These are the ones from 2e that leapt out as mostly domain (I haven’t gone to the storage facility and dragged out my old blood enemies supplement yet).
Battlewise
Blood History (more because its non-combative than anything)
Bloodmark (as above, grants a minor bonus to diplomacy probably).
Character Reading - Has limited combative ability, large social.
Direction Sense - Really less combative than non-adventuring.
Travel - This could be retooled into 1/encounter teleportation affects as well (though it loses flavor).
2e, and to a degree 3e, both focused the bloodlines on adventure level play.
I’d look to create bloodline abilities that affect realm level play more. This does potentially cause a balance issue, but only if blood abilities add to adventure play rather than replacing an existing feature (ffat, skill, power) of it.
I would for example welcome bloodline abilities such as:
-
Weather ward. The regent can avert natural disasters such as storms, floods, blizzards, etc.
-
Sense province. The regent can sense the mood of the province allowing them to frame actions in ways that are readily accepted (bonus to actions?)
-
Land’s blessing. The province responds to the presence of the regent producing a bounteous harvest while the regent is present - increasing the maximum level of the province, or its income if the population is low.
-
Pride of the people. Those loyal to the scion are healthier in the scion’s presence, army units heal quickly, others gain a morale bonus of some sort.
-
Intercession. The scion has a priestly ability to intercede in a followers fate and request that the gods look more favourably on the scion’s follower. This would probably pick up one of the priestly powers and really be there to add to the flavour of scions as touched by the gods.
etc.
I’m ok with creating more blood abilities as well, just those from the base book won’t affect an adventuring party much, but could come into play on domain level.
Well, the big question is should blood abilities affect adventure play at all.
Abilities which affect realm play only are the easiest to balance out in a group of regents and non-regents since adventure level abilities either makes the scion ‘better’ or need some balancing system (i.e. the 3e level adjustment) built in.
I like the idea of players having multiple options - so generating ability trees for each type of scion and saying that they can take one of those abilities instead of a class ability seems like a fair way of doing the bloodlines, similarly scion-only feats could be bought instead of the regular feats.
That then leaves the ‘real’ bloodline work that needs doing on the 4e conversion restricted purely to domain level play - which we can handle easily.
We definitely need to “balance” the abilities so they at least have either a realm effect or adventure effect depending on the scenario, otherwise people will either have lots of power at one end and little at the other.
It might be too big of a change to remove blood abilities from adventure play. I am for one trying to keep the world as close as possible to the original. I think there are ways to make blood abilities balance into adventure play.
- Feats for blood powers.
- Seperate paragon paths for each derivation.
What we need to do … and I don’t have the books some others might have to help me.
Make people use their starting feat to denote if they are blooded or not. That will give them the option to use feats to gain some blood powers. This should also give them access to abilities (Paragon Path) for each seperate derivation.
Now the feats and path abilities will have pre-reqs to keep people from getting certain powers too quickly.
Not sure if this makes sense for 4th edition.
-BB
Feats for nonfighters are no longer just fluff is the problem with that approach, its not for rounding out a character or giving them a little umph All classes get a feat about every other level (you wind up with 18 feats by level 30),
However
There are elemental styling feats that boost damages for a wizard
There are bolstering feats for leaders to boost various buffs and healing they give
There are divine feats that allow clerics and paladins to channel their god
There are pact feats that allow the warlock to perform more ably
There are still generic feats (including one to get trained in a skill you weren’t) that are useful to everyone
In addition to the weapon feats
And then there is Racial feats.
If we tie Blood entirely into feats/paragon paths We either have everyone being blooded or no one depending on how its balanced.
If we divorce blood from character sheet by having ‘domain level’ blood affects and ‘adventure level’ blood affects and make the second feats/paths then its back to a better feel of if it fits the character or not.
Yeah, I wanted to get a list of blood abilities for now that should be retoole to the domain level, as I think that step will be easier then sorting out how to apporach making blood abilities in the adventure useful while not being ‘absolutely nessarcy’
We are going to have to come up with rules for both. But we can keep them wholely seperate so if someone wants to not include adventure level blood abilities they can.
Ultimately we need to find a way to balance blood powers with character building. Keeping the system seperate leads to an unbalance of people with blood powers and people without. I might be ok with that because the setting could dictated some individuals being better than others.
