We had discussed it previously. Now it’s time to vote for it.
Should there any of the new 3. Edition races be included?
Should the Gnome be included?
What about Half Dragon, Genasi, Half Celestial, Half Gennie, some new races of Savage species?
I don’t think that the Birthright flair is changed if some of the new races are included, it gives the game some new possibilities and motivations. Each DM can restrict the number of new races.
I disagree with it being time to “vote” on this. IMO we should wait to see what ends up in the 3.5 version before going crazy with this. Also, it should be up to the DM to introduce any non-standard races. Leave it to Doom to call for the vote, he’s the editor and it should be his decision as to when the “discussion” has reached an end.
Originally posted by irdeggman
Leave it to Doom to call for the vote
So why do we discuss anyway?
From: “Azrai” <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
> We had discussed it previously. Now it`s time to vote for it.
>
> Should there any of the new 3. Edition races be included?
>
> Should the Gnome be included?
>
> What about Half Dragon, Genasi, Half Celestial, Half Gennie, some new
races of Savage species?
>
No to gnome, genasi and their ilk. And no to monks while at it.
Yes to goblin, greater goblin (aka hobgoblin), oruk, ogre and possibly
lizardfolk.
Yes to ECL.
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Azrai - I did not say “no” to a vote. You seem to imply that I’m against any type of polling system. All I said was that IMO it was not time for a vote and that the chapter editor (Doom in this case) should make the call when he/she feels the discussion has reached an end. Not everything will be called up for a vote individually, several things will probably be “decided” just based on the “tone” of the discussions. If we have polls on every thing popping up that is discussed then nothing will ever get accomplished.
The intent is to have some sort of final vote for the whole thing once most of the issues have been addressed. There will of course be revisions posted based on feedback for additional discussions prior to this “final” vote.
Note as per my other posts that I don’t think enough people have given feedback to come to some kind of concensus on much of anything, 1000-2500 downloads and maybe 20 people commenting.
Whenever a poll is conducted there should be some “guidelines” established. Should it be a simple majority, twice as many for as against, etc. How do we handle thos on the mailing list who don’t use the birtright.net posts and hence can’t “place” a vote, how do we make sure for those who don’t use the poll that they don’t “stuff the ballots” because if they aren’t using the polling system they can send in many e-mail votes.
Before going straight to a vote things need to be decided on how to proceed.
At 12:04 PM 2/26/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:
>Should there any of the new 3. Edition races be included?
>
>Should the Gnome be included?
>
>What about Half Dragon, Genasi, Half Celestial, Half Gennie, some new
>races of Savage species?
I vote no for all of the above (in fact, if I can pull the lever more than
once for “no” on gnomes, please assume I stand there all day doing so to
make sure there are no hanging, pregnant or otherwise ambiguously punched
chads.) If someone really feels compelled to put in gnomes and other
non-standard BR races I personally would appreciate it being in an appendix
so I don`t have to bother ripping those pages out of the middle someplace,
destroying the continuity of the document.
I would include those entries in SS that already are noted in the original
materials, but not any new ones. I got a gander at this book last weekend
BTW and found it very interesting. Given the way it presented “monster
classes” it makes one wonder of what use the template system will be in the
future. Some variant of that system could be very useful for portraying
awn- and ersheghlien, not to mention the occasional blooded character of
monstrous proportions or decent.
Gary
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Originally posted by irdeggman
The intent is to have some sort of final vote for the whole thing once most of the issues have been addressed. There will of course be revisions posted based on feedback for additional discussions prior to this “final” vote.
This was not meant as some “final” voting. Just to sum up the previous discussion and to give a first overview. I thought this could be helpful.
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Azrai wrote:
> This was not meant as some “final” voting. Just to sum up the
> previous discussion and to give a first overview. I thought this could
> be helpful.
t. The even dozen of us discussing the matter arent enough toCommunication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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Yes to new races, even half-dragon or genasi. This will give Birthright a new color…
Ariadne wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1386
>
> Ariadne wrote:
> Yes to new races, even half-dragon or genasi. This will give Birthright a new color…
>
Does it need new colour? 
A half-dragon requires a dragon to breed with some non-dragon. With
barely a dozen dragons in the whole of Cerilia and as far as I know all
of them sleeping for decades at a time and when not being reclusive in
remote areas like the Five Peaks and Drachenward?
How should they create off-spring in sufficient numbers to justify the
addition of the “half-dragon” as a race in Birthright?
The one or two half-dragons that exist (Ohlaak in Rjurik could be one)
would be an odditiy, an abomination, but not a whole race.
I do not know what Genasi are, could someone enlighten me?
Gnomes are a delicate matter - some seem to feel an irrational hatred
towards these small fellows…
I know that in the old 2E Birthright material -somewhere, I don´t
remember now where- gnomes where mentioned.
However there is no gnomish realm, which leads me to the conclusion that
gnomes are even rarer than halflings.
Perhaps Gnomes should not be added as another race, but as a sub-race of
halflings or dwarves, just like goblinoids are a big family of
goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears?
bye
Michael Romes
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The “only” place gnomes were mentioned in the 2nd ed material was as an entry in the monster table in the rulebook. Gnomish languages weren’t mentioned along with the other potential languages and there was no mention of them as player races. I have always chalked up the errant entry in the monster table as another one of the “many” editorial errors in the product. There were never any gnomes mentioned in any other Birthright product or adventure. If they exist in Cerilia (all of the products revolve only around Cerilia anyways) many “issues” develop. Where do they live? Are they subteranean or forest gnomes. If they are subteranean then how come they haven’t allied with their dwarven cousins against the Orogs? If they are forest gnomes then the same could be said about the elves and humans.
