contiguous sets. I look at the noble class and the noble social role. The best way to portray a social role is role playing the character. Even so, sometimes you’re looking for mechanics to reflect something that isn’t already covered in an existing class. That’s why you can have a noble class and a noble social role that are not contiguous (though nearly all noble class characters should be noble in the social sense). A Taelinri class doesn’t have to be the be all and end all of the Taelinri social role. Any character played as a teacher, scholar, or philosopher might be a Taelinri.

I’m not keen on the Harper-Scout, Harper-Mage, Harper-Beautician, Harper-Blacksmith model of class design. When I ditched the paladin as a class (softly, if somone wants to play the class I won’t say no) what I replaced it with was the role of paladin and a set of Paladin feats. If your character has one level of priest and one level of fighter, you can attempt to get your character recognized by your faith as a paladin. Once a ritual is performed, you can purchase paladin abilities as feats. That way if you want a smiting fighter-priest who can call a warhorse, you can without having a class limit your build too much.

The best wizard models from literature make the wizard a learned person. I have seen cases made that Merlin was a wizard, a bard, and a druid. All make sense. Its hard to make wizards into characters who know anything at all. As a single class, all they can do is cast spells. Most sensible builds use a lot of their skill points for concentration. Their high Int scores allow for a lot of extra skills, but compared a smart bard, they don’t seem so learned. Most of my wizard builds today are multi-classed with the Scholar class from the Medieval Player’s Handbook.

It looks like 4e will use the same kind of ability paths that d20 modern used (or something similar) and I’d love to see wizards able to be as smart as bards (where the difference is specialization vs jack of all trades) and that’s where I’d be with the Taelinri. I make nobles out of noble classed characters, rogues, and fighters, priests, and wizards with a few levels of noble. If I were called upon to make a lot of Taelinri, I imagine I’d be making them out of my Taelinri class (wizard design, druid spell list), bards, and by mixing nobles and fighters with Taelinri and bard. Since I use a spell points system, getting wizard and bard levels to stack is no problem.

So even though I have a Taelinri class, you could expect me, given enough time, to create a bard/rogue and call him a Taelinri if he was a sneaky sidhe scholar.

A councillor is one who sits on a council. But I wonder if the meaing wasn’t of a counselor, which is one who advises. An adviser is also one who advises. (Advisor is an alternate spelling.) Both a counselor and an adviser can have the same definitions, although counselor has a longer dictionary entry referring to specialized uses (a lawyer can be called “counselor”).

The root word, counsel, means to advise, instruct, or give an opinion. Its latin root is based off of consulere, which means to seek advice.

The root word of advisor, advice, means an opinion or recommendation.

I don’t think there is much of a meaningful difference in the words. But an explanation of what the original author intended can be useful for the desired meaning and what he intended to leave out of Taelinri. This is especially true if he meant and advisor who doesn’t sit on councils.

At 05:42 PM 1/25/2008, Beruin wrote:

>Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an
>advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit
>lost to me as a non-native speaker.

Councilor does imply a more formal, titled person than does
advisor. As Kenneth noted, there`s the council seat thing, but
lawyers are often often call counsel or counselors. Councilors
attend meetings and decide policy. Advisor is more informal, and
also implies more of a teacher position than something governmental.

Of course, in practice the difference is often pretty gray and
overlapping… “On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment…”

Gary

No, that’s counSEL, not counCIL. It’s used there to mean lawyer, just as Kenneth said. I would counsel that permanent councils are too formal for the Sidhelien. Instead their leaders get advice from ad hoc discussions with whomever is suitably expert on any given topic, achieving the same effect without adversely affecting their chaotic ways.

If you want Taelinri to be a focus from any class as long a sufficient skill has been shown I’d suggest using a feat tree with a prerequisite of say 10 skill levels, or +10 BAB, or 10 spellcasting levels, etc to represent the skill necessary.

Although non-standard you could balance the feat tree between social advantages and disadvantages if you want chunky advantages - just think about what you actually see a Taelinri doing and what you think they should not be doing and shape the feats accordingly - that way you avoid the need for a different prestige class for each base class.

So say Taelinri I: +1 reactrion modifier on interactions with elves, free board and lodging from any elf/elf-friend, will not be physically harmed by any elf/elf-friend, must spend 1 hour a week advising an elf to retain feat benefit, Taelinri II, +2 reaction mod on all interaction with elves, can request 1 favour a month from an elf, cannot ignore an honest request for advice from an elf, etc.

At 06:46 AM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>“On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment…”
>
>No, thats counSEL, not counCIL. Its used there to mean lawyer,
>just as Kenneth said.

Quite right about the spelling of the word in that particular
sense. From the usage note in my dictionary:

“Council, counsel, and consul are never interchangeable, though their
meanings are related. Council and councilor refer principally to a
deliberative assembly (such as a city council or student council),
its work, and its membership. Counsel and counselor pertain chiefly
to advice and guidance in general and to a person (such as a lawyer
or camp counselor) who provides it.”

Not a particularly meaningful difference in kind…

Gary