Discussion thread for [Caliedhe Dosiere](http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Caliedhe Dosiere). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
What is up with the Chamberlain? He has the same CR as the Gorgon.
There is the perennial question about is he immortal, and with a CR of 28, the answer is absolutely yes. And apparently, he faces danger and gains experience as often as the war fighting, scion slaying Gorgon.
Of course if this is true, he is, for all intents and purposes, the Gorgon. Both seek to prevent a reconstitution of the Empire, and the Chamberlain is probabaly the more successful.
I have been adding southern coast regents, mostly 5th level, adding to the group I described a little while ago, where the curve was highest at 6th level. Whether the Chamberlain is CR 28, or just 22, he’s ridiculously over powered for a normal life-span human, and must either have a more normal number of levels, or be immortal (and presumably spent a lot of time fighting during the Empire).
If he’s immortal, I suspect he knowingly encouraged Micheal Roele to his death.
I prefer a mortal Chamberlain, and thus a less powerful one. However, equally interesting, in my opinion, would be to have the original Chamberlain (Roele’s standard bearer) be immortal and act sort of like the immortal hierophant druids of 2e. He’d wander the world and would guide his descendants at critical junctures, aiding the Empire occasionally. He still wouldn’t be nearly as powerful as the Gorgon, not quite so even as Rhuobhe.
Of course, I like a similar idea for a reconstituted Empire. Whoever is strong enough to reunite the Empire, or one of his next few heirs, inherits Great Long Life and, while still leaving the Throne to an heir, goes off wandering Cerilia, still growing his bloodline. Eventually you could get several long-lived former emperors wandering the land. This is about the only way that the powerful awnsheghlien (the Spider, Rhuobhe, the Gorgon, the Magian, the other Lost, etc) could ever be defeated. And then you’ve got other continents and the Shadow World to deal with.
BR does seem to split between low-mid level NPC’s and a few high level awnies/elves with not much in-between. The chamberlain was a split class in 2e which pushed him up the power in 3e considerably, although he was very powerful even in 2e (L12 fighter, L16 diviner), I’d say conversion to 3e should put him at around CR20 or so - not higher, the fighter levels should evaporate / become noble or scion levels instead leaving him, say, diviner 16/scion 2/noble 2 - and I’d seriously consider cutting down a few diviner levels, particularly if moving to a spell-point system that avoided the maximum spell level drop from non-mage class levels.
If he is immortal, or at least very long lived, then either he is some evil nemesis who undermined and eventually destroyed the emperors (clearly Ken’s view and great if you want a political foe) or given his apparent impotence in modern centuries, has some deep seated belief that he is unable / unworthy to rule.
In the ‘tired old man’ view of the chamberlain, his levels would reflect very slow accretion of power (similar to gains of the elves) rather than regular heroics - at high level given the CR of most threats, it is only the ‘once or twice a generation threats’ which actually provide xp anyway so regular heroics are unnecessary.
I’d consider the current brcs view to be the ‘high level version’ of the chamberlain, if using him I’d have him sworn to Roele never to seek to rule himself - but ever seeking a ‘true heir’ that could restore the empire he promised his long lost first emperor to preserve.
Angelica made a good suggestion for multi- or dual- classed characters for my Pbem game, so this is how I handle such things:
Highest level plus half (round down) second class*, equals class level
[* or other levels, should there be any other classes]
So under 3.x, the following would be (with examples following):
Caliedhe: 16/12= 16+6= 22; eg. Noble6/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight 9/Archmage2
Fhileraene: 7/7= 7+3= 10; eg. Ftr2/Wiz6/Abjurant Champion2
Grimm Graybeard: 8/7= 8+3= 11; eg. Ftr4/Clr7
Rhuobhe: 16/15= 16+7= 23; eg. Ftr2/Wiz6/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight5/Awn5.
Hap Prechlen Thelma est Chauchen: 15/13= 15+6= 21; eg. Clr5/Wiz3/Mystic Theurge10/Ehr3, or for more of a druid bent, Drd5/Wiz3/Arcane Heirophant10/Ehr3
[Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage; Arcane Heirophant is from Races of the Wild]
ericthecleric, that is the official conversion solution, and why I specifically mentioned a CR 22 Chamberlain:
Whether the Chamberlain is CR 28, or just 22, he’s ridiculously over powered for a normal life-span human
But if everyone else is 5th or 6th level, 22 or 28 are both fantastically huge.
