At 11:44 AM 3/25/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:
>
>I think I like the Scion classes even less than the 7th ability score.
> >Maybe Im old and grey, but Id still greately favor a system for
> >bloodlines that were more like the 2E one.
>
> When it comes to portraying bloodline I`ve come to the conclusion that most
of the actual mathematical values should just remain what they were to
begin with. Certain things need to be updated or revised (a couple tables,
for example, and the blood abilities themselves cry out for revision) but
there`s really no need to portray bloodline as a character class (a la
> Savage Species) in order to do so.
>
> I guess you didn`t really pay attention to that link I supplied at the
WotC` site or how UA is written. Sorry for sounding obnoxious and
> condescending here, no offense is intended. Really I mean I don`t want
to sound that way but its hard to get around people not quite seeing the
obvious trend at WotC. But the new “official” WotC standard
for expressing level adjustments is to use a class based system. Now, if
people don`t think that there should be level adjustments involved with
> bloodlines that is an entirely new arguement - especialy since in the
> past most people were in favor of some kind of level adjustment (people
> just couldn`t agree on the type).
Ive paid attention to those things. In fact, Ive gone out of my way to
say that SS is a very good text and I like things are based on it. (Please
take these comments in the same spirit you noted above, BTW.) It is
obvious that D20 is making level adjustments using a class based system in
D20 or, at least, in D&D–I`ve seen a lot less in other D20 products,
though the logic works the same, and it would seem like what`s good for the
magic good would be good for the mutated/genetically engineered one as
well… I generally like that trend since it seems to make a lot of
sense, coincides with the level-based system, and has nice round numbers
associated with it. It seems to assume that “a level is a level” and that
ECL and CR are balanced systems, which isn`t necessarily the case, but
thats really a core D&D rules issue, not a BR one. I just dont find
ECL/class levels particularly compelling as a system for portraying
bloodline for all that it is the au currant method of doing things in D&D.
When it comes to an ECL for bloodline, I think the heart of the matter
isn`t really ECL vs. no ECL in an update. The argument is whether
bloodline should be accounted for or not with some folks suggesting that
bloodline shouldnt factor in at all because it didnt in 2e. ECL is just
the most obvious method of accounting for character level affects. It is
not, however, necessarily the right one for bloodline.
It doesn`t necessarily follow that either bloodline merits a level
adjustment or that even with the current trend towards portraying level
adjustments in D&D that means bloodline is apt for portraying them. What`s
less obvious is that bloodline should not be adjudicated using a level
adjustment at all. I suggested a couple of weeks ago (and Falcon did
several months back) that bloodline should just be factored into a
character inventory and used to determine things like CR. There are a lot
more similarities when it gets right down to it between bloodline and
equipment than there are between bloodline and a level adjustment as
portrayed in the original materials, so accounting for bloodline by
assigning it a gp value and then equating it to inventory is probably a
better way to go. In any case, thats what Im doing. When I get it all
written up (along with the update to the BP system of portraying bloodline)
I`ll put it up someplace and people can have a look.
> The other reason that a scion class level system works is that it makes
> things easier to port into an adventure-based or domain based campaign
> system, where the things that contibute to a level adjustment don`t all
come into consideration.
I also think that the Highlander-style elements should go dig a
hole, hid
in it and never show its ugly head again.
Well, I wouldnt stick em in a hole, but I don`t care for the exploding
> scion system either. It`s too weird, too different from the original ideas
presented in the BR system and just seems like something that is
unnecessary. Coming up with a method to portray being stabbed in the heart
is difficult in D&D, but having scions blow up and disperse their
bloodline
in a blast radius isn`t the way to go.
>
>
> Actually the scion doesn`t “explode”, that was never written
in any version of Chap 2 nor in the Book of Doom , which had the
concept first presented. What happens is that his regency or divine
essence is released. One thing I found good about this system was that
it reproduced in a minor way what happened at Deismaar. I`m surprised
> you hadn`t recognized the similarities.
