Dragon 315 And Bloodlines

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Benjamin wrote:

> OK, to answer everyone`s questions, the Strengthen Bloodline feat is

not listed as being a general feat, bonus feat, fighter bonusfeat, free

feat or any other type of feat. It`s just a feat. So I would imagine,

> to correct myself from earlier, it can only be taken at normal feat

> levels, not as a fighters bonus feat. But that isnt clear,

It`s perfectly clear. Only if it specifically says a fighter can take it

as a bonus feat, can he do so. If they repeated the same text in EVERY

feat, ie “this feat is not a fighter bonus feat”, THAT would be dumb.

–

Daniel McSorley

The reason its neccesary to connect the dragon to the realm is because

heroic actions are only heroic in relation to those whose defence creates a

bond between hero and populace. An Anuirean king who kills a dragon

harrasing the Gorgon`s Crown could arguably have relieved the Gorgon of a

problem. A Brecht king who sails off to unknown parts of the world and

kills a dragon who was unknown to Cerilians has done something only

theoretical in protecting his people, and possibly something that will incur

draconic retribution. The act of killing the dragon is an act of individual

achievement. Who benefits from the death of the dragon is a required

question when assessing its heroic stature for blood strength. Sure a

dragon has the capacity to destroy 1-3 companies, but where was this threat

and was it considered something beyond remote?

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

----- Original Message -----

From: “Benjamin” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 7:30 AM

> However, killing a cerilian dragon takes near god-like powers, and

> anyone able to do that, IMHO, ought to get a few points out of it!

> That was my only point with that comment.

An easy way to accomplish this mechanically would be to give such creatures

(perhaps any ancient creature) a bloodline, so their death can qualify for

blood theft.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

At 06:27 PM 12/12/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>The reason its neccesary to connect the dragon to the realm is because

>heroic actions are only heroic in relation to those whose defence creates a

>bond between hero and populace.

You can`t get much more definitive of heroic actions than slaying a dragon,

whether the act is related towards the populace or not… In fact,

several of the more memorable and legendary stories of dragon slaying don`t

mention the populace at all, but remain massively heroic acts of epic

proportion. While I do think that the scope of the act makes a

difference–village, town, city, province, etc. per the kind of bonus

outline I suggested–the actual act itself should be the starting point of

such a concept, especially since the idea of accomplishing the heroic deed

is the basis of the idea to begin with.

This is one of the interactions between adventure level events and domain

level effects that is only touched upon in the published materials, but I`d

suggest that having slain a dragon, or performing some other epically

heroic task might at least have the potential to effect the hero`s

bloodline as having committed bloodtheft on a scion with a tainted or even

minor bloodline might. There are indications that this is a theme in a

couple of places in the published materials (most of the effects are

negative, but they could just as easily be used as the basis for positive

awards) from which to derive some guidelines for how to handle this kind of

thing.

>An Anuirean king who kills a dragon

>harrasing the Gorgon`s Crown could arguably have relieved the Gorgon of a

problem. A Brecht king who sails off to unknown parts of the world and

kills a dragon who was unknown to Cerilians has done something only

theoretical in protecting his people, and possibly something that will incur

draconic retribution. The act of killing the dragon is an act of individual

achievement. Who benefits from the death of the dragon is a required

question when assessing its heroic stature for blood strength.

Since we`re talking about a bloodline increase, which is the BR equivalent

of an individual improvement based on heroic/divine qualities, the fact

that slaying a dragon (or something similar) is an individual

accomplishment is really part of the point. If it was a regency award

(which IMO would be possible as well) then the fact that the act is

individual vs. domain level might make some sense, and the issue of saving

the village by slaying the dragon might be more pertinent, but in this case

its the individuals reward for an individuals action. Most often the

individual rewards are in XP for 3e/3.5, but in the context of a BR

campaign in which bloodlines figure so prominently (and in the absence of a

system of reputation or fame) the reward for accomplishing epic campaign

themes should probably be represented in the bloodline system.

