The Gorgon in 2E was a Ftr25/Wiz16. Converting this to 3E gives him 25+16/2=33 levels. How do you people split this up? Do some keep him as Ftr25/Wiz16 or perhaps as Ftr20/Wiz16?
Ftr20/Wiz13 is the way I’m inclined to do it. Any thoughts?
He should be at least a 15th level wizard; he had 8th level spells in 2e, and that should be retained. All but the most powerful of magics are his to command. I’d put it at 18/15, or even be generous and make it 20/15 - just to make him 20th level.
It will be interesting to see the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods. Might squeeze something from those. I certainly can’t wait to generate some stats for the Cerilian gods.
I don’t like the Gorgon. Particularly the Wizard levels. Why does he need that? He’s already nigh invincible, without them. Give him some prestige class(es) instead.
Orginally posted by Green Knight
The Gorgon in 2E was a Ftr25/Wiz16. Converting this to 3E gives him 25+16/2=33 levels. How do you people split this up? Do some keep him as Ftr25/Wiz16 or perhaps as Ftr20/Wiz16?Ftr20/Wiz13 is the way I’m inclined to do it. Any thoughts?
Well, an OFFICIAL conversion would give him 25+16/3=30 levels, not 33.
If you are to give him 8th level spells, that would make him 15/15, not an option IMO (should be more powerful as a fighter). So, you must either drop the wizard levels, or ‘raise’ his total levels.
Merely a first draft. Never been double checked, even by me. I’m almost to the point whre I can double check my work on awnshgh guide I’m making. It’s a lot harder then I though on some of them. Tell me what you think.
Gorgon
Large-Size 16th/14th-level Fighter/Wizard
Monstrous Humanoid True Awnshegh (Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 30d12 + 160 (346 hps)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Init)
Speed: 20 ft.
AC: 36 (- 1 size, +8 natural armor, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word)
Attacks: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender +41/+36/+31/+26/+21+16
Damage: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender 2d6 +14
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spells: (4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 3, 3, 2)
Gaze Attack: By concentrating for one full round on an opponent, the Gorgon can cause his target to turn to stone (Fortitude save verse DC 27) or cause him to fall dead (Fortitude save verse DC 25). If the victim is within 30 feet the DC is increased by +2. The maximum range the gaze can be delivered is 100 feet.
Kick (Ex): The Gorgon can deliver a powerful kick to those foolish enough to stand behind him. This special kick is delivered as a free action, but it can only be taken once per round. While performing this action the Gorgon gets no dexterity bonus, if applicable. Kick + 27 melee, damage 2d6 +2.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): The Gorgon is proficient, skill focused, and specialized in all known weapons.
Special Qualities:
Damage Reduction 20 / +3, Fast Healing 8, Low-light and Darkvision (60 feet),
Spell Resistance 20, Blood Abilities: Bloodform (Great) Long Life (Great), Berserker’s Blood (Great), Battlewise (Major), Charm Aura (Major), Major Resistance [poison] (Major), Heightened Ability (Minor), Enhanced Sense (Minor), Detect Illusion (Minor), Bloodmark (Minor) No longer visible.
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +17
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 15, Blo 50+
Skills: The Gorgon has many skills considered to be 30+.
Feats: Alertness, Blindfight, Blooded Scion, Battle Magic, Cleave, Combat Casting, Endurance, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical: greatsword, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Sunder, Run, Toughness, Trample, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Still Casting
Challenge Rating: 35
Possessions: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word
A CR of 35 might be a tad high; compare him to a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which arguably has a CR that’s too low.
Am I the only one that noticed that challenge ratings tend to be way too low for most creatures? If you consider the fact that each class level gives 1 point of CR, a human fighter 6 or barbarian 6 would thus be CR 6, but a minotaur, which has about as many hp & attack power, only has a CR of 4. And don’t even get me started on the toughest creatures out there: Solar, with a CR of 19? be serious. Heck, its a wonder why the great wyrms(red, silver & gold in particular) don’t have challenge rating of 35-40…
I really wish someone would have the patience to revamp the CR system.
CR isn’t an exact science. That said, it is clearly based on character levels - i.e. a character of a given level poses a certain level of challenge to a set group of characters of the same levels. The CR system in the MM assumes access to certain resources and a certain level of magic by level; if this is not the case, CRs need adjustment. Facing undead without a cleric is rough, to use the most common example.
As for the specific example you quote, a minotaur against a 6th-level character - the 6th-level character is significantly tougher.
Minotaur: hp 39, AC 14, +9/+4 attack (2d8+4)
Fighter: hp 49, AC 22, +11/+6 attack (1d10+5)
Barbarian: hp 50, AC 18, +11/+6 attack (1d12+4)
Raging Barbarian: hp 62, AC 16, +13/+8 attack (1d12+7)
From those numbers alone, a 6th-level barbarian or fighter would best a standard minotaur. When you also add in the fact that the characters will have some additional magic items and other abilities and feats that the minotaur does not, their versatility increases even more.
Note that for a single character of a given level, a CR of the same level is a much higher EL, making it basically a 50-50 chance for either to survive.
