What happens if the Gorgon becomes a God?

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
21

Only one question:

How will the word of Gorgon’s disappearance or ascension reach the populations living outside the Raesene-dominated lands?

I guess that somehow this would be possible for Sidhelien or Mages of the CoS to feel that something has changed in Kal Satharak. Let say the Sidhelien shall not break the news to outsiders. But will the CoS tell anything at all for, Anuire ridden of the Raesene’s threat may end swiftly engulfed in civil strife.

I thought for instance that somehow Anuire would never be quite sure of the Gorgon’s leave, however hints may be diffused through Mhoried or Kiergard or anyone else witnessing infighting between the various factions once united under the heavy thumb of the Black Prince?

22

Hmm, I can’t see many people contesting the Gorgon’s source holdings, and not many spies go in and out…

So probably by seeing the fall out from the internal struggle over the power vacuum, seeing goblins picking sides, etc.

Of course not everyone would believe it at first, a brave group of investigators would have to infiltrate Kal-Saitharak itself to be sure :slight_smile:

23

I don’t view the Chamberlain in any religious light. He’s a diviner, but that in no way makes him a religious pope-like figure in my eyes. I see him more as a benevolent “Denethor” of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Where the character of Denethor wanted power for himself, the Chamberlain truly is a steward of the Anuirean kingdom without a personal agenda (aside from finding the true ruler of the land.)

I am also not sure that marrying into the Chamberlain’s family would help anyone procure the throne. I see the Chamberlain’s line as separate from the Roele (or chosen ruling line,) and think it works best that way. I always saw the Dosiere line as means to “check and balance” the Emperor to a certain degree.

I am in agreement that ruling by council is a risky idea. It would make an interesting campaign in that the rulers of the council can be tempted and treated as our modern day senators (where lobbyists attempt to further their own goals.) To me, this opens up too many opportunities for corruption, thus taking the council away from its primary goal–to protect and serve the people, to lead the people, to rule wisely. Again, maybe it could work, but seeing how most D&D groups have some level of internal strife between characters as it is, who is to say that anything at all will get accomplished if they can’t agree?

As for the Gorgon becoming a god, well . . . he’s had hundreds of years to prepare. Perhaps once a bloodline reaches a certain point, the vessel (mortal body) is unable to hold the power within and he ascends. He is, after all, quite the stealer of bloodpoints. =)

24

If there is anything useful about a connection to the Chamberlain its his fine bloodline, and a marriage there can only enhance your dynasty.

25

The Idea of “Rome” and the “Empire” still resonated in Europe hundreds of years after its fall. The dark ages were such a horrible and lawless, bloody time that the Idea of the Empire came to symbolize a near mythic place an Idea that Charlemagne was able to seize upon.

The Anuirean empire despite its technolgy edge over the “Dark Ages” of Europe is in the throws of its own 500+ year “Dark Age”.

Under such circumstances the Idea of the Empire and its fabled Golden Age and the Chamberlain that represents the last vestages of the good times, may have more power than can easily be quantified.

Add in the rumors of the Chamberlains Immortality (True or not) and the connection to the Empire of old is even more pronounced in the minds of Anuireans.

26

A people would have to be remarkably romantic in their political notions to prefer a perpetual civil war (which is the description, more or less, of Anuire in Ruins of Empire) to someone that isn’t a bona fide decendent of the Imperial dynasty, or doesn’t match the apparently impossible requirements of the Chancellor, who hasn’t found a suitable candidate in five centuries.

The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene war on his hands.

27

In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position, human nature being what it is and all that.

As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is another game device to prolong the games enviroment.

In a prior incarnation of the setting I once ran a Chancellor who was in fact an agent of the Gorgon. Sadly this game did not last long enough for the players to discover it, but it made for at least one very interesting Sword and Crown..

28

At 06:20 PM 5/9/2007, Dcolby wrote:

>>The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five
>>centuries of intercene war on his hands.
>
>In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that
>in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who
>supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already
>done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position,
>human nature being what it is and all that.
>
>As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the
>struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is
>another game device to prolong the games enviroment.

The Chamberlain is most likely a loose homage (like a lot of BR) to
Tolkiens character Denathor, Steward of Gondor. As such his (or his familys) control of the IC is extended for thematic purposes. The
Stewards of Gondor remained in power for 25 generations, about 1,000
years, which might give us some idea of how the BR setting might go…

Speaking of Tolkien and what might happen if the Gorgon ascends,
consider this: Imagine that Sauron gets his ring back at the end of
RotK. Cerilia might look a lot like Middle Earth in such a scenario…

Gary

29

I know that you’re a Chamberlain hater, Kgauck, but is it possible that he has deliberately not chosen a candidate to keep Anuire strong? The candidates vie against each other, but generally do it quietly or politically, without recourse to open warfare. What would happen if he chose? Maybe there would be war, maybe not.

Then again, the Chamberlain is in a “damned if you, damned if you don’t” situation, so he can’t win from an impartial point of view.

30

I suppose it depends on Chamberlain in question; from long before Traederic on the fields of Deismaar, to Aedan seeing last Emperor slain by the Gorgon, to Caliedhe, the current and in a way only a symbolic Imperial Chamberlain. As I see it, there were rather active Chamberlains in past, that were very motivated in searching for a next Emperor. It would be a great honour and privilege to be marked in history books as the one who started the re-unification of the Empire. Probably there were even Chamberlains that chose sides in Anuirean political theatre, or even made some bad choices. I mean Dosiere are powerful and old house, but they are humans afterall.