This reminded me of a fantasy TV series named Roar, with Heath Ledger. Setting is pre-medieval and there was a Roman soldier who slew Christ on the cross with a spear. He was condemned to live as an immortal and could not be killed. I don’t remember how or did they eventually kill him, maybe with his spear.
Similar can work for the chamberlain.
So you’re suggesting that encounters with a dying god might explain unusual powers in the game context?
The question at hand is not, how would we explain a Chamberlain with Long Life, after all he may well have experience with a dying god, Anduiras in this case, and may have unusual powers from that source.
The question at hand is, do we want a character of this level (28, 22, or otherwise off the scale) mixing with the more typical 5th and 6th level character of the setting? Doing so has incredible implications. Or do we make the character a more normal character, say a strong 7th level?
Anyone remember “Amber - Diceless Roleplaying”? Probably not. Anyway, this thread reminded me of that excellent setting. It had several versions of important NPCs…some less powerfull then others…perhaps something similar could work here?
- Mortal Chamberlain - Reasonable CR, give him som noble levels and some wizard levels.
- Immortal Chamberlain - High CR (but NOT 28!!!)
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 8:32 AM, kgauck <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> The question at hand is, do we want a character of this
> level (28, 22, or otherwise off the scale) mixing with the
> more typical 5th and 6th level character of the setting?
> Doing so has incredible implications. Or do we make the
> character a more normal character, say a strong 7th level?
From a setting-design perspective, I think its clear that the chamberlain was originally made high-level so that hed be an NPC the
PCs couldnt just push around. He has no army and no real holdings, but he has both diplomatic and personal power. And lets face it, any
number of gamers would think to themselves, "So theres one guy who has the crown of the empire sitting around? We should just make him give it to us." Thus, a disproportionately-leveled chamberlain- its
a flag to the GM that he can`t just be browbeaten by the players.
If youre the kind of GM who doesnt need that, fine, but I think it`s
a perfectly good default for the setting.
–
Daniel McSorley
I agree that making him powerful prevents him from being pushed around, but its a terrible design approach. The thing he protects is a domain level thing, investing the city of Anuire, but they solved this “problem” with a character power level fix.
He is effectively designed like an awnshegh, and frankly, he acts like one too. Only Awnies have those kinds of character levels, only awnies protect otherwise indefensible places with their personal character levels. The awnies function to prevent easy reconstitution of the Empire.
If preserving the independence is a political problem, make the cost of taking the city illegal, tyrannical, and opposed to everything the Empire, Roele, and Haelyn stand for. Make the defense of the city political, so that the cost is political, no one would support such an action for it would be the sure sign of a tyrannt.
If preserving the independence is a domain problem, make it clear that every realm will will spend the necessary RP (and are fed RP by domains that don’t have holdings) so that no one can invest the city, and no one can remove the holdings of other guys.
Do both.
The worst thing to do is just put a guy with a gazzilion xp in the Imperial City because 1) He’s as powerful as otherwise immortal characters, and this suggests he is immortal two, something already hinted at, but if has all this power and all this time, what has he done to acquire this experience? How does he use this power? If he stands for the Empire, why does he do nothing constructive? Why does he only seek to thwart others? Does he imagine men were better in the past, that no one has been worthy these past 500 years?
But 2), he he’s not immortal, he breaks all the rules about character level that seems to apply to everyone else in the setting and most egregiously the elves.
This design choice seems to ignore the fact that there is domain system perfectly capable of defending the city of Anuire.
We have an Imperial Legion, one of the best units among the warcards.
The Chamberlain can have a boat load of RP in reserve to oppose any contest actions or attempts at investiture.
If we absolutely need a mcguffin to protect Anuire because we’re afraid that DM’s won’t think of using politics or the domain system, make investiture impossible without the cooperation of the Chamberlain, because of the Imperial regalia, the protections and wards used during the Empire to protect the succession.
Making the Chamberlain a 28th level character for this purpose is the worst of all the possible solutions (except making the Imperial City a flying city defended by ninja gnomes).
