Blooded Undead?

In my campaign one of my regents died and was reanimated, becoming a free-willed undead. Just before doing this he attempted to divest his bloodline into his non-blooded apprentice. Since I know he reads these forums I can’t give to many details as to how I handled the mechanics of that.

The question I have now is, can he become blooded again? I know it is only a matter of time until he slays a blooded character, does he have a chance of becoming blooded?

I’m already pretty sure what I’m going to do, but I wanted to post here and see what you all thought about this. Again, I can’t say what I’ve decided since Midnight reads here often.

There’s a good discussion about this over at:
http://birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4066&highlight=undead

Specifically, what would it take to become blooded in your opinions?

An appropriately great story line. If regaining a bloodline - and possibly mortality / a twisted mockery thereof - is of benefit to the storyline and the player can pull of the RP requiredwthout narking the other players, then it works - nuff said.

I have to agree with Andrew. If it’s at all feasible, is good for the plot and the other players don’t mind going along with it, just let it happen!

I’m going to disagree with the other two posters. As per the BRCS :
“Contained within the blood of each scion is some tiny fraction of the divine essence that was released when the ancient gods were destroyed at Deismaar.”

If the body is undead, the blood isn’t flowing. That divine spark is gone, dead as the body that housed it. Allowing your player to “regain” Divine essence into a body that doesn’t even have a beating heart is introducing a serious power imbalance into the game. They are called ‘blood powers’ because they are linked directly to the life blood of the scion. Death severs this link. If death severs the link, you can’t “reset and start over”. Otherwise I can think of a number of evil regents who’d be all over that plan!

Of course, that would have its own issues, since Anuire is very much adverse to necromancy, raising the dead etc. An undead regent should find itself the target of a number of temples and good aligned regents.

I am not a fan of “If it feels good, do it” theory of DMing. It always leads to trouble, power imbalances and players feeling they are not getting the same “cool stuff” as other players.

At 02:24 PM 2/20/2008, dunsel wrote:

>The question I have now is, can he become blooded again? I know it
>is only a matter of time until he slays a blooded character, does he
>have a chance of becoming blooded?

This is one of those things that remains undecided. Some folks favor
it, while others are against, but neither side can really find
supporting evidence in the existing materials to support their
opinion. There`s even been some debate about whether a scion would
keep his bloodline after being raised as undead, and little to
support or refute either stance on the issue.

Personally, I think that lack is the best evidence that such a thing
should not be possible. After all, if it is possible for an undead
to gain a bloodline one would think that in the 1,500 years that
there have been bloodlines on the continent some undead somewhere
would have gained one and been notable enough to be mentioned
somewhere in the recorded history of the setting. Some regent
somewhere and somewhen who was raised as undead (assuming he doesnt keep his bloodline automatically) would have purposely set about gained a new one and ruled at some point in the setting, and such a thing would be worth noting, especially since that character is "immortal" just as other (non-undead) characters in the setting are, and could still be around. So if it were possible, I think wed have
heard of it happening.

From a simple gaming standpoint, it seems like it opens a whole new
can of worms regarding the possibility of a character gaining too
much power and having too much control. Undead regents means undead
scions means undead scion spawn, and that seems like the kind of
thing that could get out of control if the DM were to adjudicate the
system objectively. Many of the issues folks have with the recent
discussion about aging and experience being problematic when related
to immortal elves are just as big a problem for immortal
undead. Were "stuck" with the immortality of elves and their ability to be scions, but the DM neednt extend that dynamic to yet
another type of character… or if he does he should be aware that it
might lead to the kinds of things that several folks find game
breaking or that strains their sense of the game.

Gary

Vampires could be blooded, at least temporary, IMHO…

What rules are you using?

2nd ed, BRCS or house-rules? The specific answer depends on the framework to be used.

Using the BRCS (sanction Chapter 2):

Technically, yes it would be possible.

People, animals, and on very rare occasions, even objects in the immediate area of a scion’s violent death may absorb a portion of the scion’s divine essence.

So follow the rules there for Usurpation and the section on becoming blooded through usurpation.

But pay attention to the codifier of “on very rare occasions”. Personally I would allow it but I would insert some special mechanic to make it more difficult to accomplish, perhaps haveing a lesser effect (like only half as good as the normal method).