For a barbarian or fighter party, a minotaur might have a higher CR, because they must deal with it on its own terms. For a primarily wizardly party, it might have a lower effective CR. A rogue would have some extra difficulties dealing with minotaurs, due to their immunity to being flat-footed and relatively good listen and spot scores, along with scent.
In general, though, a minotaur doesn’t strike me as much more than a CR of 4, when you compare it to what characters of that level can do - a 4th-level barbarian compares well to a minotaur, as does an intelligently played fighter. Just remember that the equipment these characters possess is a part of their CR as well.
In BR, due to the lower frequency of magical items, strange things happen to CRs at higher levels. A balor would be a greater challenge in BR than most worlds, for instance.
Yes, its true that your average fighter or barbarian of level 6 will beat the minotaur. But even then, unless he’s exceptionally strong or lucky, there’s very little chance of him successfully handling two of them, yet, technically speaking, two minotaurs are worth the same xp-wise as a character of that level. I’d bet my dough on a minotaur facing a single level 4 or 5 character all the way, unless the character is exceptionally strong, that’s for sure.
But, even if we assume that a minotaur is as strong as your average level 4 character, something to which I disagree, but that is pointless to argue on, then comes the following question:
Why in hell is a Minotaur fighter 1 PC treated as a level 9 character(See DMG p. 22) while a Minotaur fighter 1 monster gets treated as a character level 5 CR-wise? Its a bit ridiculous don’t you think?
And I’d like to say that this is an exception that proves the rule, but unfortunately, the Monstrous Manual is riddled with creatures who should have higher CRs, and on the other hand, you have these over-inflated averaged level for PC monsters which kinda makes the whole situation a bit ridiculous, even though I understand it was done on one hand to slow down the PC progression rate at mid-to-high levels, and on the other to disuade them from taking unusual races as characters.
I realize I shouldn’t expect a perfect system, but I was hoping for a little more consistency 
For a fighter-type character, a minotaur probably has a higher effective CR, because the minotaur’s abilities are so close to the fighter’s own, thus leaving the fighter with a minimal advantage. A 6th-level fighter would probably not be able to handle two minotaurs on his own; one of 7th or 8th level might.
Don’t make the mistake of mixing CR and ECL - one is for balancing encounters against a party, the other is for intra-party balance. Let’s quickly examine the minotaur’s stats a bit:
+8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha, Large size (10 foot reach), 6d8 HD, +5 natural armor, +6 BAB, some misc racial bonuses that aren’t insignificant.
At first glance, the minotaur should be at least +6 ECL - anything else would be ludicrous, and would grant a BAB and save progression that is beyond what is normally possible. Further, as a fighter-type, the minotaur gains significant additional bonuses. Assuming a standard spread, its ability scores might look thus:
Str 23, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6. HD 6d8+1d10+21 (58 hp)
Let’s check its further combat potential: Buy weapon focus (greatsword), power attack as feats. Skills doesn’t really matter, though the character has very nice bonuses to very powerful skills.
Now, let’s don a chain shirt, and put on a large shield. That’s +6 AC. Add in the natural armor and the dex bonus, and you get +13 AC, -1 size. AC 22. And he does 2d6+6 damage, at 10’ reach, at an attack bonus of +13/+8 or so.
This doesn’t necessarily look like a 9th-level character … yet. Remember the character’s other abilities, like Scent and natural cunning - essentially, he gets most of the benefits of uncanny dodge for free. Then consider the further minmax potential inherent in such a high natural strength and constitution.
Would such a character have an effectiveness on par with a 9th-level fighter, even though he’s only 1st level? Yes, in most cases. That is as a PC creature, however, and not as a monster. You need to consider the impact that huge strength bonus has over the term of a campaign. It doesn’t matter how many spell-like abilities a balor has if it dies in a single encounter. It does matter if those come into play in every single encounter the PCs ever face. Same thing with the big minotaur strength bonus.
The natural next line of inquiry would be a comparison with ogres, who are even stronger. The big differences: Dexterity penalty, fewer HD, far lower BAB (+3), no extra bonuses (scent, senses, cunning, charge).
The bottom line is: Don’t confuse CR with ECL.
Well i think that inside Doom’s conversion they add the Dexterity bonus to Raesene’s half - plate’s armor bonus.Does the King’s Stopper preserve the Dexterity bonus in the total AC , despite the fact that is considered a half-plate ?
As far as I recall, half-plate has a maximum dex bonus of +0; you could chalk it down to either an error, make it a special property of the armor, or consider it full plate instead.
i think Gorgon must be higher than 30 or 33 levels total.3e charcter re higher level than 2nd edition.(For example Elminster)
25F/18w and one or two low level prestige class will be good i think.He is major villain and MUST be Extraordinry strong
The problem I find when converting the Gorgon is: he has more than 20 levels, which is the maximun the rules admit. Of course there are the epic rules, but I’m not certain if I like they, especially in a more low-fantasy cenario such as Birthright. For pcs I certainly will NOT use then: I mean, do you really need more than 20 levels??? At level 20 an character is over, ultra, hyper, mega strong - a 20 level fighter can destroy an entire army alone! More than this and, IMO, it pass from heroic fantasy to trash. (I know it’s not original to say, but this is one of the motives I don’t like Forgotten)
Maybe for the awsheglien, however I will use the epic rules - (the Gorgon has been around for ~1500 years, more than any human can even dream off). But I’m still deciding.
