For awhile now I have been running a campaign that started at 5th lvl.
And has progressed to a Epic Godling path of Ascension, using the Book of Immortals. It Started off as an all Elf campaign. Only 2 elves remain and the others are 2 Humans and 1 Dwarf. They are close to the end of their path and I would like to ask some opinions and questions.
When the current gods ascended (ones at Mt Desimar) I have always asumed that the reason they ascended to the Lvl of Greater gods was because of the release of all the old gods blood. And the one that ascended after that went straight to lesser gods was acounted for because they wear blodded people. Any way they skipped Demi god status. If this is so them how would my people ascended? One comes from a True Bloodline and all the others have maxed their blood long ago. When they ascended will they skip Demi-god status? And if so by how much?
Falamar,
I think you misunderstood how the New gods came to be slightly. It wasn’t just because of the Release of the Gods energy. Those that Ascended were the ones that were closest to the Gods Philosophically. I think that the strength of Bloodlines was also not only about how physically close to the gods you were, but also how philosophically close you were to your own god. Obviously there is a Physical component because there are so many that received a bloodline from a god other than their patron.
The newer gods all tend to be the children of the new gods. So there isn’t really a precedent in BR for characters ascending.
That leaves the field wide open for you to do what you want. I really don’t enjoy god level campaigns, especially in a BR setting where challenges are more mundane. But if that’s what you enjoy go for it.
If I was to run that type of campaign, I would require that the characters have true bloodlines to ascend. This would represent Epic tasks the PC’s completed to make them beloved by the people (a pre-requisite for becoming a god IMO). They would also have to establish at least informal churches for themselves, I am not familiar with the book you are using, but in the old days Gods had 1 God HP per 100 worship points they had. Once they became sufficiently powerful enough, the Gods themselves would start testing them. If any God saw something they didn’t like, they would seek to kill them, and would of course succeed unless other gods liked them enough to intercede.
In BR the Gods have a pact to not interfere in Mortal matters, but when someone seeks to become a god, it’s no longer a Mortal matter.
I agree with the need for true bloodline in order to ascend.
In 2nd ed (and the BRCS) you cannot gain a true bloodline. (See Book of Regency in 2nd ed for how to increase ones bloodline strength {i.e., tainted to minor to major}. It specifically states under no circumstance can a scion increase their bloodline to true.
Also in 2nd ed the “present” gods are not all “greater gods” per 2nd ed terminology.
Haelyn, Erik, Avani, are the greater human deities.
Nesirie, Sera, Belinik are the intermediate deities and the rest are lesser.
The 3.0 book Deities and Demigods has infor on stolen and imparted divinity (pg 11) and deicide (pg 18) all of which might be useful to you.
Well, i don’t know what the book says, but i think a bloodline should be required in Birthright. It’s essential to the setting.
Without it, the whole point of having a bloodline is greatly diminished. If a non-blooded character can ultimately exceed the power of those who do have a bloodline, then, what’s the point of a bloodline in the first place?
Even the Gorgon, the most powerful creature on Cerilia, is no where close to ascending to godhood. How can a mere non-scion do so?
This is not true. It said in the book that the Gorgon choose not to ascend.
If you can’t grasp the concept of a group of lvl 30 godlings thats ok.
I am not asking permission.
I have 1 True bloodline an Elf that was around for Mt Desimar and 4 great Bloodline that have maxed their blood scores out. The truth of the matter is that anyone can ascend to godhood and these people are on that path.
They are no longer in Bloodspace atm for breaking the pack of no physical violence between the gods. And were Banished. They will not beable to return untill Demigod status is achieved.
My question is to the developers is wiether or not their bloodlines will change how they ascend. If I can’t get an answer other than “Don’t let them ascend” I will cont. on my own accord.
Not everyone likes hi powered games and most can’t comprehend letting anyone get as powerfull as the original bad guys but it happens.
Falamar, No one is telling you you can’t do what you want. This board isn’t a board for the developers to tell you what to do. Most of us here are not developers, just players and GM’s ourselves, and are trying to answer your question and give advice as best we can. What you do with that advice is up to you.
I really don’t care what the book you are basing their ascension on says. In the BRCS Bloodlines represent your Connection to the land, and closeness to the Godliness. This is why we have suggested that a True Bloodline should be required to Ascend. This has nothing to do with the book your following, your book was not written to be specific to every campaign. If they had written it specifically for BRCS, then they would likely agree. In BR, True Bloodlines should be a pre-requisite for Ascension.
Now, the rules say you shouldn’t allow a PC to increase their Bloodline more than once a lifetime, and PC’s should never be allowed to have/gain true Bloodlines. You already broke that rule. For your game, since the goal is to have them ascend, I would ignore that Rule, and just make it a very difficult thing to achieve. Consider it an adventure hook, how to gain a true Bloodline.