It would make sense, I guess, if one was going to have a system of

circumstantial bonuses for the size of the realm, that there could be

penalties to the same system… -1 for slaying a dragon that harasses

enemy forces, -2 for slaying a dragon in the employ of a noble

kingdom… Amongst events that are pretty unlikely to come up in the

first place I think it`d be pretty unusual for such a thing to happen, and

it would probably make more as much sense for a DM to ad hoc that aspect of

the situation as the context requires.

Sure a dragon has the capacity to destroy 1-3 companies, but where was

this threat

and was it considered something beyond remote?

Other than to the 200-600 people in the companies, their supporting

infrastructure, extended families? I think that`s likely as many or more

people than the “village” being discussed in the first place, so if raw

impact upon the population is a factor then the threat is at least as

remote or immediate as it would be for the hamlet-sized impact…

Having said that, I don`t think that the requirement is that the threat has

to be immediate. It`s that the act is epic, not that danger is looming

that is significant. Sure, looming might be taken into consideration as a

factor in the accomplishment (along withe the size of a population rescued)

but its still not the core event that should trigger the reward. The

Gorgon may not be an immediate threat to anyone–it`s been quite a while

since he rampaged–but someone who slew the Gorgon would reap huge

political and popular clout. If he slew the Gorgon while on one of his

periodic “harvests” of nearby scions then that`d probably be much more

significant, but it is still a factor in the event, not the determinate of

its significance that should be the primary consideration.

In any case, heroic deeds need not necessarily represent only those that

are performed in response to some outside threat. Slaying dragons can be

done proactively, and is an epic event whether the dragon is minding its

own business laying about on his horde (Sigmund) or chewing its way through

the countryside (St. George.) It might not be as rewarding as actually

saving a princess from the dragon`s clutches, but it still merits a reward

of the type being suggested.

Gary

Gary schrieb:

> At 06:27 PM 12/12/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>> The reason its neccesary to connect the dragon to the realm is because

>> heroic actions are only heroic in relation to those whose defence

>> creates a

>> bond between hero and populace.

>

> You can`t get much more definitive of heroic actions than slaying a dragon,

whether the act is related towards the populace or not… In fact,

several of the more memorable and legendary stories of dragon slaying don`t

> mention the populace at all, but remain massively heroic acts of epic

> proportion. While I do think that the scope of the act makes a

> difference–village, town, city, province, etc. per the kind of bonus

> outline I suggested–the actual act itself should be the starting point of

> such a concept, especially since the idea of accomplishing the heroic deed

> is the basis of the idea to begin with.

A story which is quite contrary to the act of dragonslaying as a heroic

act for the purpose of commiting a heroic act, can be found in Dragon

241, “The Innkeepers Solution” in which a totally unheroic figure has to

face the problem of a dragon in a very unusual way. I liked this story

very much :slight_smile:

> This is one of the interactions between adventure level events and domain

> level effects that is only touched upon in the published materials, but I`d

suggest that having slain a dragon, or performing some other epically

heroic task might at least have the potential to effect the hero`s

> bloodline as having committed bloodtheft on a scion with a tainted or even

> minor bloodline might. There are indications that this is a theme in a

> couple of places in the published materials (most of the effects are

> negative, but they could just as easily be used as the basis for positive

> awards) from which to derive some guidelines for how to handle this kind of

> thing.

Slaying a dragon might very well be not heroic at all. Cerilian Dragons

are not the usual D&D monsters. Instead of dragons of all ages, sizes

and ECL´s that are listed in the Monsters Manual, Cerilian Dragons are

few, VERY few, all very powerful individual creatures. To portray them

as only the potential target of being slain for a heroic quest sounds

disturbing to me.

>> An Anuirean king who kills a dragon

>> harrasing the Gorgon`s Crown could arguably have relieved the Gorgon of a

problem. A Brecht king who sails off to unknown parts of the world and

kills a dragon who was unknown to Cerilians has done something only

theoretical in protecting his people, and possibly something that will

incur

draconic retribution. The act of killing the dragon is an act of

individual

achievement. Who benefits from the death of the dragon is a required

question when assessing its heroic stature for blood strength.