Under Chap 3 Resurrection:

[FONT=Times New Roman]Secondly, when a scion dies, the vital energy of their bloodline is released at the moment of their death and absorbed by those nearby. A resurrected character’s bloodline is gone forever. They have no bloodline score and are not a scion. They can certainly attempt to gain a new bloodline through investiture or bloodtheft, but their original bloodline can never be restored.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Lastly, when a regent dies, their domain passes to their heir (or becomes uncontrolled if they have no designated heir). The resurrected character is no longer a regent. Another now claims the gold and regency of the domain that they once held. History has shown that resurrecting a scion often leads to tragic events as the resurrected party is tempted to engage in bloodtheft to reclaim a birthright they feel is rightfully theirs. In order to reclaim their domain, a resurrected regent would need to somehow obtain a bloodline and re-invest their old realm from its current regent (their heir).
[/FONT]

2nd ed rules

Book of Priestcraft:

pg 83

“Should the regent be returned to life at some later time by use of magic, the former regernt doe not regain his lost domain; it remains in the hands of his successor. His death devered the link between land and king, and from that point forward, he can never be invested as the ruler of his former domain again, since the land will refuse him. The resurrected character could possibley win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away by designating it before his death.”

The 2nd ed material is silent on whether undead can have bloodlines or not, although there are examples of undead (albeit awnies) that have them.

Actually looking deeper undead can become blooded.

In the Rjurik Highlands (pg 96) there is a new creature, the Spectral Scion, which is a creature that was slain with a taeghmaevril weapon (hence they lost their bloodline in the process). One of their special abilities is that they can regain a bloodline by slaying a scion.

One thing is clear though - the act of dying severs the connection between a regent and his holdings immediately.

In 2nd ed he can never regain them in the BRCS the door is open for him to do so.

I don’t see why he couldn’t become blooded. Blood Enemies pg 59 the Magian is undead and it qoutes

“Now, he is immortal, as the blood of Azrai removed the frailties of his undead state.”

I don’t see why he couldn’t be blooded but I would probably only allow Azrai blood to do this as it is twisted and evil and full of dark power from an evil god.

tpdarkdraco wrote:

>I dont see why he couldnt become blooded. Blood Enemies pg 59 the
>Magian is undead and it qoutes
>
>“Now, he is immortal, as the blood of Azrai removed the frailties of
>his undead state.”

Well… The Magian is “undead” but hes not standard, D&D undead, which is what is being asked about here. The Magian is one of the Lost, and his undead state has to do with a connection to the Shadow World and the power of Azrai. In a sense, hes a proto-scion. His
immortality and powers are already based on the power of a god
flowing through him, so its not particularly surprising that he could have a bloodline. If ones power is based on godly influence,
gaining a power that represents godly influence isnt much of a leap. His awnsheghlien abilities mimic those of a lich, but hes not
really a lich if you line up their abilities and compare them directly.

Id also note that the BRCS documents text on gaining a bloodline
through bloodtheft/usurpation is also silent on undead. Yes, it is
possible for all kinds of things to gain a bloodline, or gain effects
that are similar, and that`s based on some ideas in the original 2e
setting, but that text was meant to be exceptional rather than a
general concept.

So, if the question is, "Can a creature made undead by Azrai before
Deismaar gain a bloodline (particularly Azrais derivation) after returning to Cerilia?" then yes, I think thats possible. If the
question is “can a regular D&D character who becomes a typical D&D
undead and gain a bloodline?” then my answer is still no. If one has
exceptional (read: DM fiat) circumstances then sure, its possible, just as its possible for the DM to have an awakened carrot with a
bloodline if he so chooses.

Gary

See Spectral Scion for an example of an BR specific non-unique undead that can gain a bloodline (specifically a scion that was killed previously).

First off, when the player died, he should have lost his bloodline as the rules state. Every version is pretty clear on the fact that the link between the land and the Scion is broken and even if resurected the charcter is no longer a scion.

Between the Magian and even objects being able to absorb some of the released essense, I would most definetely allow an intelligent undead to become Scions.

However, as a GM I would feel obligated to make the characters undeath as a scion hell. If the people found out, they would plot and unrest would become more common. Their neighbors would plot against the undead scion no matter how nice he seemed. He would have to take extreme measures to try to escape detection, but as a scion, especially if they have a domain, it would be nearly impossible for no one to notice the change. Speaking of changes, hiding his new “life style” would likely require changing old habits. Do they have a lover? Even a queen might go to the nearest priest upon suspicion of their King being undead. Remember, in Cerilia undead are part of the shadow world. So anyone playing undead would automatically be assumed to be evil even if they weren’t.