They (the ninja gnomes that is) should be epic level too!
He’s absolutely right, and this not only applies to the IC and the Chmaberlain…any NPC that has radically more personal power than the norm should be given careful consideration…and then put in the Great Archive that is the waste bin. Frankly I find the concept of Über-NPCs very boring and counterproductive.
But that said, if someone wants to make an alternate immortal Elminster-like figure, go right ahead…
I do agree that CR 28 is probably a bit too high, but that is typical of any duel class from the 2nd edition. 22 makes more sense but that still leaves him rather high. CR 20 I wouldn’t have a problem with or slightly lower.
There are powerful NPC’s out there and to just remove all of them except for the bad guys is a bit unrealistic. Humans have always been described as quick to breed and quick to die but have an unbelievable ability to grow in strength in a short time frame. Not all humans grow that power so quickly, but some can.
As for history we really don’t know what Caliedhe Dosiere has done with much of his time. Certain things hint that he is long lived and his levels would match that. With all of those fighter levels I would assume he has had some experience with war or combat. Probably the early part of his life and the magic later on.
With second edition there was no noble class or any other alternate way to make a character powerful without actually giving him levels. We had bloodline but if he only had a strong bloodline he probably could have been bullied out his position a long time ago. Giving him Diviner levels gives him an air of knowing what you are going to do before you do it.
Making him a lower level would erode much of his power in the Imperial City. It would make him susceptible to assassination and he would become a non-factor in armies as either a leader or a powerful adventurer to help. I think he was intended to be one of the most powerful humans in the world, for whatever reason.
-BB
My own guide would be that the Chamberlain is no more powerful than the best Anuireans. While its not comprehensive, let’s look at the other portrait figures at the back of Ruins.
Aeric Boeruine 12
Darien Avan 9
Shaemes Lavalier 7
Teodor Profiev 8
Kalien 5
The Wizard 10
Nadia Vasily 8
Kalila Bint Daouda 5
So I’d say the top is in the 10-12 area. And that still begs for explanation of where these xp came from. Long life, or busy adventuring?
But what strikes me most about the comments of bbeau22 is that most of these concerns can be answered with a domain. Kalien doesn’t need to be more than 5th level, and I’m pretty sure he has a long enemies list. El-Hadid is 3rd level. But certainly these men can hire the best bodyguards, pay for the best magical defenses. They don’t need to have personal power. They have organizational power. If Caliedhe Dosiere has high levels to avoid assassins , then there must be really high level assassins. But I really don’t even see levels as a defense against assassination. It just makes the attempt more expensive. Likewise having divination to protect you: Why does Caliedhe need them himself? He can’t have one who is loyal to him give him information? The College of Sorcery doesn’t warn him of anything? The notion that the power of the Chamberlain is only his own personal power and not his domain, followers, equipment, wealth, regency, loyalty, ideas of Empire seems to forget exactly what setting we are playing.
El-Hadid makes more sense as a 3rd level guilder, and Kalien as 5th level, than Caliedhe does as anything much beyond 10th level.
I had a big long response but I deleted it. Too wordy.
It comes down to … if he has long life then we can make him that level very easy. There are hints of that in some of the writing I think.
I know the limitations of Anuire for levels but other lands do have much higher level people. Khanisi has the White Sorceress which is level 17 and a buch of level 10-12 level people. There is no reason why he can’t be on par with people from other realms.
I agree that level 28 or 22 is probably a bit too high. Bringing him down to level 15-17 makes sense as a duel class.
Second edition didn’t have many ways to be more powerful than other regent other than bloodline. If he was a real high level then he would probably have a great bluff check, diplomacy, sense motive. For some reason I always saw him being the master of those types of skills.
-BB
At 04:58 PM 8/22/2008, bbeau22 wrote:
>I had a big long response but I deleted it. Too wordy.
I had one too, but then my email software crapped out on me… I`m
starting to suspect the powers of the Chamberlain go beyond the world
of Aebrynis.
It comes down to … if he has long life then we can make him that
level very easy. There are hints of that in some of the writing I think.