So I just assumed that Caliedhe Dosiere (fourty-seventh Imperial Chamberlain) is reserved, and unambitious; more interested in past then present. He is honourable and responsable, so he is extra careful of what he says and/or do. Maybe even fearfull, not wanting to to be a part of some unfortunate event that would add to rather dark Anuirean history.

31

It is mentioned that the Chamberlain has the Long Life (Greater) blood ability and thus has only aged 15 years since Deismaar. The rest of Anuire may think it’s been different men all these centuries, but the rules would indicate differently :slight_smile:

32

Well in Ruins of Empire (TSR AD&D Birthright) Caliedhe Dosiere doesn’t have Long Life blood ability at all. It is a wild rumour that he and his ancestors are the same person, and that he (Traederic Dosiere) was granted immortality on the fields of Deismaar. But thats just it…

From Ruins of Empire (TSR AD&D Birthright):

Caliedhe Dosiere
Bloodline: Anduiras, great, 64
Blood Abilities: Resistance (major), Detect Lie (minor), Divine Aura (major), Enhanced Sense (major).

…

33

In Iron Throne novel Aedan Dosiere once manifested Regeneration (?) blood ability, but seeing Caliedhe’s info and the lack of mentioned blood ability, one could conclude that it wasn’t a hereditary blood ability, or even that Regeneration manifestation was an isolated event.

34

Then again, the BR NPCs are infamous for only presenting rules for characters as they are seen in-game. This is notably why none of them are presented with alignments.

35

On 5/9/07, kgauck <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> A people would have to be remarkably romantic in their political notions to prefer a
> perpetual civil war (which is the description, more or less, of Anuire in Ruins of Empire) to
> someone that isnt a bona fide decendent of the Imperial dynasty, or doesnt match the
> apparently impossible requirements of the Chancellor, who hasn`t found a suitable

candidate in five centuries.

The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene
war on his hands.

I know I`ve seen this view from you before, Kenneth.

I think the problem is that the elapsed-time gap between the last
emperor and the campaign setting “present” was a gameplay conceit.
Yes, someone in the stewardship position of the Chancellor would have
helped someone claim the throne within a few decades (at most) of
civil war. This wasn`t done so, and lots of time was allowed to pass,
so that family lines would have time to mingle and potentially anyone
could win the throne, including your PC who started out as the baron
of a small holding.

In the realistic case you`re left with two options:
1 Set the game immediately after the vacancy, before anyone has won the throne.
2 Set the game later after the vacancy, after someone has won the throne.

2 is terrible for gameability- you cant win a throne that is already properly occupied, not if youre the good guy. 1 is problematic,
because in the time immediately following the vacancy, there would
probably be a clearly “right” heir, based on whatever rules of
precedence the setting had, and the game becomes about supporting or
opposing the proper heir.

Five centuries was probably too long to set between the vacancy and
the “present”. But probably at least a hundred years was needed to
allow the initial political setup the designers wanted, where there
were lots of small kingdoms and anyone could potentially win the
throne. The chamberlain is still around, but ineffective, so that he
can be present at the coronation of the PCs and pronounce it good. As
someone else mentioned, he`s something of a tolkienesque figure, too.

How would you have instead designed the initial setup, Kenneth? Do
away with the chamberlain entirely? Set the game immediately after
the vacancy?

–
Daniel McSorley

36

Dcolby schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3729
> Dcolby wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene war on his hands.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position, human nature being what it is and all that.
>
> As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is another game device to prolong the games enviroment.
>
> In a prior incarnation of the setting I once ran a Chancellor who was in fact an agent of the Gorgon. Sadly this game did not last long enough for the players to discover it, but it made for at least one very interesting Sword and Crown..
In the real world existed similar situations. I think for example of the
Interregnum after the excommunication and later death of the last
Staufer Emperor and the time until a Habsburg became emperor of the Holy
Roman Empire of German Nation..
And this interregnum was in the real world where no additional
requirement of a bloodline existed to become the emperor - such a
requirement, several contenders each equally powerful and a Chamberlain
who sees all contenders as unworthy of the throne because he knows they
would cause more harm than no emperor - that all can prolong an interregnum.

But criminal? In the HRE were skirmishes and border conflicts between
members of the empire common - even in times were an emperor was ruling.

37

I think the Central point here is whether or not you feel or think that the Chamberlain has the power to make/enforce policy and succession. If in say Kguacks’ version of Cerilia or the version I once ran he does have that sort of sway then his inaction may be unpardonable.

Most versions including my current, seem to present the chamberlain as a hold over from the old Empire trying his best to keep the “Idea” of the Empire, its law, order, & symbology alive to be reborn from the ashes.

All in all a matter of how you want to tell the story I should think..:slight_smile:

38

From a simple self-preservation point of view, if the Chamberlain actually tipped his hand and showed his power, he’d become Anuire’s assassination central overnight. Also, if he decided in favour of one candidate, the other three would more than likely launch an assault on the Imperial City itself to force a different decision.

39

Yeah that nasty I don’t want to eat poison thing sure can interfere with doing whats right :wink:

40

In my games the chamberlain dont have any real power outside the walls of the imperial city, and even in theory he can appoint a new emperor, in fact if he ever does so, there will be a large scale war, because, without the support of almost all the regents, there will never be a new emperor.

The main difference from BR and Roman empire, in this case in particular, i believe is the loyalty of the army. In the days of Michael Roele, i believe that the Imperial armies, were in fact, almost all of them, armies of the individual regents, drafted in ocasional conflicts.

If there were imperial legions, when MR was slayn, that who could controll the legions, would control the empire. Much like in Rome, when an emperor died without a clear successor (This happened many times)

So, the chamberlain, dont control any armies, and therefore dont have any real power. He is well respected yes, but not really powerfull