If it became common knowledge, elves would leave their homes to destroy the scions domain. The abomination might be enough for Humans and elves to stand together to destroy them if that’s what it took.

So yeah, while I would allow it, I don’t think the players undeath would be very long lived.

I also agree that the player would corrupt any bloodline they inherited into that of Azrai.

At 04:30 PM 2/21/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>See Spectral Scion for an example of an BR specific non-unique
>undead that can gain a bloodline (specifically a scion that was
>killed previously).

A Spectral Scion does not gain or retain a bloodline after death. At
least, there is not bloodline listed in the stats for the monster,
despite a rather detailed list of things that the creature does
retain. A Spectral Scion drains the bloodline from blooded
characters due to its “hunger” for their own missing bloodline, and
bloodline can be returned to the victim, but the Spectral Scion
itself doesn`t actually manifest any sort of bloodline.

If you meant the Spectral Awnshegh from Bloodspawn, however, you
might be on to something. Those characters do retain some sort of
bloodline after death and usurpation. However, as they “exist at the
will (and the whim) of the Cold Rider” theres something else going on there. The Cold Rider is a kind of god, maybe even the remnant of Azrai himself, so theres a whole exceptional loophole in that
process that is not unlike the Lost.

Gary

At 05:43 PM 2/21/2008, ploesch wrote:

>First off, when the player died, he should have lost his bloodline
>as the rules state. Every version is pretty clear on the fact that
>the link between the land and the Scion is broken and even if
>resurected the charcter is no longer a scion.

That was my impression too, but a more careful reading of the text
indicates that what`s being talked about there is the link between a
regent and his domain, not a scion and his bloodline. Regency is
lost upon death, but not bloodline, so a scion who was raised from
the dead by a spell would retain his bloodline.

I suppose one could interpret the break between the scion and “the
land” as a loss of bloodline… but it seems pretty clear that that
was not the original intent.

Gary

Gary is correct (see the quote fro the Book of Priestcraft I provided earlier).

A scion who dies loses his tie to his holdings but not his bloodline (unless slain with a bloodlsilver weapon or he had done a ceremony of Investiture to transfer his bloodline ahead of time).

In the OP’s case the PC had done a transfer of bloodline so he is now an unblooded free-willed undead.

Where (and how) he goes from there is what he wants to know.

My bad, you are correct here. The SS “steals” blood points but doesn’t seem to gain anything by doing so.

The weapon Blood Hungry (from the adventure of the same name) likewise steals bloodline points but it only gains Int and magical enhancements but not a bloodline.

I found this in the BRCS

“However, because the scions divine essence is contained in his blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a violent manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded character dies non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn’t result in the spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their bloodline passes with them, either to their heir or to into the land itself if they had not designated a heir. However, if a scion’s blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power.”

It makes it pretty clear that the bloodline goes when the scion dies. Either it leaves for an heir, back to the land, or to their killer in the case of usurpation or bloodtheft.

And once undead, how do you put a “divine spark” into a reanimated shell?

Gary was referring to the 2nd ed rules, again which I provided the quote from earlier. (See Book of Priestcraft).

I also referenced the BRCS rules that pertain.

I also pointed out that there was a difference depending on what rule set was being used. The one commonality to both is that the regent’s tie to his holdings is gone.

The BRCS has the scion losing his bloodline once dead (see the quote from Chapter 3 under resurrection)

I also pointed out that in Chapter 2 it talks about objects getting bloodlines (similar words existed in the 2nd ed rules). In general an undead is considered “an object” so it would technically be possible to have an undead receive a bloodline, but it is supposed to be rare.

So since a divine spark can be placed into an object. . . . .

At 12:39 PM 2/22/2008, Capricia wrote:

>I found this in the BRCS
>
>"However, because the scions divine essence is contained in his
>blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a violent
>manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded character dies
>non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn`t result in the

spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their bloodline passes
with them, either to their heir or to into the land itself if they
had not designated a heir. However, if a scion`s blood is spilt as a
>result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence
>of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power."
>
>It makes it pretty clear that the bloodline goes when the scion
>dies. Either it leaves for an heir, back to the land, or to their
>killer in the case of usurpation or bloodtheft.