Since we`re talking about a bloodline increase, which is the BR equivalent

> of an individual improvement based on heroic/divine qualities, the fact

> that slaying a dragon (or something similar) is an individual

> accomplishment is really part of the point. If it was a regency award

> (which IMO would be possible as well) then the fact that the act is

> individual vs. domain level might make some sense, and the issue of saving

> the village by slaying the dragon might be more pertinent, but in this case

> its the individuals reward for an individuals action. Most often the

> individual rewards are in XP for 3e/3.5, but in the context of a BR

> campaign in which bloodlines figure so prominently (and in the absence of a

> system of reputation or fame) the reward for accomplishing epic campaign

> themes should probably be represented in the bloodline system.

A bloodline reward for regents has a regency award for the future added

in, as the regent will be able to earn more RP (assuming that he

controls a realm of larger size than his prior bloodline would have

enabled him to collect RP).

However I personally would prefer a RP award IF there should be a reward

related to bloodline at all. That is because a few RP as reward will not

change much, but a few bloodline points as reward for a regent with an

already great bloodline will mean possibly the equivalent of several

hundreds of RP he would have to spent if he would have raised his

bloodline spending RP…

And the Gorgon would have a fine way to raise his bloodline to godly

heights with much less work than maintaining his enemies over years and

years and harvesting their bloodlines when they raise high enough to be

bloodthefted. He already subdued one dragon…

> It would make sense, I guess, if one was going to have a system of

> circumstantial bonuses for the size of the realm, that there could be

> penalties to the same system… -1 for slaying a dragon that harasses

> enemy forces, -2 for slaying a dragon in the employ of a noble

> kingdom… Amongst events that are pretty unlikely to come up in the

> first place I think it`d be pretty unusual for such a thing to happen, and

it would probably make more as much sense for a DM to ad hoc that aspect of

the situation as the context requires.

Players Secrets of Tuarhievel mention exacty that situation in that a

group of humans (certainly PC´s ;-)) sneaked into the realm and slayed a

dragon who kept stories and tales as a living library to the sidhelien

of Tuarhievel…

In any case, heroic deeds need not necessarily represent only those that

are performed in response to some outside threat. Slaying dragons can be

done proactively, and is an epic event whether the dragon is minding its

own business laying about on his horde (Sigmund) or chewing its way through

the countryside (St. George.) It might not be as rewarding as actually

saving a princess from the dragon`s clutches, but it still merits a reward

> of the type being suggested.

> Gary

Not all dragons are evil as they are in most stories. Even the Cerilian

dragon in the Five Peaks is more of a guardian of his mothers heart -

slaying him would be no heroic deed for any good PC IMO.

bye

Michael

At 06:30 PM 12/13/2003 +0100, Michael wrote:

>And the Gorgon would have a fine way to raise his bloodline to godly

>heights with much less work than maintaining his enemies over years and

>years and harvesting their bloodlines when they raise high enough to be

>bloodthefted. He already subdued one dragon…

It`d still be easier to harvest bloodlines than slay dragons. Aside from

there being only a few dragons around (a nonreplenishable supply) if

slaying a dragon amounts to the same as killing a scion with a tainted or

minor bloodline then the reward from the bloodline is relatively

small. The Gorgon could kill dozens of scions with such bloodlines before

breakfast, while going after a dragon might take him until lunchtime or

maybe even later into the afternoon…

Not all dragons are evil as they are in most stories. Even the Cerilian

dragon in the Five Peaks is more of a guardian of his mothers heart -

slaying him would be no heroic deed for any good PC IMO.

It`s certainly not heroic in the sense that the person is a role-model, but

it`s heroic in the Herculean sense that it is a huge accomplishment beyond

the ability of typical people and something that would pretty well by

definition garner the person a lot of attention–and in BR that`s reflected

mostly by their bloodline at the adventure level of play. The morality of

the act would need to be taken into consideration, but since there are so

many possibilities there I still think some general modifiers would be apt

so the DM can have an idea on how to adjudicate that kind of thing.

I do think an RP award might be prudent too, and maybe that`d be the

simpler way to go. A non-regent could spend those RP to increase his

bloodline (if he had enough of them) while the regent could do what he

liked with them. Some method similar to that of the BRCS might be

used–though there shouldn`t be the same “regency explosion” of bloodtheft

for such a thing that is presented in that text. (I don`t think it should

be in there at all, but that`s another issue.)