This is all a suggestion, and is not written by the developers, or Official. However, I think most here, including the developers, would agree that IF they were to allow PC’s to Ascend, then a True Bloodline would be a pre-requisite.
You say that it is said that pc’s shouldn’t be allowed to raise thier bloodlines but once. Then please explain the bloodseeker class that is all about usrption and raising one blood score. Or explain why it is that once the true bloodline has disappeared that bloodspace will never again have anyone ascend?
I am here for opinions and sugestions. But not here for people to tell me that I can’t do what has been done.
Raising ones Bloodscore, and raising your Blood strength are completely separate. There is no limit in the rules to how much you can raise your BloodScore. Although, by the 3E rules, the higher your Blood score the more difficult it is to increase. It has always been in the rules that you shouldn’t allow raising of Blood Strength more than once in a generation, and even then it takes an accomplishment of Epic porportions as well as having increased you blood score by a certain ammount over starting.
Appropriate sections (From the Sanctioned Chap 2 3E Rules):
True bloodlines are unique. Only the greatest heroes of Deismaar, those who were both physically and philosophically closest to the expiring gods, were granted True bloodlines. Only these surviving heroes or their direct heirs through bloodline investiture have True bloodlines. There are believed to be less than a dozen true bloodlines in existence. All known True bloodlines are currently possessed by powerful awnshegh or ehrshegh. These individuals are near demigods and are rumored to be able to grant a divine connection that allows their followers access to divine magic. Some True scions are rumored to have other divine abilities beyond the ken of most mortals.
PCs should not generally be allowed to have True bloodlines. These are reserved for those present at Deismaar and their direct descendents.
The first step toward increasing a scion’s bloodline strength lies in his ability score. The scion must increase his bloodline score to ten or more points above its starting value. Secondly, the character must achieve public fame (or infamy) through their deeds and actions. Legendary feats build the public acclaim that is essential to increasing the strength of a character’s semi-divine blood. A quest to increase one’s bloodline strength requires an epic deed; an increase in bloodline strength never occurs without deeds that are the stuff of legend. A character can never increase his bloodline strength more than once in a generation; this reflects how legendary the act truly is.
Ascension of PC’s to godhood is not something that is covered in the BRCS rules. It is somewhat the basis of the Campaign setting, but was never intended as something for the PC’s to accomplish.
I just wanted to point to some ideas that would allow you to stay more in line with the campaign setting, and still accomplish what you want. There is no reason you can’t ignore increasing Blood Strength more than once a Generation. I would suggest though, that if you want to stay with the flavor of the BRCS, then a true Bloodline would be a requirement of Ascension.
As I’ve stated previously. It’s your game, do what you want to.
Falamar, you seem to be confusing Birthright material with other material.
Book of the Immortals is NOT a Birthright product. So when you ask a question about bloodlines here (the Birthright boards), we’re going to answer you from the context of Birthright, not this other book. Most people here don’t have that book. It is not related to Birthright.
Likewise, what is this bloodseeker class? Is it from the Book of Immortals? If so, then it too is NOT a Birthright class. The rules for that class, and that whole book do not, by default, apply to Birthright.
In Birthright, the official rules say that you can only raise your bloodline strength (not score) once. They also say you can’t have a PC with a True bloodline, and only characters with a True bloodline could theoretically achieve demigod status. (Several awnshegh have true bloodlines, and none of them have achieved.) Those are the official rules for Birthright.
What you do in your own campaign is your business. If you want to apply The Book of Immortals to your campaign, by all means do.
But you can’t expect people here to be famililar with a non-Birthright product, and then refer to them as `official’ rules. If you ask a question here, the answer is going to be from the perspective the official setting.
Then the answer is no their bloodlines do not change. They also cannot ascend - not per the BRCS rules.
I gave examples of where you can find information that might help you develop something for your game, but for the BRCS a scion cannot ascend.
A character likewise cannot raise his bloodline to True.
In order to have a True bloodline a scion must have been at Deismaar, in close proximity to the gods and be philosophically closest.
From Chap 2 (sanctioned) of the BRCS:
True bloodlines are unique. Only the greatest heroes of Deismaar, those who were both physically and philosophically closest to the expiring gods, were granted True bloodlines. Only these surviving heroes or their direct heirs through bloodline investiture have True bloodlines. There are believed to be less than a dozen true bloodlines in existence.
All known True bloodlines are currently possessed by powerful awnshegh or ehrshegh. These individuals are near demigods and are rumored to be able to grant a divine connection that allows their followers access to divine magic. Some True scions are rumored to have other divine abilities beyond the ken of most mortals
I believe you making many false assumptions, as has been pointed out.