The big problem with the Chamberlain is the same problem that we have
with several of the awnsheghlien. That is, their immortality runs
right up against the game mechanics of D&D. There has been lots of
debate in the past about the relationship of time to
experience. Some folks argue that there is no meaningful
relationship between the two at all; one does not gain experience
during the course of “normal” life. Others argue that over the
course of time individuals will, inevitably, have the kind of
encounters for which PCs are expected to be awarded XP.
Personally, I fall down on the side of aging having a relationship
with experience, but thats because we dont really have a mechanic
to express the function of aging other than experience. There are a
few games that express aging in ways other than the experience
mechanic. So Im thinking the problem isnt really with age to
experience, but with the iteration of the Long Life blood
ability. If we have some sense of how aging might effect characters
other than through experience then maybe we`d have a better way of
reflecting how a character like the Chamberlain (or elves, or the
Gorgon, or the Spider, etc.) might be portrayed.
Off the cuff, I`m thinking the effects of immortality might be reflected in:
-
Bonuses to ability scores. Imagine if you could exercise without
the negative effects of aging for, say, a century–it`d make steroids
look like vitamins. Bonuses to int and wisdom have been a standard
concept of D&D since 1e. -
Skill bonuses, particular to thinks that have a “knowledge” base.
-
Bonus feats, perhaps with a pool from which they can be
chosen. Characters gain feats on a regular basis, which might be
compared to the aging/experience process itself. -
Some sort of accumulated “wealth” concept. The number and type of
magic items available to characters is normally carefully monitored,
but if one has a few centuries to collect such things its clear that one would have more time to collect.... We dont need a system of
banking or anything to understand the idea of piling up wealth over
time. (Though if one did have banking itd make the process all the more obvious. In a super-hero campaign setting I played in characters went back in time. They deposited some money into a bank account and then travelled back to their time. Compounded interest and a time machine. Thats making money the new fashioned way…)
Doing something like this, based on the actual age of the character,
could reflect their age without actually jumping into the issue of
XP, which several folks are against.
Gary
I agree, but as I have said before and will undoubtedly say again, that’s not the point.
The question is, is it the best way to represent the Chamberlain? I know what we can do, but what ought we to do?
I know the limitations of Anuire for levels but other lands do have much higher level people.
I am rather more inclined to the notion put forth by Green Knight, that they should all be under scrutiny, and many should be revised.
I agree that level 28 or 22 is probably a bit too high. Bringing him down to level 15-17 makes sense as a duel class.
Where did you come up with 15-17? Is this just a number pulled from a hat? Why is this the right number?
Second edition didn’t have many ways to be more powerful than other regent other than bloodline.
What has 3rd edition added that 2nd edition didn’t have? Gold? Magic items? Other equipment, including fortifications? RP?
If he was a real high level then he would probably have a great bluff check, diplomacy, sense motive. For some reason I always saw him being the master of those types of skills.
I take this to mean that 3rd edition has added an articulate skill system, so that a character can be good at bluffing, diplomacy, and sensing motives, while 2nd edition had a binary system in which you either had a proficiency, or you didn’t.
If that is the case, the only reason to make him 15th to 17th levels (and I have to guess because you got stingy on the words) is because a fighter/diviner has needs high levels to have enough skill points? Because the more obvious alternative is to make him an 8th level Rogue optimized for lying, persuading, and perceiving the lies of others.
Right before we switched to Birthright, I had a DM who rolled everything at random. We start a new campaign as 1st level characters, leave town and encounter bandits. We kill them and he rolls their treasure randomly. He rolled a spelljammer ship and other assorted goodies. He had a whole adventure planned out or us. We knew where we were going, but getting there was supposed to be challenge. Well, with a randomly rolled spelljamming ship it wasn’t. We flew to our destination, undisturbed (because the dice never resulted in much) and arrived to complete our quest. It was a fine romp when we did it, but the moment we left the gaming table, we all experienced a sensation like eating too much cake. It seemed nice at the time, but it wasn’t very satisfying on reflection.
We ditched that campaign after that one adventure and the DM pulled out Birthright. A boxed set he was interested in trying. The rules said (page 32) that a regent gets a choice of rolling for a random magical item usable by his class. Well, you can see where this is going. My wizard of the Erebannien got a barrel of ever-full grog. The player who had the Thane of Baruk-Azhik got a +5 battle axe with a special function. What is a wizard going to do with a barrel of grog? Let along one that magically re-fills? I gave to the dwarves of Baruk-Azhik as a gift. After character creation, the DM decided he didn’t want to DM Birthright and offered to sell me the boxed set and the two PS’s he had bought. I purchased them.