As Irdeggman pointed out, I think this is a misreading of the
original rules, so the folks who put together the current document
erred in this interpretation. I had made the same assumption,
though, because the text in the Rulebook, p31 also makes it sound as
if bloodline goes too: “If a blooded character dies a natural death
or perishes at the hand of a commoner, his bloodline is unaffected,
and all his bloodline characteristics die with him…”

There was a pretty consistent problem with the use of terms in the
original 2e document, so “bloodline is unaffected” and “all his
bloodline characteristics die” would seem to be a contradiction, but
what the latter term appears to mean is that no bloodline is
transferred to the killer given the context of the other quotes in
the rest of that section. The main issues are the scions bloodline, how much (if any) bloodline is transferred to a killer, a regents
accumulated RP, and the disposition of a regent`s domain after his
death. The circumstances under which a scion/regent can die as
presented in the original bloodtheft rules are

  1. A scion killed by a commoner or dying a “natural” death.
  2. A regent killed by a commoner or dying a “natural” death.
  3. A scion killed by another scion.
  4. A regent killed by another scion.
  5. A “last of his line” regent killed by a scion.
  6. A scion killed by a scion wielding a tighmaevril weapon.
  7. A regent killed by a scion wielding a tighmaevril weapon.

The results of those deaths are:

  1. Nothing much other than a stained shirt and funeral expenses.
  2. Domain and RP transferred to an heir.
  3. Slayer gains 1 or 2 bloodline score points.
  4. Slayer gains 1 or 2 bloodline score points, domain is transferred
    to an heir, RP are lost.
  5. Slayer gains 1/5 of victim`s bloodline score points and his
    RP. Domain becomes “uncontrolled.”
  6. Slayer gains 1/2 of victim`s bloodline score points.
  7. Slayer gains 1/2 of victim`s bloodline score points, RP are lost
    and domain becomes uncontrolled.

However, where I think the source of confusion is that things get
even more convoluted when it comes to the rules regarding the
designation of an heir, because once an heir is invested a victims bloodline score is transferred to that character upon his death. Should such a scion or regent be killed and raised from the dead hed have no bloodline since that power has gone to the
heir. That would appear to be what was meant by the text that says
that the scion`s “bloodline is unaffected” should he die under
circumstances #1 and #2. That is, all the other methods of
bloodtheft take bloodline score points from the scion/regent and
interfere with the inheritance process by reducing the amount of the
inheritance. The heir of a scion who was killed under circumstance
#3 would inherit a bloodline that was 1 or 2 points lower than the
original since those points were drained off by the
killer. Similarly, a scion who died under circumstance #6 would only
pass along half his bloodline to his heir.

Conversely, a scion who died under any of those circumstances without
an heir would lose a like amount from his bloodline score. That is,
a regent killed under circumstance #2 who had no heir could be raised
from the dead with this bloodline intact, while one who was the “last
of his line” (#5) would lose 1/5 of his bloodline when raised.

And once undead, how do you put a “divine spark” into a reanimated shell?

In the absence of some exceptional mode of reanimation, I dont think you can. I think there must be something about the nature of bloodline that prevents it from taking hold in any of the standard D&D undead. Maybe it has to do with the nature of worship and divinity. After all, I dont think a regent would derive a whole
heck of a lot of regency from the adoration of a zombie
population… Maybe it has to do with the nature of immortality
(either undead or elven) being the kind of thing that turns a
character away from the ability and inclination to worship gods in
the way that other mortal characters can. (Though that one`s a bit
of an interpretation too…) Maybe it has something to do with the
interaction between bloodline, the world of light and cosmic
interference from the Shadow World. There are any number of
justifications for such an interpretation.

Just as important, though, is that I think there are several game
mechanical reasons to avoid the situation. So I don`t think it
should be used in BR as a standard concept, and would advise against
it in a homebrew unless someone wanted to take their game in a
direction that might diverge strongly from the ideas expressed in the
original materials.