Now tying in blood powers with feats and paths is an easy way to balance out the powers. If we keep them balanced with other abilities they can get then they will have important decisions to make. Grow their domain level powers or class level powers. I think many campaigns … like the one I run … has both.
I can see a situation where a powerful blooded individuals would focus on blood power training than their standard class. This leaves them open to being killed more easily one on one … but a force to reckoned with on a domain level.
Personally I feel we should tie them into feats and paths. With the amount they get of each … makes the most sense.
To me the easiest route is to list out feats and abilities for each bloodline. A blooded character can choose an ability / feat from the bloodline list instead of their usual class feat / ability when they level up.
That way you:
a) always have balance - the scion has the same number of feats and abilities as anyone else (1 per level from what I can see).
b) can retain the low magic feel by restricting the highly magical abilities / feats to scion paths.
c) get an adventure level feel to bloodline without having to make major changes to the existing system.
To differentiate bloodlines you could restrict a tainted bloodline to abilities of level 1-5, minor of level 6-10, etc in the bloodline list or some such.
I’d then treat the rest of bloodline and domain rule entirely separately to the adventure level rules. Awnshegh would probably need a third system still.
AndrewTall,
I agree with you. To take it a step further you can have Paragon path Options for the more powerful or consistant blood powers … but have feats back them up. Example would be …
Animal Affinity
Paragon Path - Scion gains Empathic Communication with a Totem Animal. Species of that animal will never attack the Scion and gains wild empathy with that animal.
Feat
-Expert Animal Affinity (horrible name I know)
-Pre-Req - Animal Affinity
-Scion gains the ability to speak with totem animal and animal will listen to reasonable requests.
Feat
Advanced Animal Affinity (I know)
- Pre-Req - Animal Affinity/Expert Animal Affinity
- Scion can Detect totem Animal, has enhanced communication with totem animal and gains shape change into totem animal 1/day
This might be the ideal way to go.
Could Animal Affinity also have a Domain level?
e.g.
Domain Level
[ul]
[li]Paragon Animal Affinity- No units of the totem animal can attack the province in which the Scion is located, without his/her approval.
[/li][li] Expert Animal Affinity - The totem animal can be used to help Espionage actions (and give some bonus for using non-humanoid espionage).
[/li][li] Advanced Animal Ability - War units of the totem animal can be called up to serve as a military force within their home province. These units will only listen to commands given by the Scion. The Scion does not have to have any holdings in the province.
[/li][/ul]
So Paragon would counter Advanced, but in both cases, the Scions would have to be in the province. If wolves were the Totem Animal, then goblin wolfriders would be affected by the Paragon level. The Spider would have Advanced level and be able to call up forces of Spiders to protect the Spiderfell.
These might have to be limited to 1/year, but they already have a lot of restrictions in the definitions.
Sorontar.
Sorontar,
Yeah we could seperate it like that. I like that idea. We could include your option in with the other Animal Affinity paths so they have an adventure componant and realm componant. Many abilities could have both.
Now on to my silliness. Mind you I haven’t read 4th edition so what I am about to post is completely too early and uses many 3.5 terms and rules. It is to mostly show you what I am thinking. I wanted to use the Paragon Path set up with blood abilities. Below is an example of one bloodline.
Now I didn’t look into balance, many abilities make no sense in 4th edition, but with this set up it will work with the regular class build. If the character is blooded with Anduiras then they will have access to this path. There will be feats to back up some of these abilities and in some cases expanding them like my Animal Affinity listed above.
Anduiras Path
Levels 1-10
Animal Affinity
Bloodmark
Minor Courage
Minor Healing
Heightened Ability – Charisma/Strength
Iron Will
Minor Long Life
Minor Resistance – Charm
Animal Affinity
Pre-Req: Anduiras
The Scion gains Empathic Communication with Totem animal within 60 feet. Members of that species will never attack the scion. Also the scion gains empathic ability like a druid or ranger with their totem animal.
Bloodmark
Pre-Req: None
Scion bears a visible sign of his special heritage. He gains a bonus to Charisma based skills.
Courage, Minor
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion is immune to all fear effects
Healing
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains an additional healing surge per day. (not sure if this is correct 4th edition)
Heightened Ability Charisma/Strength
Pre-Req: Andurias
Scion gains a +2 to either Charisma or Strength. Can only be taken once.
