Based on the strong difference of opinions on this one - lets start a poll.
One thing to keep in mind is to not confuse the language equivalent with the cultural one. It is obvious that the Brecht language is closest to the Germanic ones, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the culture is.
IMO we also want to keep it relatively simple and not have to resort to historical equivalents that only history majors and those who frequently watch the History channel will know.
I’ve always thought of the Brecht as a mixture of Hanseatic German and Renaissance Spain and Italy. The linguistic and base culture seems Germanic, but the individualism, martial styles (lightweight, fencing) seems strongly Italian and Spanish. And the mercantile aspect works well with all of these.
There’s no need to point to one single culture and say “the Brechts are like these people.” This is a fantasy world. Let the Brechts be their own people, and cite a few major sources of inspiration for their culture.
Osprey
I also tend to believe the Brechts are based upon the Hanseatic League, with a Renaissance flair. The styles of fighting are certainly of the Renaissance period. The Hanse were pretty much merchantile city-states, so the Brechts fit this perfectly. I say the similarities to Spain and Italy are coincidental, since the Hanse style was first, and then the others picked it up (or developed it independently) at a later date.
Now reference to Hanseatic German is one of those things that requires more than a casual knowledge of history - which is why I mentioned that earlier.
If the votes come out close then I’ll just combine them {saying they are an amalgam), otherwise the possible combinations become mind boggling.
My biggest reasoning for choosing the Hanseatic states of Germany is rooted in two things: First and foremost, the Hanse, while it was a loose coallition of city-states, the powers of these cities were very limited, and the majority of the power was in the hands of the merchants. If one city refused to play, it would be ‘excluded’, and would get poorer and poorer as trade passed it by. The Brecht League doesn’t have absolute power in the hands of the landed nobility, as happens in Anuire, or the Khinasi lands. They have to work with the guilders to prosper.
The second reason is that the Hanseatic League has popped up in another game that is generally played by a number of people, and would therefore be familiar to them, as it is faithfully transplanted into a Sci-Fi setting. Yes, the Hanse are in the Battletech game as ship- based Periphery Traders who ‘control’ the worlds they trade with.
I feel that they have a strong germanic influence, yet I will have to agree with Osprey in regard to the fencing fighting style they use, which is certainly non-german.
I can actually address this one from a historical re-enactor’s perspective.
Fencing got its start in Italy, during the Italian Ren period, then spread to Spain, and from those two locii began their northward spread. By the early 1560s, fencing was firmly established in France and the Low Countries, and withoin 20 years, there were distictive 'home-grown’styles being taught in England. It is not a far stretch to see the Baltic (notably the Hanse) using the ‘arte of the dance’ by that time as well.
Spain is not the only fencing region in history. In a comparison, the further north one got, the dirtier the fighting style, whereas in Spain, you had those who wouldn’t think of using the basket hilt to rap a skull, punching or even trippping the opponent because it would be ‘ungentlemanly’.
In light of keeping it easy on those who have a less than perfect knowledge of history (like me), I voted the Dutch. The Dutch were the typical seafaring traders, and their language is somewhat similar to German as well. That Hanseatic state-thing sounds better, but I didn’t even know of them until I read this thread.
As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don’t wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you’ll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht 
I voted for the Dutch as I see Germany as a two broad a comparison when it is really just the Hanseatic League that strikes me as a close parallel. The rest of germany, and especially the Holy Roman Empire, seems closer to Anuire IMO.
As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don’t wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you’ll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht
I think fighting style, armor preferences, etc. are important because they form a strong visual impression, especially for adventuring types (and thus PC character concepts and depictions). The Brecht don’t just prefer light weapons and armor; they’re famous for it. It’s one of their most distinctive cultural trademarks I’d say.
Yes, it is a problem to mix Germanic and Italians and Dutch and Spanish cultures together, but after the reams of discussion and disagreement on the issue, it seems to me that this is exactly what happened when the Brecht were designed, though perhaps not by intention. Rather, I think Baker and Co. said “Germanic seafaring peoples, but heavily influenced by classic Renaissance stuff like fencing, poofy clothes, art, drama, etc.” Brecht Renaissance playboys.
Don E schrieb:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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>
> Don E wrote:
> I voted for the Dutch as I see Germany as a two broad a comparison when it is really just the Hanseatic League that strikes me as a close parallel. The rest of germany, and especially the Holy Roman Empire, seems closer to Anuire IMO.
>
Don´t forget that the Netherlands were itself part of that empire for
quite a time until Alba failed to quell that rebellion 
bye
Michael
if i remember right it was based on german AND Holland arrond approx 1600.
Especially on the VOC (united east-indian company) where merchants ruled the seas and were responsible for the well fare.
Arjan
Various European societies have been suggested to describe the Brecht for
quite a while… I wonder if it might make sense to draw a distinction
when it comes to the culture and outlook of the Brecht. That is, I think
the comparisons to some of the Italian or other southern European
cultures/periods are apt, but it seems that those comparisons are apt when
viewed from a more economic standpoint rather than cultural one. Of
course, economics have a significant influence upon culture, and in some
ways economics and culture overlap or interact, but what I see as the most
likely comparison to certain non-Germanic society is really more of a
philosophical outlook regarding industry and commerce, or a generalized
emphasis upon trade, rather than a culture per se.
If one were to remove the economic and trade orientation of several of the
cultures that have been used to describe the Brecht, and just consider the
cultures themselves does it still work as well?