OK, so that said, if one wanted to allow it, I could see some sort of
exception for a few intelligent undead, particularly vampires, whose
feeding habits have a nice symmetry with the idea of bloodline and
some of the exceptional modes of bloodline transfer described in the
original materials. Other undead feed on humans in various ways–I
wrote up a ghoulish awnshegh once whose background had to do with
having been “executed” (he could arguably have been only near death
rather than actually dead) and then thrown on a pile of corpses where
his transformation took hold and he began to feed upon the
dead. That character is one of the exceptions rather than the rule
since he was already a scion, and therefore his transformation was
into a ghoul-like awnshegh, not an actual ghoul, but the basic
premise having to do with devouring the dead makes a certain sense
for ghouls and ghasts.

It should be noted, however, that even The Vampire didn`t seem to
come about becoming blooded in this way…

Personally, I havent quite figured out what happens with a lich when he becomes undead. Liches are specifically mentioned in the back of the rulebook (but so are gnomes...) but if one loses bloodline upon death/undeath then how would a lich remain able to cast true magic? Surely that ability is one that is necessary for such a character, and part of what makes one a lich in the first place. Lich-magicians just dont seem apt. Of course, given the
“low-level” and “low-magic” nature of the setting, that particular
issue is something of a rarity, but it`s worth mentioning.

Gary

Perhaps the wizard seeks a patron from the Shadow World who helps them craft the lich’s phylactery, which is then concealed in the SW. At this time the two work to corrupt the wizards sources with awnmebhaighl, which the lich will require to continue controlling the sources. The dark power forges a ley line to the lich’s holdings in one or two places, which acts as a portal for the dark power to seek to corrupt more life from the daylight world. As the dark power goes about with his desired goal of corruption, strange goings on occur and undead appear with frequency. To the learned, this heralds the arrival of a lich. So while the wizard is now a lich, those most interested in their destruction are alerted to their corruption and the ally who helped (and was neccesary for the process) acts as a kind of beacon corrupting and creating mayhem.

At 12:37 AM 2/23/2008, kgauck wrote:

>Perhaps the wizard seeks a patron from the Shadow World who helps
>them craft the lich`s phylactery, which is then concealed in the SW.

At this time the two work to corrupt the wizards sources with
awnmebhaighl, which the lich will require to continue controlling
the sources. The dark power forges a ley line to the lich`s holdings
>in one or two places, which acts as a portal for the dark power to
>seek to corrupt more life from the daylight world. As the dark power
>goes about with his desired goal of corruption, strange goings on
>occur and undead appear with frequency. To the learned, this heralds
>the arrival of a lich. So while the wizard is now a lich, those most
>interested in their destruction are alerted to their corruption and
>the ally who helped (and was neccesary for the process) acts as a
>kind of beacon corrupting and creating mayhem.

Im liking the BR-specific aspects of this rationale quite a bit. It seems to compare in some ways to the Magians and the Ravens backgrounds... and it stands on its own. Itd be interesting if a BR
lich was tied to a particular province because thats where the source manifestation of his SW ley line.... Perhaps that ley line is through a gate into the SW from which the lich can draw allies.... As a domain level random event, the lich could try to create a ley line into a regents province so it could travel there
and wreak havoc. (A Great Captain meets the Magical Event.) There`s
about seventy-five domain level and adventure level hooks in there…

I think the big picture of this whole thing, though, is that such a
character should have some sort of exceptional rationale to explain
his presence in the BR setting. Aside from the value of creating
unique and interesting characters/adventures, just having a standard,
D&D lich in the setting without some sort of rationale could wind up
being problematic.

For lack of a better term, Im going to call this Robocop Syndrome. Its all well and good to create a character for a
one-shot adventure (or movie) but once things progress beyond that
one-shot adventure (or movie) we need some sort of way to prevent
things from getting out of control. In the not-so-good sequels to
the Robocop movies they had to come up with a reason why every police
officer who dies on duty in Old Detroit didnt get turned into another mecha-cyborg. The city could have had a dozen Robocopies if the sequel was set just a few months later. They justified the one by saying every other time they tried it the subject went crazy and shutdown or suicided, so there was something special going on in our title characters psyche to keep him alive and patrolling when other
cop brains couldn`t stand the transition.

So to avoid the undead equivalent of Robocop Syndrome, one should ask
why arent there dozens of undead scions running around if its
possible at all. There are a lot of interesting ways to do that, and
I think it`s a fairly simple way of maintaining, even working with,
the existing BR dynamics in a way that adds to the gaming experience.

Gary