The thing I resolved never to do, was to run a game where stuff didn’t make sense. I wasn’t changing my style of play, I was acknowledging to myself that I valued a world that made sense more than anything else. One of the ways I deal with this is to consider the world from the NPC’s point of view. If I were a 16th level Caliedhe Dosiere, what would I do? I can read the sections on the character for some guidance, talk to others with a good mind for this kind of thing, but he certainly won’t just sit quietly reading poetry until the PC’s knock on his door.
As I read his character description, he disapproves of regents and thwarts their efforts to win the Iron Throne. And as a 16th level character, he can thwart the players. No question about that. Now I ask, what fun is that? The DM has an NPC at 16th level who thinks its his job to give you grief. And you’re 6th level. Sounds like pure frustration.
A proper adversary for players should be a level or two above them, gaining levels as they do. Not five times their power level. So I have to ask, what is this character going to do with his power, because laying in wait doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Other decisions that are made about him also have consequences. And each of these needs to make sense for the character. Just plopping down occasional super-high level characters (multiples of times more powerful than nearly everyone else in the setting) strikes me as really bizarre. It strikes me as bizarre as a bunch of bandits defeated by a party of 1st level characters who have a spelljammer ship.
I take this to mean that 3rd edition has added an articulate skill system, so that a character can be good at bluffing, diplomacy, and sensing motives, while 2nd edition had a binary system in which you either had a proficiency, or you didn’t.
Yes the skill based system typically means that someone of a higher level will be better at certain skills because simply they would have more skills points to spend.
If that is the case, the only reason to make him 15th to 17th levels (and I have to guess because you got stingy on the words) is because a fighter/diviner has needs high levels to have enough skill points? Because the more obvious alternative is to make him an 8th level Rogue optimized for lying, persuading, and perceiving the lies of others.
Well the thing is he isn’t a rogue optimized for lying, persuading and perceiving the lies of others. He is a warrior/diviner. How can we take that class combination and make it work with the type of personality he has.
Right before we switched to Birthright, I had a DM who rolled everything at random. We start a new campaign as 1st level characters, leave town and encounter bandits. We kill them and he rolls their treasure randomly. He rolled a spelljammer ship and other assorted goodies. He had a whole adventure planned out or us. We knew where we were going, but getting there was supposed to be challenge. Well, with a randomly rolled spelljamming ship it wasn’t. We flew to our destination, undisturbed (because the dice never resulted in much) and arrived to complete our quest. It was a fine romp when we did it, but the moment we left the gaming table, we all experienced a sensation like eating too much cake. It seemed nice at the time, but it wasn’t very satisfying on reflection.
We ditched that campaign after that one adventure and the DM pulled out Birthright. A boxed set he was interested in trying. The rules said (page 32) that a regent gets a choice of rolling for a random magical item usable by his class. Well, you can see where this is going. My wizard of the Erebannien got a barrel of ever-full grog. The player who had the Thane of Baruk-Azhik got a +5 battle axe with a special function. What is a wizard going to do with a barrel of grog? Let along one that magically re-fills? I gave to the dwarves of Baruk-Azhik as a gift. After character creation, the DM decided he didn’t want to DM Birthright and offered to sell me the boxed set and the two PS’s he had bought. I purchased them.
The thing I resolved never to do, was to run a game where stuff didn’t make sense. I wasn’t changing my style of play, I was acknowledging to myself that I valued a world that made sense more than anything else. One of the ways I deal with this is to consider the world from the NPC’s point of view. If I were a 16th level Caliedhe Dosiere, what would I do? I can read the sections on the character for some guidance, talk to others with a good mind for this kind of thing, but he certainly won’t just sit quietly reading poetry until the PC’s knock on his door.
This is a bit of a stretch. I am not saying Dosiere should fly around Anuire on a spelljammer ship imposing his will on all the other rulers. Although that would be awful funny looking. What would be the stats on that flying ship?