Orginally posted by Sir Justine
For pcs I certainly will NOT use then: I mean, do you really need more than 20 levels???
You don’t have the epic level handbook, do you? There is ALWAYS something to top 20 HDs. In this book are presented monsters with lots of unknown abilities (something like a displacer beast with initiative +27) and a huge amount of HPs. In front of an aberation with CR 57 even the gorgon looks like a fool!
The gods for example have about 50 to 70 HD, an AC of 69 to 96, ca. 1500 HP and their lowest (of 5) attacks is about +86! You see, a 20 HD character has not the lightest chance against one of them!
Orginally posted by Sir Justine
(I know it’s not original to say, but this is one of the motives I don’t like Forgotten).
In this point you are right. To many high level characters destroy the flair. You are still nothing, if you have “only” 15 HDs. That’s why I don’t like FR too.
Orginally posted by Sir Justine
Maybe for the awsheglien, however I will use the epic rules - (the Gorgon has been around for ~1500 years, more than any human can even dream off).
Here you should be more fair! If you use epic rules for awnsheglien, you should use them for ersheglien, npc’s and pc’s too (By the way, the gorgon isn’t the only creature, that is 1500 years old). Further Cerilia needs a character with more than 20 HDs to get rid of these awnsheglien utterly! To play a character to 20th level ore more might be difficult, but should not be impossible!
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> The gods for example have about 50 to 70 HD, an AC of 69 to 96, ca.
> 1500 HP and their lowest (of 5) attacks is about +86! You see, a 20 HD
> character has not the lightest chance against one of them!
Nor should they. Nor should anyone. Gods arent just big powerful monsters. They shouldnt really have stats. They just Are. This post
seems to indicate that you think gods should be huntable and killable by
PCs. That`s a travesty.
I dont really have a problem with >20th level characters, but calling them Epic is just pompous, or maybe good marketing by WotC. The book of that name is munchkinism run amuck. If your characters are getting to that level, its straightforward to project out the experience table,
which is linear, and BAB, saving throws, feat acquisition etc can be
projected for characters who havent multiclassed into a prestige class or another base class by then. But by 20th level, if the character has a PrC, he has 30 total levels he can gain before you have to start worrying about that (20 original class, 10 new class), and if hes multiclassed, 40
or even hypothetically more.
Leave the Epic level handbook on the shelf, and use it to compensate when
playing in FR, which has been a broken novelized setting from the get-go;
major action takes place in novels featuring non-rules-compliant
characters, and then they try to retcon Elminster et al back into the
rules with things like the ELH. In BR, action happens around the PCs, low
level or not, not the pet characters of TSR/Wizards authors.
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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The good thing about the birthright god are they started out mortal. While they all made the pact not to apear in there mortel, er, imortal flesh it would be easy to see were they would. The Vos gods especialy woudn’t play by the rules and would try to act in person when ever they could( Vos not being known for being subtl) any whay i do think it sould be posible to kill a God. Even in good’old 2ed, if you used planescape rules you could kill a god, though it was hard( realy, realy hard:p ) Lets not forget the serpent, or the mighty gorgon. Two of the most feard beings on the planet. they are constently colecting bloodlines and gaining power. My bet is they want to eventualy gain godhood. Howmuch godly esence did the new gods get to gain divinety? The serpent is already granting spells to his followers. To bring it all back, no matter what level of blood points you have you are going to need exp too. the gorgon and the serpent sould have at lest 30 levels each to work with. If a DM wants to do things right. he awards exp for roleplaying more then hack and slash. Look how much these two guys plot, and for how long, they sould have tons of exp. It sould take a uber champion to ever face these guys, or if your goal is political to be empeor. it sould take at lest someone above 20 to do ether of these things.
I agree that there are very powerful npc’s, like the Gorgon, the Serpent, the Kraken (mama mia, this is invencible!)…
But, as marcum himself said these are, or are at least very close, to gods.
But I think that mortals should not have that level of power. Otherwise, IMO you only get something like this: CR 30 monster for a level 30 party, CR 40 monster for a level 40 party… This is Diablo, not Birthright.
Like in The Lord of the Rings - Aragorn and company are very powerful, but the balrog is simply another level of power…
And, IMO, pcs should be heroes, and as such they must do things against the odds. If they are as powerful as the Gorgon is, it isn’t that special to kill him.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Sir Justine” <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:44 AM
> I agree that there are very powerful npc`s, like the Gorgon, the Serpent,
> the Kraken (mama mia, this is invencible!)…
> But, as marcum himself said these are, or are at least very close, to
gods.
AFAIC, the most powerful abominations are still a long way from the power of
gods.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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hum… what’s “AFAIC” 
?
Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he’s in some way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.