Gary

All right I finally got my copy of Dragon #315 and wrote this e-mail to scalemail@paizo.com to express my opinions.

I encourage everyone to read the article and send their own opinions to Paizo. Without them they will be out of touch with their readers. The single biggest thing that bothers me is what I referenced in the Wyrm’s Turn and Dragon’s intention to publish their own “Official” Dark Sun 3.5 conversion even though the “Official” Dark Sun fan site already has - they took around 4 years to write it and had substantial feedback from the fans on the Athas.org site and on the posts that were seriously taken into account and adapted, they also had “feedback” from WotC that required some rewritting on their part to better fit into WotC plans - it just galls me that something like has happened. I don’t forsee that happening to Birthright since it is not near as popular as is Dark Sun but you never know. How good would it be to have the “Official” rules only be available in a magazine?

Concerning Dragon #315

First off I’d like to thank you for touching on the various campaign settings of the past that have been relegated to the “forgotten” bin.

But since no good act goes unpunished here are my complaints:

Why did you include Ghostwalk in a magazine dedicated to “Campaign Classics”? It is a new setting that wasn’t around before 3rd edition. Also the inclusion of an article on Forgotten Realms seems kind of out of place since it has been updated very thoroughly to 3rd ed. The inclusion of these 2 articles seems to counter the point that others weren’t included or the articles were truncated due to space considerations.

The note in the Wyrm’s Turn really got my ire up.

“You know the best part? This issue is only a prelude to our next spectacular Dragon and Dungeon crossover event. In May 2004, we’re going to release the Dark Sun campaign setting, revised for D&D 3.5! Happily it will see print about the time the revised 3.5 Psionics Handbook hits the shelves, enabling you to explore Athas fully armed for its many perils.”

Gosh I thought that the “official” DS 3.5 material was already published on by the Athas.org team after nearly 4 years of work and input by the many fans. This blatant disregard for this effort, and unless I’m mistaken the previous agreement with WotC that the official fan site (Athas.org) could publish the “Official” 3.0/3.5 conversion material.

What a slap in the face to the dedicated fans of the setting.

Also Birthright.net, the “Official” fan site for Birthright has been working on an “Official” 3/3.5 conversion for over 2 years now. The playtest version was posted last February (and mentioned on Enworld.) This spawned the posting of the Birthright maps in the maps section of the Wizard’s D&D site.

While I have great respect for Ed Stark’s work in the past, there are several problems with the blood abilities article. For one there were 44 different blood abilities in the Book of Regency, this article reduced them down to 6. This doesn’t make for a very good translation of the originally published characters and creatures from the setting.

The Book of Regency also talked about the draw of evil and chaos for scions with Azrai blood so the statement that a scion of Azrai is no more or less predisposed to evil than a half-orc is rather misleading.

Editorially there is a great deal of confusion over blood points and bloodline score – the terms seem to be used interchangeably with no clear definition for what a blood point is.

None of the articles listed are posted as OGL so the opportunity to incorporate them into the “Official” conversions is non-existent. Bottom line is keep up the work, but pay respect and attention to the ”Official” fan sites, they are “Official” for a reason and listed as such on the Wizards boards so don’t overuse the “100% Official Dungeons & Dragons” statement.

Duane Eggert

Wheew!
Now I really want to read Dragon 315. And the several following it to see if they print your letter. :smiley: And what they have to say after it. :wink:

OK, I got my copy of 315 today and here`s my take:

First, it`s awful thin. Just three pages. Yikes. The whole thing is

maybe a thousand words or so, including “The Creation of Birthright”

