Conversion - What about the Gorgon?

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
21

----- Original Message -----
From: “Sir Justine” <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:17 PM

> Sir Justine wrote:
> hum… what`s “AFAIC” :stuck_out_tongue: ?

As Far As I Am Concerned

Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some
> way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.

I dont think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all the An bloodlines in Cerilia, Id then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
20,000 +.

Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. :wink:

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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22

On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
> > a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
> > your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some

way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.

I dont think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all &gt; the An bloodlines in Cerilia, Id then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
> effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
> entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
> myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
> Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
> What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
> third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
> lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
> would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
> a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
> 5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
> 20,000 +.
>
> Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. :wink:

I think its stated somewhere that Raesenes bloodline, 100+, was
sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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23

all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

24

One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars aren’t as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It’s was really possible to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff…).
I mean, all the scale of power is smaller in Birthright, from the npcs to the gods.

25

----- Original Message -----
From: “daniel mcsorley” <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 5:35 PM

> I think its stated somewhere that Raesenes bloodline, 100+, was
> sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
> the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
> al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

How seriously you take that line depends on several things.

  1. How do you regard the idea that gods are just the highest level
    characters in the milieu?
    2)How do you regard assention to godhood.

From my point of view, gods aren`t just really high level characters any
more than I am a very powerful mouse. I view gods as being much closer to
omnipotance than D&D normally does.

marcum uth mather wrote:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level,
> AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more
> scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take
> his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that
> devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my
> carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

Too many readings of the Odyssey prevent me from believeing that Odysseus
was ever going be able to defeat Posideon in any combat. Even the heros of
the golden age, sons of Apollo, Zeus, and other gods, never could have
displaced one of the Olympians. The best they could hope for was that mommy
or daddy would get them turned into a constellation or made into an immortal
(not neccesarily a god, just an immortal who could hang out with the gods).
Herakles was made immortal, what divine actions did he go on to take? How
is this any difference from the hero worship of the dark ages where someone
as mundane as Orestes was venerated?

Sir Justine wrote:
> One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars
> aren`t as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater

gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate
18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It`s was really possible
> to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance
> avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff…).

But what is an avatar? What does it mean to defeat an avatar? Do gods have
meaningful stats? I dont think so. Take strength. Doesnt every god have
the capacity to topple a castle? Some may appear to push it over Samson
style, others will cast bolts from their outstretched hands, still others
will smath the ground with their staff, then the castle falls over. Its a
matter of style not power. Give the us the style information, and we don`t
need stats. Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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26

Daniel McSorley:
> I think its stated somewhere that Raesenes bloodline, 100+,
> was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+

bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

Personally, I think that this is silly.

Sorry, I dont really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and hed then
use that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol Stonebutt isnt exactly stupid afterall.

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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27

Kenneth:
<snip!>
> Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Testify brother!

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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28

marcum uth mather:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th
> level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a
> few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a
> demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god
> and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at
> least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were
> near ANY of this level;)

It is astounding that I can have a view about this that is so different
from your own.

I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t
do it themselves.

To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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29

At 06:56 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>Daniel McSorley:
> > I think its stated somewhere that Raesenes bloodline, 100+,
> > was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> > single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> > him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+

bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

Personally, I think that this is silly.

Sorry, I dont really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I &gt;just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and hed then use
that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol Stonebutt isnt
exactly stupid afterall.

I dont recall it saying anywhere that the Gorgons bloodline was
sufficient for him to become a deity. In fact, I seem to recall the
opposite. A couple of points:

  1. We dont know that the Gorgons bloodline was in the triple digits after
    Deismaar. In fact, it probably wasn`t. Other true bloodlines are lower
    than his, and in certain cases (most notably the Serpent) even those
    characters have made strides towards a divine status.

  2. A bloodline of 100+ is a good place to start in a bid towards
    transcendence. After all, the same energies that made the human inheritors
    of the gods divine power is what created bloodlines. Its the same stuff,
    so wouldnt rising ones bloodline be a way to achieve godhood? A
    bloodline of 100+ seems like a good starting point for certain characters
    who are trying to ascend.

  3. A 100+ bloodline, however, should not be the only requirement for
    transcendence. First of all, the Gorgon is around as powerful as a few
    other D&D characters (Iuz, Elminister) who are described variously as
    demi-gods or rivalling that sort of power, so character levels aren`t
    really a problem for him, but that should be some sort of requirement for a
    mortal.

  4. The humans who became gods at Deismaar took on the exact same aspects of
    the gods that perished, so they didnt have any need to find a role/niche/portfolio or whatever. Any human who transcends is going to have to define his/er place in the pantheon. The Gorgon hasnt really done
    this (neither has the Serpent) though various interpretations could apply.

  5. Tasks. There has to be a series of specific and epic tasks on the path
    to divinity. Ive always liked the idea that Raesenes task was to sit on
    the Iron Throne.

In reference to the Gorgon transcending if he could and then using that
power to lay waste to his enemies, I don`t think that really adds up for
several reasons.