When the current gods ascended (ones at Mt Desimar) I have always asumed that the reason they ascended to the Lvl of Greater gods was because of the release of all the old gods blood. And the one that ascended after that went straight to lesser gods was acounted for because they wear blodded people. Any way they skipped Demi god status. If this is so them how would my people ascended? One comes from a True Bloodline and all the others have maxed their blood long ago. When they ascended will they skip Demi-god status? And if so by how much?
Who ascended to godhood after Deismaar?
I know of none - they all happened at that time.
There are 3 children of the present gods (Eloele, Laerme, and Cuiraecen) not to be confused with newly ascended gods.
I also pointed out the error in Greater godhood and relative “power” of the gods.
I suggest using the Deities and Demigods information, especially that about killing the old gods and also imparted divinity. A type of “Investiture” might work well.
You have to remember that the present gods “replaced” existing ones, except for the children. IMO this is similar to a type of “Investiture”.
celtibear wrote:
I would think it depends on where you want to go from here. If you want to run a sequel game, where the new gods/former PCs are trying to build their worshippers, then I’d go with Lesser. When a cleric regent rises to power, or a nation declares one of them as a state religion, then they get promoted to Greater.
On the other hand, if you plan on running even occasional adventures for them after they ascend, then I’d go with Demigod, as they would be easier to challenge.
This, of course, assumes I were running the game- your mileage will vary. (Personally, I might let one or two of my players acheive ershelein [sic] status or sainthood, but not godhood. Just my opinion, of course.)
Also, elves being the atheists, I would say they don’t get godhood, at all. But again, just my opinion.
You seem to belive that I am confused. It is blantantly obvious that the book of immortals isn’t BR. But with any world when you travel the plane or crystal sphere’s any thing and everything is possible.
Like I said I have one person who is palying a elf that was at the Battle of Mt Desimar. The others have raised their bloodline scores. I eother have overlooked or can’t find the rules for raising thier bloodlines fro great to true.
If what you are saying that is what I need to do to stay with the flavor(and I am) then explain somemore to me about that.
But Now lets break away from that mindset for one moment PLEASE
and help me with my question.
Which is…
Say for the moment I have 2 fledgling godlings
Both on the path of trancendance.
A procces that takes 8 challanges and 4 Great challanges
One is a Blooded toon one not, from Greyspace lets say.
Both ascend at the same time.
Would the one with the bloodline get a boost in his godhood over the other?
There are distinct rules for the generating and lvling gods
Gods rate from 0-Hero/godling such as what the group is now
then 1 for demi-god status up to a 20 for greater gods.
Lvl 21+ gods are for the like of AO who no longer need worshipers
Bloodline and Strength are week compared to the personal power characters of 30+ level would have.
So, the answer to your question is up to you.
My, admittedly limited, knowledge of 3E godhood tells me that the god rank (greater, intermediate, lesser, demi) is based on the God level, and nothing else. So, whether a player is blooded or not, the first level of godhood would make them a Demi-god regardless of whether or not they are blooded.
On the other hand, I think the God level would strengthen/boost their Blood powers. Since they are sparks of divine essense, gaining ful godhood would likely make the powers highly potent. Either making them at will, very difficult to resist, or having a greater effect. I’d say that would be a GM preference thing.
OK. BR rule changes: You need to remove the one increase in bloodline strength per generation, permit a great bloodline to be increased to true, and set conditions for doing so, I would suggest that the challenges you mention would be a good starting point for increasingly the bloodline in such a fashion.
I would say that having a true bloodline should be a pre-requisite for godhood in BR - any other means is basically ignoring the setting special rules, so the player without a bloodline is temporarily stuck (although an epic charactor should be able to womp anything short of a dragon / the toughest named awnshegh without breaking a sweat - with bloodtheft a bloodline is a snap for that type) or they could be invested with a bloodline. Alternatively after completing a challenge they could gain a bllodline score as a long dormant bloodline is awakened by the glorious activities of the PC.
While I don’t know the rules re: challenges, I would suggest that you could merge the BR and the godling rules and say that to raise a major bloodline to great requires a challenge or two, to raise great to true requires 1-2 great challenges, your non-blooded PC could be chosen as a champion of a faith for their exploits and be invested with a bloodline by the priests for example if they have already ‘done’ their challenges.
In that way both will be blooded when they ascend and the question of the blodline impact won’t arise.
Alternatively the unblooded godling could be called an elemental spirit / demon / etc and gain from different powers from the blooded godling to reflect that their power is arises not from the ancient gods of the humans, but from some wilder source - its a flavour point only but one which could profoundly impact the types of priest they empower.
Personally I would also make the Gorgon, Rhoubhe, The serpent etc godlings of some sort - everyone needs a good challenge. I’m not quite sure how the elves would do as gods, although if they saw themselves as paragons to be emulated rather than father-types to be obeyed it might well work in BR.