background insert. Other articles in the issue are similarly brief–though

I think only the Dragonlance article is shorter–and the authors certainly

have to be given some credit for trying to express some pretty extensive

concepts with such brevity, but it`s simply not enough to portray things

very well. As a couple of people have noted we only have six blood ability

“feats” in the article (along with two feats that grant bloodline itself

and increase bloodline score) and they aren`t really the more useful ones

that would give us an idea of how the other blood abilities might be

presented, nor are they the “sexier” ones–the choice to include the

Direction Sense blood ability, for instance, strikes me as

ill-considered. The article is so short it makes me question the size of

the font for the title, and the layout of the only graphic…

Second, I feel pretty comfortable saying that any of the existing

interpretations of bloodline for 3.5 suggested by various people in the BR

community are as viable as the one presented in the article. “Rule X” in

this article is that blood abilities should be represented by feats, which

is all well and good, but the idea doesn`t particularly lend itself to game

balance, accuracy, theme or relevance any more than several other

suggestions for bloodlines do. There is, for instance, no ECL information

in this article for all that a character could gain blood abilities that

could have to add up to ECL +1 easily if we use any of the articles on ECL

as a guide. A character class, templates, skills, etc. are all just as

apt, and I think in several cases probably more so than feats alone,

particularly since the interaction in this case with the bloodline score as

presented in the article is more than a little hazy.

Some specifics:

"Any creature with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 3 or more

can be invested with a bloodline."

That does seem to exclude the genesis of a couple of the existing major

awnsheghlien. The Hydra and the Wolf, for instance, are based on animals

that have intelligence scores that are 1 or 2 respectively in 3.5 and

crocodiles have charisma scores of 2, meaning the Hydra is doubly

excluded. Of course, we can hypothesize that they were originally smarter

and/or more charismatic than typical animals, but in general it seems like

an unnecessary ruling, and I don`t know what it is based on other, perhaps,

a desire to keep bloodlines out of constructs–which also appears to happen

in the original BR materials, so the rule is problematic…

"While a scion of Azrai (the evil god) might be looked on with suspicion,

he is no more or less predisposed to evil than a half-orc."

I`m not sure who should be insulted there… scions of Azrai or

half-orcs? Aside from it being a theme of the setting that Azrai`s

bloodline actually is both physically and morally corrupting–at least,

more than I`ve heard orcish blood to be–it just seems like a banal

comparison and one that, like the ability score requirements, is unneeded

for a 3.5 update.

The language is also a bit weird. As has been noted the terms bloodline

strength and bloodline score arent very clearly defined (they werent in

the original materials either, but in a 3.5 update it seems like an effort

should be made to clarify them since one of the strengths of the 3e/3.5

materials is their careful use of vocabulary) plus we get a new term

“Active Range” which would appear to be the range of bloodline scores that

determine bloodline strength.

The rules on increasing bloodline strength have similar vagaries. As has

already been discussed, the issue of slaying dragons is mentioned and is

quite wishy-washy. The only thing that is clear is that "defeating a more

powerful blooded character or monster (blooded monsters are known as

“abominations”) is always worth a bloodline point. Of course, it doesn`t

say what “defeating” or “more powerful” means, nor is the definition of

“abominations” really correct. If we try to use that standard as the basis

for determining what other types of heroic actions might warrant a

bloodline score point the difference between defeating a dragon and

defeating a dragon to save a town from destruction seems similarly

feeble. In general, the whole issue of increasing bloodline score from

heroic deeds alone needs to be either given more treatment or eliminated,

and Im favoring elimination not just because its too abstract but also

because it contradicts the original setting`s method of increasing

bloodline score.

The bloodline score increase of bloodtheft, as has also been mentioned, is

handled poorly, or–to be fair–it is handled with no more aplomb than it

was originally. I think I missed something in that section, however, in

that it says bloodline is increased in “one of thre ways” but appears to

listly only two… Unless Mr. Stark also meant the acquisition of a new

blood ability from the victim of bloodtheft. That is, BTW, a bad idea for

three reasons. First, it is in no way accounted for by ECL. Second, it

contradicts the existing concept of feats from what I can tell, since one

doesn`t just gain bonus feats in any similar manner in any of the D&D/D20

products Ive seen. (I could be wrong about that, since Ive not read

everything out there, but it seems like a bad way to go

mechanically.) Third, it doesn`t conform to the original BR materials in

any way.

The acquisition of blood abilities themselves by spending a feat is OK, I

guess, though equating bloodline strength (minor, major, great) with the

power of the blood ability doesn`t necessarily make much sense and grants

significant shifts in power. Since it was specifically mentioned that

taking the increased power of the scion into consideration at the beginning

of the article it seems like a very weird way of going about implementing

blood abilities since it doesn`t appear to be accounted for in any way.