The inspiration for the idea is pretty obvious. So obvious, in fact, that
I think it`s gone pretty much without saying since the first playtest was
released. The thing is… whats it got to do with anything? (Im still
trying not to be obnoxious here, but I`ve got to express how much I dislike
some of these changes.) Fundamentally, it looks to me to be one of the
folks on design teams (Dooms?) house rules–or it at least smacks of that
kind of thing. House rules are all well and good, but they are not
something that should be in the update of the setting. If it were
presented as somebody`s house rules in a post on the subject or alternate
download then Id find it interesting and maybe Id incorporate an aspect
or two of them into my own house rules, but that`s a far cry from
disseminating it as the official product. The official update shouldn`t be
used as a vehicle for anybody`s individual take on the setting, but should
be as direct a translation of the original material into a new rules set as
possible with as little extrapolation, elaboration or addition as possible.
Some things absolutely cry out to be added to. An actual method for
stabbing someone in the heart in 3e would be a a good addition, for
instance. But that`s one of those things that would have been nice in 2e
in the first place–which might be a good guideline for deciding what
should get added to in an update and what shouldn`t. To wit: "Should it
have been in the original materials?" The way bloodline gets transferred
just isn`t one of the things that needs to be further elaborated upon. The
methods in the original material not only covered it adequately, but also
coincided to several themes that, I`d suggest, this method in the proposed
Ch 2 either doesn`t recognize or ignores.
First of all, I feel obliged to note that you can have it both ways and say
that when a scion is killed he doesn`t explode, his "divine essence is
released" AND say that`s based on the what happened at Deismaar, since what
happened at Deismaar was an explosion. If it`s based on a scion-level
version of the battle of Deismaar “releasing essence” and exploding is a
rather semantic dance that is a bit out of step with the music. Sure, the
scion doesn`t actually, physically explode in the sense that his body gets
splattered all over the place, but releasing one`s energy in a radius is an
explosion. If you were to replace “RP” with “hit points” it could just as
easily be a hand grenade being described. It`s not much of a leap in the
definition to describe that process as an explosion, and the idea of
exploding scions IMO is rather silly.
Secondly, it makes godly energy both volatile and sticky. Heaven forbid
some scion might go off in a crowded room, splattering everyone with
ectoplasmic energy because not only is he going to explosively "release his
energy" but that energy is going to stick like napalm to those around
him. As has been noted, the process of transferring bloodline to a
commoner is too easy in the suggested system, and makes killing a scion a
jackpot for anybody with a bit of ambition. In practice, I`m pretty
confident that if one were to play a “commoner” campaign in which PCs
started off without bloodlines using the proposed rules any scion that the
PCs came across would be targeted faster than a computer nerd wearing
lipstick in the locker room after the football team has won the homecoming
game. Of course they players would roll the dice to see if they could get
a bloodline out of the encounter. From a player standpoint it`s a no
brainer. It also makes for all kinds of annoying things like commoners
running towards the site of a dying scion in hopes of gaining a bloodline.
Thirdly, I really dislike the change made that presents ALL acts of
bloodtheft as corrupting. One`s bloodline derivation can change with any
act of bloodtheft against any scion who has a derivation different from
that of the thief. This is a fundamental change from the original system
and one that again seems to miss the theme of the setting. ONLY Azrai`s
power is corrupting. All the gods worked in concert to defeat him.
At the core of the matter, however, is that all of that material is new,
extraneous material to both BR and D&D. To a certain extent, of course,
one has to elaborate on either in order to come up with a system that
portrays the original ideas in a new system of rules, but while doing so
why not come up with rules that are actually related to the original BR
material rather than extrapolate upon them in ways that, frankly, would
have been included in the original materials if they had been intended to
work that way.
Gary
) - BRCS-playtest posted for review/playtesting/comments.