Anyway we are talking about levels and what makes sense. I agree that his level is certainly too high using the standard calculations. The question is what level would be ok. I didn’t pull any numbers out of a hat. I took the most power level of another character in another part of the world and made his level about equal that. Now if you feel that there shouldn’t be any NPC’s above level 12 well then that is a completely different story and would certainly be a campaign over-haul.
As I read his character description, he disapproves of regents and thwarts their efforts to win the Iron Throne. And as a 16th level character, he can thwart the players. No question about that. Now I ask, what fun is that? The DM has an NPC at 16th level who thinks its his job to give you grief. And you’re 6th level. Sounds like pure frustration.
A proper adversary for players should be a level or two above them, gaining levels as they do. Not five times their power level. So I have to ask, what is this character going to do with his power, because laying in wait doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Ultimately this logic doesn’t work as well because of the range of levels for all of the different regents. By this logic he should be two levels higher than the highest other regent. Since Aeric Boeruine is level 12 then Dosiere should be level 14? Then the same issue remains if characters start at level 3 or 4 then he is still out of reach and over powering the PC’s. If he is created any lower than that then he would be at a disadvatage to the other regents out to remove him from power. Avan would have certainly been able to erode his power and clain the Imperial City for himself by now.
Other decisions that are made about him also have consequences. And each of these needs to make sense for the character. Just plopping down occasional super-high level characters (multiples of times more powerful than nearly everyone else in the setting) strikes me as really bizarre. It strikes me as bizarre as a bunch of bandits defeated by a party of 1st level characters who have a spelljammer ship.
There are some other things at play. 2nd edition leveling was overly difficult once you reach level 9-10. I think I remember playing the same character for over two years and only gaining 1 level. 3rd edition has set a system for giving experience that gives levels far more freely. You can keep all characters the same levels as they were in 2nd edition, but PC might pass those levels very quickly … unless you give almost not experience from session to session, which I think some players find not fun.
-BB
I find a lot to object to, but the crux of the matter here, I think is this. What level you are has no bearing on the domain system. Certainly not in 2nd edition. In terms of his position in the Imperial City he could be a 1st level commoner with skills in leather crafting and he’s no weaker than the 28th level monstrosity he is in Ruins.
So AFAIC, his position in the Imperial City has nothing what so ever to do with how many levels he should have. Not for the Chamberlain or any other regent.
If I remember my 2ed –> 3ed conversion rules correctly, then it was “Take highest level and then add 1/3 of remaining levels, rounding down”. That would make the Chamberlain a 20th level character WITH a powerful bloodline. To preserve his spellcasting abilities would mean making him a Noble 4/Wizard [Diviner] 16.
Side note: Wasn’t the Gorgon Ftr 25/Wiz 16 (arguably) in 2E? Would make him a 30th level character. Probably most easily created using a Ftr/Wiz/Eldricht Knight combo…
Personally I find that a bit high - it certainly is THE most powerful character in Anuire. But if he really IS the most powerful character around, we need to know WHY.
A) If he’s mortal then he must have done some SERIOUS adventuring in his youth. And we don’t have him renowned as this big adventurer in Anuire at least. Could perhaps be explained with mighty adventures elsewhere - Aduria for example - and with a hidden identity. I can accept that NPC can gain SOME levels due to old age, even if not adventuring (think using the Ply Trade or Training action to gain a bit of experience). But then we’re taking a few levels over the course of a long life…not 20 levels!
B) If he’s immortal or VERY long lived (Great Long Life perhaps?) then the level things is not a problem. Then he can be really high level. But this begs a lot of explanation. What does he do with his time. What is his role in the political tapestry of Anuire? I personally don’t like this version, and don’t use it…age and mortality are so very HUMAN…and removing them makes the Chamberlain into a human-looking monster. Not my cup of tea.
But in this case I can well see the need for two versions to cater to different tastes.
Btw: I’ve used the Chamberlain as an NPC in several adventures, and he even got killed in one of them. This was using 2E so he was dual-classed. Point is that despite his high level he wasn’t so tough in a fight. As an old man his physical stats were poor and he weren’t unarmored and lightly armed and most of his spells were of the divination type…the lower level PC ended up using a lot of energy protecting him.