In conclusion it is nice to see some sort of attention paid to the BR

setting, but I don`t think this article is going to resolve anything for

anyone. It might attract a very small number of people to the setting–but

I doubt it since it wasn`t particularly well written or exciting, and the

game mechanics presented were pretty underwelming. I haven`t fully

digested the whole issue yet, but as has also been noted some mention of

the fan sites for BR and the other campaign settings would have been

extraordinarily useful to people interested in obtaining more information

on them. Just a link to the WotC website that has links to the OOP

campaign settings would have been good.

Personally, I think a better strategy would have been to have an issue

dedicated to each of the settings… They are, apparently, going to do

just that for Dark Sun next year. I don`t know what their thinking is for

the other settings.

Gary

Gary schrieb:

…

> Some specifics:

> "Any creature with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 3 or more

> can be invested with a bloodline."

>

> That does seem to exclude the genesis of a couple of the existing major

> awnsheghlien. The Hydra and the Wolf, for instance, are based on animals

> that have intelligence scores that are 1 or 2 respectively in 3.5 and

> crocodiles have charisma scores of 2, meaning the Hydra is doubly

> excluded. Of course, we can hypothesize that they were originally smarter

> and/or more charismatic than typical animals, but in general it seems like

> an unnecessary ruling, and I don`t know what it is based on other, perhaps,

a desire to keep bloodlines out of constructs–which also appears to happen

in the original BR materials, so the rule is problematic…

Perhaps they refered only to Investiture with “invested”? So that still

any creature can become blooded by other means, just not by the

Investiture ceremony?

"While a scion of Azrai (the evil god) might be looked on with suspicion,

he is no more or less predisposed to evil than a half-orc."

I`m not sure who should be insulted there… scions of Azrai or

> half-orcs? Aside from it being a theme of the setting that Azrai`s

bloodline actually is both physically and morally corrupting–at least,

more than I`ve heard orcish blood to be–it just seems like a banal

> comparison and one that, like the ability score requirements, is unneeded

> for a 3.5 update.

Mmmh, perhaps no insult, but a sly try to push half-orcs into the

Birthright setting as a vanguard for gnomes and Cerilian

half-dragon/half-Minotaur Monks? :wink:

bye

Michael

At 05:44 PM 12/17/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>Perhaps they refered only to Investiture with “invested”? So that still

>any creature can become blooded by other means, just not by the

>Investiture ceremony?

There`s also a sentence "To steal a bloodline, a creature with a bloodline

and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 3 or more must kill a

blooded creature in a certain way:"… so it seems bloodtheft is also

excluded as a method, but I suppose you`re right it could still be other

weird, obscure ways not described in that text–or in the original BR

materials. One or two awnsheghlien would appear to have devoured their

bloodtheft victims rather than stabbed them through the heart, so maybe

something like that would be a better explanation.

>>"While a scion of Azrai (the evil god) might be looked on with suspicion,

>>he is no more or less predisposed to evil than a half-orc." I`m not sure

>>who should be insulted there… scions of Azrai or half-orcs?

>

>Mmmh, perhaps no insult, but a sly try to push half-orcs into the

>Birthright setting as a vanguard for gnomes and Cerilian

>half-dragon/half-Minotaur Monks? :wink:

Ah, yes, of course. I should have seen it…

Gary

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Dec 18 2003, 12:13 AM
[b] Mmmh, perhaps no insult, but a sly try to push half-orcs into the

Birthright setting as a vanguard for gnomes and Cerilian

half-dragon/half-Minotaur Monks? :wink:

bye

Michael
[/b]

:lol:

I read our copy of 315 and I think the Birthright section is not helpful, nor even that interesting!
However, it is good to see it included because it will remind others of the setting and maybe some of them will find their way here.

The new issue of Dragon (316) is featuring espionage. There are articles

for players, for DM`s using espionage, one on gear, scrying, and non-rogues

participating in espionage. In addition the Wyrm`s turn is on the appeal of

espionage as a subject, and the Sage Advice discusses grappling.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com