Iron Will
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline
Scion gains an additional 1 hp per character level, gains the Toughness feat (3.5 edition) and a +1 to Will defense and Fortitude defense (all or some of this might work … depending on balance.)
Long Life
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline
Scion only ages 1 year for every 5 years that pass.
Resistance - Charm
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains a +4 Will defense against spells from the charm school or any spell that attacks the mind.
Levels 11-20 (Major Bloodline is needed)
Battlewise
Courage
Divine Aura
Enhanced Sense
Major Healing
Major Long Life
Protection from Evil
Unreadable Thoughts
Battlewise
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains a +2 to their effective EL on the battlefield.
Courage, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Minor Courage
Scion’s immunity to fear spreads to effect those in a 10 foot radius.
Divine Aura
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion receives a +2 to all charisma based skills. They can also Enthrall any non-blooded people once per day.
Enhanced Sense
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion can detect evil once per encounter.
Healing, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Healing
Scion can cure disease, paralysis, blindness/defness, restoration once per day. They can also give their bonus healing surge from Healing to someone else in their party.
Long Life, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline, Long Life
Scion only ages 1 year for every 25 years that pass.
Protection from Evil
Pre-Req: Anduiras Bloodline
Scion is warded with a protection from evil at all times
Unreadable Thoughts
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion is immune to any spell or ability that can read his mind.
Levels 21-30 (Great Bloodline needed)
Great Courage
Great Divine Aura
Divine Wrath
Elemental Control
Great Enhanced Sense
Great Healing
Great Long Life
Resistance – Magic
Great Protection from Evil
Courage, Great
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Major Courage
A military unit that includes the scion automaticly make all moral checks.
Divine Aura
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion receives a +2 to all charisma based skills. They can also Enthrall any non-blooded people once per day.
Divine Wrath
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains a Barbarian like rage, damage reduction and a fear gaze.
Elemental Control
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion can summon an elemental once per week and can control winds once per day.
Enchanced Sense, Great
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Enhanced Sense
Scion can detect evil at will.
Healing, Great
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Healing major
Scion can use their bonus healing surge as a fast action.
Long Life, Great
Pre-Req: Anduiras Bloodline, Long Life Major
Scion only ages 1 year for every 100 years that pass.
Resistance – Magic
Pre-Req: Anduiras
The Scion has improved defense vs. Spells
Protection from Evil, Great
Pre-Req: Anduiras Bloodline, Protection from Evil
Scion’s Protection from Evil ward extends 10 feet.
I’m still not thrilled with bloodlines being tied to level. It doesn’t make sense in concept. They are innate and passed on via birth, not experience. Teenagers can manifest bloodpowers that would hardly fit for a level 11+ character. Putting bloodlines into the feat system not only ruins that but it will produce PCs that are deficient when compared to others in terms of combat effectiveness.
Lawgiver,
I understand your issues with it ... and certain it changes something core to the game. On the flip side of your issue with having character weaker than they should be for combat .... playing a adventure campaign might have to deal with over-powered characters at level one if they don't find a way to balance. Having a level 1 character being able to summon a large elemental or being able to confuse every non-blooded person around them will ruin many encounters.
What is the answer I don't know. How powerful their bloodline is isn't attached to their level and shouldn't be ... I was listing blood [b]powers[/b] to be tied to level a bit more. It creates a balanced campaign for either adventure or rulership. If a character wants to spend their abilities and feats on improving and gaining new blood powers they can ... but that also means they haven't been focusing on class abilities and could be weaker ... which in the end was their own choice and must suffer the consequences of their choices. Their blood score will remain the same. I was thinking that bloodscore would be a basis for WHICH blood powers they had access too, but not have automaticly if they don't pay attention to that side of their being.
I could envision a character that is using his blood powers as a crutch and hasn't refined his skill with a sword because of it. I could very realisticly seeing something like that happen.
Worst case senario, as someone else mentioned, we could have all the blood powers listed the same but two different system for getting them depending on the type of campaign. I don't love this idea but would support it if everyone was for it.
-BB
They will be only deficient if the powers are useless. The other way around is equally possible.
I dislike the idea of specified bloodline paths tied to derviation. The reason I do is simple, by tying derviation and certain adventure level powers to a single bloodline you pigeonhole that derviation. While in 2e, much of Vorynn’s abilities were tied to magic, and much of Andurais was tied into fighting, neither one wasn’t beneficial for it.