Gary
There is a lot of support behind the dutch and germans ie the hensiatic league who the brechts were based upon according to the atlas. I dont think that italy or spain are nearly as close a match as the league. One of the arguments people make for italy or spain is the style of fighting but at the time of the league that style was widespread in britain, germany and beyond. Fighting with lighter weapons is favoured when armour is not used ie on boats or when weapons make armour a liability.
I come from an island in the north sea that was controlled by the hensiatic league showing the strength of their trade around the north. More than a thousand boats used to come to the island each year now thats a merchant fleet.
The culture and balance of the brechts seams to me as very hensiatic which I don’t find surpising as they were based on the league by the original designers.
Fighting with lighter weapons is favoured when armour is not used ie on boats or when weapons make armour a liability.
Except that in Europe firearms were more responsible for making armor obsoletethan any other weapon,and firearms are noticably absent from the Birthright world.
On the other hand, a culture based around seafaring is a much better argument for the Brechts favoring light armor and weapons. Seems odd that they wouldn’t be better archers, though…
Osprey
Another thought has occured to me: it shouldn’t take a history major to know something about the Hanseatic League. They were a massively extensive and powerful group in northern Europe (most of northern Europe at their peak). This should only need a basic student of European history, and failing that, maybe we’ll inspire a few people to go read about the Hanseatic League after reading that the Brechts were based upon them.
I know a little about the hensiatic league as I said the island I grew up on was once contolled by it. I have read books and my cousin did some research on it during his history degree. They are very similar to the brechts.
The brecht don’t need archery they have crossbows much more effective and usefull on the type of ships they use.
Originally posted by geeman@Jun 25 2004, 06:50 PM
[b]
If one were to remove the economic and trade orientation of several of the
cultures that have been used to describe the Brecht, and just consider the
cultures themselves does it still work as well?
Gary
[/b]
Removing the trade aspects of Brecht culture? You are not serious are you? I mean that is what the culture revolves around and is the single most core function of it. They are sea faring race becasue of their desire to trade not because of exploration or conquest (the other two reasons a culture develops sea travel).
Originally posted by Osprey@Jun 25 2004, 10:46 PM
Another thought has occured to me: it shouldn’t take a history major to know something about the Hanseatic League. They were a massively extensive and powerful group in northern Europe (most of northern Europe at their peak). This should only need a basic student of European history, and failing that, maybe we’ll inspire a few people to go read about the Hanseatic League after reading that the Brechts were based upon them.
I have to again caution on using what the average person doesn’t know as the basis for choosing the Hanseatic league. Here are 2 posts that reflect the same knowledge level as I have of them. Basically we hadn’t heard of them until they were brought up on these boards. When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don’t think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures. Since we are dealing with stereo types in the first place and trying to give an idea of a culture based on a sound bite sized description it is rather a stretch to go this path, IMO.
Remember we also want to attract more people to BR and if we insert something that causes more confusion than explanation or requires people to do some supplemental reading, this becomes counter productive. I abstained on this vote because I’m not as passionate as others on this subject and I can always insert ‘my take’ to my players during introduction of the game.
[b]Regardless of how many reams of paper support the ideas, the issue at hand is that we’re dealing with stereotypes if we’re going to reduce cultural comparisons to one sentence. The number of trading consulates maintained by Aragon in the Rennaissance is not generally well known, thanks to games like Civilzation and countless others you say Dutch, they think seafaring traders. Similarly, you say Spain and people think of Cortez, or El Cid, or Galleons (which Anuire has, not the Brecht), or the inquisition. If you say Ancient Egyptian people think of bare-chested Pharaohs with linen-skirts and a very tall headdress/crown (and an ankh). If you say Arabs, or Arabian Nights on the other hand, people will bring the mental imagery that is supported by the artwork in Cities of the Sun and elsewhere.
For people who don’t have the time to do intensive comparitive historical research, the one sentence approach needs to be used. After all, thats how the Campaign was designed. Have a look at Rich Baker’s original forward in the original Atlas of Cerilia. Second paragraph. Second sentence. As soon as you read that sentence you should know exactly what two human groups he’s refering to. Our cultural equivalents need to be the same way: as soon as you read it you need to know what we’re talking about.
Bearcat[/b]
[b]In light of keeping it easy on those who have a less than perfect knowledge of history (like me), I voted the Dutch. The Dutch were the typical seafaring traders, and their language is somewhat similar to German as well. That Hanseatic state-thing sounds better, but I didn’t even know of them until I read this thread.
As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don’t wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you’ll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht
- Azulthar [/b]
At 12:38 PM 6/26/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:
> Removing the trade aspects of Brecht culture? You are not serious are
> you? I mean that is what the culture revolves around and is the single
> most core function of it. They are sea faring race becasue of their
> desire to trade not because of exploration or conquest (the other two
> reasons a culture develops sea travel).
No, no. Don`t remove the trade aspect of the Brecht. Remove the trade
aspects of the cultures being described as the basis of Brecht
culture. Are they still as apt in describing them? It`s a thought
experiment for the purpose of determining what the actual social/cultural
basis for the BR race is, not at attempt to redefine that race.
Trade and commerce based on seafaring is definitively Brecht, but it is not
necessarily definitively Spanish or Italian (or Dutch, for that matter,
really.) Spanish and Italian cultures “look Brecht” if one views them in
the period in which they were sea powers, and heavily reliant upon their
colonial empires. However, if one removes that aspect of their culture I
don`t think the Brecht have very much in common with them.
Fighting styles are also a commonality to a certain extent, but as has been
pointed out the lighter weapons and lack of armor that the Brecht use is
something of an anachronistic interpretation since that was more directly
related to gunpowder than it is to being a seafaring culture.
Gary