First, the process of transcending for the Gorgon would itself probably
represent laying waste to his enemies. If hes still got enough enemies running around by the time he transcends then the process probably wasnt
as epic as all that.

Second, if the Gorgon could transcend and THEN decided to lay waste to
Cerilia thats the kind of thing that brought the gods together in alliance against Azrai. That would make a pretty interesting epic level campaign hook, but if the Gorgon is so smart that he would transcend as a way to gain the power needed to wipe out his enemies, hed probably have to know
from his own experience that it would line up the gods against him, so he`d
have to not only transcend, but transcend to such a level of divine power
that he could take the rest of the pantheon on as well.

Gary

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30

At 07:01 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
>mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
>deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t

do it themselves.

To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

Its fine to go with this sort of thing and base your play on it. The campaign setting, however, isnt quite so extreme. The current gods, of
course, were extremely high level humans before Deismaar who
transcended. Granted, there was something of a shortcut in the divinity
route, but nonetheless they are transcendent mortals. The major BR gods
are certainly more powerful than mortals, but I think thats rather missing the point being made. Its not whether mortals can take on those gods, but
whether mortals after accomplishing great deeds can eventually take on a
divine creature at the lower end of that scale and become divine himself.

Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Gary

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31

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Nor should they. Nor should anyone. Gods arent just big powerful monsters. They shouldnt really have stats. They just Are. This post seems to indicate that you think gods should be huntable and killable by PCs. That`s a travesty.

I don’t think, gods are killable monsters. It was JUST an example of unkillable creatures!!!

Originally posted by Sir Justine

One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars aren’t as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level.

Yes, in 2nd Edition their Avatars are less powerful than others. Might be because of the low level world and the fact, that most were mortal once…

Originally posted by kgauck

Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other 5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has 20,000 +.

Wow, if a god has a child with a mortal (used to exist sometimes, see Zeus), it must have an incredible bloodline!!!

Ummm, who is Stonebutt??

We seem to have the same opinion in one thing: The gorgon is NO god (may be he tries, but he isn’t actually).

So I think, he IS killable (but you need a 30th level party, I fear).

32

I think the bloodline-points for gods is a wrong concept- gods should not have any bloodline.

the bloodpower is the essence which derivated from the gods.

33

> Ummm, who is Stonebutt??

Stonebutt is a colloquial term for the Gorgon, that is to say the Black Prince Raesene Andu.

It refers to his… er… Stony Butt :wink:

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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34

----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary” <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:27 AM

> Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
> distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
> already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
> other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Not any more than the ability to cast spells, recieve visions (or several
other dooms), or to know secrets of the univserse does. The difference is
based on being the source and the vessel for these powers. Its one thing to
cast spells or emloy a bloodline, its quite another to hand out these
powers.

As for real life mythologies and bloodpowers. I see that whole blood system
as being nothing more than a quantification of, and mechanization of the
beliefs in most pre-modern cultures with states.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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35

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, John Machin wrote:
> > Ummm, who is Stonebutt??
>
> Stonebutt is a colloquial term for the Gorgon, that is to say `the Black

Prince Raesene Andu`.
>
> It refers to his… er… Stony Butt :wink:

Yeah? And what were you doing checking out his Divine Posterior?

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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36

At 09:43 AM 9/2/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
> > distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
> > already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than

other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Not any more than the ability to cast spells, recieve visions (or several
other dooms), or to know secrets of the univserse does. The difference is
based on being the source and the vessel for these powers. Its one thing to
cast spells or emloy a bloodline, its quite another to hand out these
powers.

Bloodline is IMO more significant than those things. For one thing it
grants access to the level at which all of those things (casting spells,
visions/dooms, secrets of the universe) reach a higher order, mostly access
to realm magics. For another, it really does provide a step towards the
nature of divinity. Blood abilities based on the portfolio of the god from
whom the bloodline is derived. Presumably that means the gods all have
powers that are similar to (powered up) versions of the blood abilities, or
that the blood abilities are “powered down” godly abilities. Thats a direct connection to divinity. Theres also the obvious connection with
divinity and spellcasting in BR; divine spells are granted by divine beings
and high magic is accessible only to elves or blooded characters, which
connects even those abilities with divinity. Lastly, the domain level of
play is a step above those

As for real life mythologies and bloodpowers. I see that whole blood
system as being nothing more than a quantification of, and mechanization
of the beliefs in most pre-modern cultures with states.

Well, thats a possible interpretation, but I think there are large and fundamental differences that are significant enough to differentiate the BR bloodline system from that of real life, mythology, or any other campaign setting, for that matter. When it gets right down to it, I dont think the
BR domain rules or bloodline do a very good job at representing the real
world beliefs/systems. Thats largely because they werent meant to model
real world paradigms, but the myth history of the campaign setting which
was itself influenced by several works of fantasy fiction and a couple of
movies.

Gary

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37

At 12:05 PM 9/2/2002 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>Yeah? And what were you doing checking out his Divine Posterior?

Mining?

Gary

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38

Daniel McSorley
> Yeah? And what were you doing checking out his Divine Posterior?

I thought we decided it wasn`t divine :slight_smile:

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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