On the adventuring side of the bloodline abilities, we are basically replacing other powers with the blood abilities. By giving the same feel, fighters will not want to be of Vorynn’s line. This to me is Bad. that said, because this is a communal work, I will make suggestions on your listings.
#1 no druids, and rangers are no longer nature tied. In general animal companion type things are disliked in 4e due to conservation of actions (That is, do not let the palyers get 8+ actions a round through various animals and summonings).
#2 Empathic Communication also hasn’t been established
#3 Animal Affinity used to be with all blood lines so I think you mean Animal Affinity (Lions), but I could be wrong?
#4 I cannot see any class being willing to give up one of their combat related powers/feats to pick this up.
If we go this way, Perhaps change Animal Affinity (lion) to:
Heart of the Lion
Daily Power Close Burst 2 (Basically a 5x5 square with the caster in the center)
Target: Allies in Burst
Effect: All allies gain a +Cha modifer bonus to their AC until the end of encounter.
Special: This power replaces one of the daily class powers you recieve.
Bloodmark
Pre-Req: None
Scion bears a visible sign of his special heritage. He gains a bonus to Charisma based skills.
4E skills requiring Charisma
Bluff
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Streetwise
4/17 ~ 25% of skills, one of them (intimidate) needs errata’d bad (right now, if you make a Intimidate check above the will defense of an bloodied opponent they surrender instantly, and can be applied to an entire battlefield at once).
Once it gets erratted I would suggest either a static bonus (+3ish) or a tier based bonus (+2/4/6) for the adventuring component, and even then isn’t likely to be highly desired for a power swap, but Mark of Andurias could be a decent feat.
Courage, Minor
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion is immune to all fear effects
Fear is now a descriptor on some powers that deal damage. I think a better wording is that they are immune to ongoing affects from fear descriptor powers.
Healing
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains an additional healing surge per day. (not sure if this is correct 4th edition)
There is already a feat for that. My general idea is: Either A). May use Second Wind 2/day instead of 1/day or: May use a healing surge to heal a ompanion 1+Wis modifer times a day (this basically is lay on hands by a Paladin though).
Heightened Ability Charisma/Strength
Pre-Req: Andurias
Scion gains a +2 to either Charisma or Strength. Can only be taken once.
No. The reality is, Ability bonuses are close to impossible to come by. this feat becomes critical to anyone using Charisma/Strength based powers (Fighter, Warlords, Paladins, Clerics, Warlocks). The way belts are worded now is “Gains +X to ability checks (not attack or damage rolls)” for that attribute.
Sooo:
“Gains a +2 modifer to any ability or Skill check (not including attack or damage rolls) for Strength or Charisma”
Iron Will
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline
Scion gains an additional 1 hp per character level, gains the Toughness feat (3.5 edition) and a +1 to Will defense and Fortitude defense (all or some of this might work … depending on balance.)
Toughness is refueled. Over all, this isn’t actually that far off, but 1hp isn’t that great. +1 to will/fort defenses might balance it. The only issue is some builds of rangers (Two weapon) get toughness as bonus feat, and toughness is no longer multiply selectedable, but scales with tier. I would suggest just dropping the toughness feat, and make it +1 hp/level per tier (meaning that at paragon level 11, they get +11 hp)
Long Life
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline
Scion only ages 1 year for every 5 years that pass.
This to me is nice, but not power replacing nice. Really Long Life doesn’t affect combat, and rarely truly affects game play. (Few Campaigns last for centuries)
Resistance - Charm
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains a +4 Will defense against spells from the charm school or any spell that attacks the mind.
charm is mostly gone, and is now a descriptor for powers. drop the charm, up it to +5 (Eladrin race gets that much, its a good starting point)
Levels 11-20 (Major Bloodline is needed)
Battlewise
Courage
Divine Aura
Enhanced Sense
Major Healing
Major Long Life
Protection from Evil
Unreadable Thoughts
Battlewise
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion gains a +2 to their effective EL on the battlefield.
Battlefield needs to be specified for specifically mass combat.
Courage, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Minor Courage
Scion’s immunity to fear spreads to effect those in a 10 foot radius.
See above for rewording of this affect, change 10ft radius to 1 square close burst (Everyone within 5ft) or 2 square close burst (10ft).