Where were the gnome deities during Deismaar? How about before? Even the Orog and Goblin deities were mentioned in the rulebook.
There are just too many issues revolving around this for inclusion in any “core” material. Especially using the one entry source.
I would just assume that any nonstandard race comes from Aduria or the lands beyond the Dragon sea. Allow the character, but they would be a lone oddity.
For the record, I voted “no” to new races, but that is mainly an objection to “non-Cerilian” races like the Gensai or Gnomes. I am in favor of races that already have a place in the setting (Orogs, Goblins, Gnolls, etc.) getting PHB-like entries. I probably won’t use them, but it’s good to give options.
Hey all…
When we talk about gnomes, are we conidering 2nd Ed gnomes, converted to 3e? Or are we talking about the gnomes as presented in the 3e PHB? They’re quite different. I could see 2nd Ed gnomes as an offshoot of dwarves, but the 3e PHB gnomes don’t seem to have the right flavor for Birthright, imo.
-Fizz
It really shouldn’t matter what version of gnomes that is being talked about. 3rd ed elves are much different than 2nd ed as are the other demi-human races.
In 2nd ed there were gnomes in the PHB as a player race, they weren’t recognized as such in the 2nd ed BRRB. Again, the “only” mention of gnomes in 2nd ed Birthright was the single entry on the monster table in the rulebook, no mention of them under the language section (which included several monster languages) nor an appearance in any “official” Birthright product.
> 3rd ed elves are much different than 2nd ed as are the other demi-human races.
I agree. And IF gnomes are allowed as a PC race, they can tweaked accordingly. I’m just saying they should be more like 2nd Ed gnomes (cousins of dwarves), and not like the gnomes in the 3E PHB.
-Fizz
Ok, let’s go back to the source.
In the process of gathering source material for the BRCS, I found and read every post I could be Rich Baker on the mailing list - most of these are several years old, predating even my knowledge of what a mailing list was. In any case, Rich stated that he’d intended to write a unique and different niche for gnomes in BR - as a sort of “nature spirit” thing - with forest gnomes, mountain gnomes, meadow gnomes - whatever. I.e. a more “feyish” type of gnome. As I recall, in the same post, he also stated that this never made it to the final version, for various reasons, so gnomes should generally be considered extremely rare or non-existent. They did show up on the list of permissible monsters, but the important thing was that they were not among the playable PC races.
Gnomes -> out.
All outsider type characters -> WAY out.
Half-dragons -> out.
The possible candidates for additional playable PC races would be goblins, orogs, and gnolls - probably in that order. Playing these races changes the flavor of the setting a fair bit, though - or has the potential to do so. I think part of the flavor of BR is the “tolkienisticness” of the races - making it an “equal opportunities” campaign for all the humanoid races would seem to be more of a kick-down on the race flavor, than anything - it would essentially reduce the races to humans with rubber masks and some different abilities, instead of having the races be and feel truly different. Making everything equally viable as a PC distorts the essential flavor of BR a bit, I think.
Of course, I can easily see some of the humanoids incorporated as playable races - if there is a wide enough consensus for it, and if it is possible to come up with cool mechanical benefits for the races, so they don’t look like this: “+2 dex, -2 str, darkvision - gl and hf.”
[b]Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Half-dragons -> out.
."[/b]
I agree with you Mark_Aurel, but in a way half-dragon can exists on Cerillia but not as a playable race. The GM can, however, use them in some sort of plot device as I’ve done in recent years. For example, the Eyeless One, in my game, had formed a special relationship with an evil dragon named Fwyllnnwr (FEY-lan-ou-IR) as it was his creation wheent the dragon took human form centuries ago and slept with a noble lady from Boeruine… As an Half-Dragon, the Eyeless One produced himself four other of his kind and made them his bodyguards. So, only five of them exist as NPCs and nothing more.
My advice is: DO NOT kill the feel of BR and if you want to add something that is not cannon, use it as a plot device not as a recurrent and common occurence.
Count Demeter
I might allow half-dragons as PC on a unique basis. Generally, I think Cerilian dragons are different enough from other dragons that they don’t go around kidnapping virgins or shapeshifting and knocking girls up a whole lot - or do anything else that would produce the classic half-dragons. I could see one being created as a unique creature, but I would never ever make it an official standard option for PCs. If DMs want to allow it to players, fine. I do feel obligated to maintain the status quo and flavor of BR enough that things like this does not make it into the official rules set, though. It just doesn’t fit as a standard option - standard options should be selectable right from the book, with DMs not having to adjust too much to make it work. Even regular elves and dwarves can be a bit of a hassle in BR, depending on how it is handled - and half-dragons are way out compared to that.
> In any case, Rich stated that he’d intended to write a unique and different niche for gnomes in BR - as a sort of “nature spirit” thing - with forest gnomes, mountain gnomes, meadow gnomes - whatever. I.e. a more “feyish” type of gnome.
That’s really interesting. Maybe Rick would like them `restored’? 
I think goblins would be a perfectly acceptable addition as a PC race. They’re sufficiently common across the entire continent, and can be just as civil or hostile as neighboring humans. I don’t think they’d have extensive special abilities, but that’s ok.
I don’t think orogs and gnolls work as PC races. Maybe in a few cases, but not as a general rule.
I agree that half-dragons and half-celestials are right out. Sure, in an individual circumstance someone might play one. But if exceptions are made for that, then exceptions should be made for every conceivable one-time race. The official document should only include those races that are readily and always available as a PC race.
-Fizz