There is no connection between bloodline strength and godhood at the points you are talking about.
Bloodlines are a “spark of divinity”.
Once you have started any type of ascension, as you have indicated the PCs have, all bets are off.
From that point on things progress outside of bloodlines.
You also need to remember that bloodlines are tied to a specific deity so any ascension based soley on bloodlines would have to follow the bloodline’s predisposition.
That is Andurias would be rulership, law and good. Things like that. The old gods were never documented very well (that question has come up before). You would have to make connections with Haelyn and Roele in order to sufficiently connect to what made Andurias tick, IMO.
The same would have to be said of the other bloodline derivations.
As I pointed out earlier there is no connection between deity strength (as in greater to minor deity) for the present gods and all of them ascended at the same time under the same conditions. Hence there is no connection for any new type of ascensions.
I am sorry but I have no idea of the rules under which you are playing so I cannot phrase my answer in a way that is conducive with them.
All I can do is answer IAW with the BRCS (and 2nd ed rules) and some other WotC sources that I have access to.
As far as elves go. Really there is no reason for them to be deified. They are truely immortal and have lived as long as any of the gods. Because of their immortality they do not “worship” any deity in a manner that would increase that deity’s power and thus they would not be “worshipped” in a manner that would increase theirs.
You might want to look at Blood Spawn (a free BR download from WotC) that addresses the “history” of the elves from before the world split. The sidebar on pg 5 talks about how two worlds were one and something about the relationship of the elves is in there. Also on pg 27 there is information on the relationship between the elves, the faerie and the Sie. It might be an idea to have the elf meld with his twin faerie and rebecome a Sie instead of the normal deity.
Thank you for the input. In this time frame we play the gorgon and manslayer are demi-gods. And the 1 elf has achieved sainthood. And doesn’t consider himself a god(this is the one from Mt Desimar) and doesn’t wish to be worshipped but still will gain the power of one when he ascends. The remaining elf was turned to the evil side but was sanctified by the saint “Sanctify the wicked spell” And since his arival in greyspace has considered taking worshipers.
It says that elf for the most part are not religious and the ones that are keep it to them selves, So that leaves an opening for his to gather a small following on Cerilia.
Their goal is to return to Cerilia
Its your game, but I would totally disagree with the elf deity issue.
Have you read/played the 2nd ed material or are you basing everything on the BRCS?
In the BRCS (Ch 3):
Elves cannot advance as clerics except under the most unusual of circumstances. The elves can call upon the forces inherent in wood and water, field and air, but have never worshiped deities. They are aware that the gods of Deismaar existed and that new gods were created, but they do not pay homage to them. Particularly after their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the elves have been adamant in their refusal to worship human gods. To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual and not based upon the judgment of external powers.
and Chap 1:
The elves are aware that gods exist, but they do not pay homage to them. Particularly after their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the elves have been adamant in their refusal to worship human gods. To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual. The path that an elf takes is a decision that only he or she can make. So strong is this belief that if an elf chooses to worship one of the human gods, so be it. The only restriction placed upon such rare individuals is that they not discuss their religious ideologies within elven realms.
They are also extremely unlikely to pick up worshippers from other cultures:
• Infamous reputation: Elves are infamous for pursuing campaigns against entire races, including dwarves, gnolls, goblins, and even humans in many regions (including most of Anuire). Elves receive a -4 racial penalty to Diplomacy, a -4 racial penalty to Gather Information, and a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate in areas where they have an infamous reputation.
[LEFT]They have, as a race, been at war with just about every race on the surface of Cerilia at one time or another - so this reduces the chances of finding any worhippers, IMO.
Just because it seems logical or nice to have elven gods doesn’t mean it fits the setting (from a RAW standpoint that is).[/LEFT]
Damn dude you absolutly proved my point for me with that second quote.
It says they can worship!
It is a choice they make.
I may argue my point but I appreciate the input
In general that means singular (or so close to it that they might as well only be singular).
There are also several quotes referencing “adamant in their refusal to worship human deities”.
Like I said I am unaware of the rules source you are using for ascension. I do not know if it has a tie of deity power to the number of worshippers. Most of the WotC sources do (or have a strong implication of that). To me this makes having an elven deity so rare (because fo their refusal to worship - except is rare cases) that there would be insufficient number of followers to supply the “power” needed for ascension.
Since you have already decided on this ascension - I would make the elven ascension much different than the others. Elves have (and have never had) gods in Cerilia. This is an important issue that should be reflected in any sort of ascension you have planned. I still think tieing them into the Sie would be sufficiently epic (and different enough) to make for a very interesting “path”. It also ties things into the Shadow World (which is always interesting).