Probably should be limited to 1/encounter and have it last until next turn with a sustain of minor action.
Divine Aura
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion receives a +2 to all charisma based skills. They can also Enthrall any non-blooded people once per day.
+2 to charisma skills even unnamed isn’t that great at level 11. (you already have +10 from level)
Enthrall is no longer a term. Give them a dominate either 1/day or 1/encounter power. (I could work out the wording, would have to look up a few monsters to make sure I don’t make it overly powerful)
Enhanced Sense
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion can detect evil once per encounter.
Detect Evil doesn’t exist. Also, detecting evil is apprachoing useless in a standard encoutner. This is an extremely minor benfit to a lvl 11+ character, would never be selected.
Healing, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras, Healing
Scion can cure disease, paralysis, blindness/defness, restoration once per day. They can also give their bonus healing surge from Healing to someone else in their party.
Diseases are ongoing damage, grant a +X (possible charsima) to the save. Paralysis is now immbolized, also save power. Same with Blindness/deafness. No ability damage, restoration not needed.
See above about the last. Maybe grant +1d6hp to the healing surge.
Long Life, Major
Pre-Req: Anduiras bloodline, Long Life
Scion only ages 1 year for every 25 years that pass.
See above about my quibble with Long Life period.
Protection from Evil
Pre-Req: Anduiras Bloodline
Scion is warded with a protection from evil at all times
Protection from Evil doesn’t exsist, grant Resist Necrotic of Charisma, and a +1 to all defenses until the end of encounter (as a suggestion)
Unreadable Thoughts
Pre-Req: Anduiras
Scion is immune to any spell or ability that can read his mind.
No ability as of yet does so. As the Orginal Cerillia was no psionic, I don’t think it will ever happen.
I didn’t do epic as I ran out words.
That’s the point. The old gods had specializations and that influences the scions. This is setting again, its really not negotiable.
While in 2e, much of Vorynn’s abilities were tied to magic, and much of Andurais was tied into fighting, neither one wasn’t beneficial for it.
The last clause in this statement doesn’t make sense. Please rephrase.
On the adventuring side of the bloodline abilities, we are basically replacing other powers with the blood abilities. By giving the same feel, fighters will not want to be of Vorynn’s line. This to me is Bad.
I don’t see the problem here. If Vorynn is a sub-optimal mix with fighter, and a player doesn’t want it for story reasons, why pick it? Select Anduiras or something else.
#1 no druids, and rangers are no longer nature tied. In general animal companion type things are disliked in 4e due to conservation of actions.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Both druids and pet masters will come in time, they’re supposed to follow in later books. Second both are social roles as much as they are classes, and its perfectly reasonable to have the social role without the class. Given the god of Erik, and the social order of the Rjuirk people, I think we’ll always have druids and rangers who are tied to Erik/nature. If you want to use the ranger class to describe an Anuirean robin hood, that’s fine. I think we’ll see all of what bbeau22 is describing in the 1st year of the game.
There are examples in the Players Handbook about feats tied to specific things, like the Divine Changelling feats tied to the god the cleric worships. I don’t see why tying blood feats/powers to derivations would be a problem (given that a player can choose his derivation).
About druids, they aren’t going to have companions and summonings, Wizards has already posted about that. Druids are going to be an Hybrid class and it will play around form transformations.
I think we aren’t going to see classes with pets any time soon (at least from Wizards). With no paladin mounts, wizard familiars, ranger companions, and druids are announced to not have companions either, I think they have made their point pretty clear.
Thanks for looking at my list. Certainly it isn’t perfect using old rules and not being totally complete. Yes Animal Affinity is for every derivation as our other blood powers … I just didn’t feel the need to list them all out at the time … got lazy with my typing.
It was more of an outline of how I envision blood powers working in a 4th edition setting. There will also be feats that give others powers directly tied into the abilities above.
In the Saga edition rules for Jedi, if you were force sesitive you could take a feat that would give you additional force powers instead of a typical class feat. This might work well with Blood powers. In Star Wars the feat would allow you to choose a number of force powers that is equal to your intellegence modifier (I think.) Many of the per day abilities or per encounter abilities could fall into this cataglory.
It would really depend on how powerful we make the per day and encounter blood ablities. If they are powerful than a single feat could get you one. If we make them a little weaker then something like the above could be a good choice.
-BB