Elves/dwarves & Rule Province

Dungeons & Dragons BRCS 3.0/3.5 Edition
1

I don’t know if this has been bought up before, but it was something I was thinking about recently.

Bascially, what I’m wondering is how can elves use the rule province domain action given their low population growth. As an immortal race, I doubt they are churning out lots of little elves each year. In fact, the birth rate may even be as low as 0.1% or something like that. Which means for a nation like Tuarhievel there would be around 200 elves born each year.

Taking away those lost in wars and to sickness might cut this number in half, so my question is how can any elven nation ever increase its population, at least in games terms. If an elven population increase at 1-200 elves a year, and it takes many thousands to increase the population level, then logically it would take decades, if not centuries for an elven nation to achieve the sort of population growth needed to increase the population level of a province.
This same problem could apply to dwarves as well, as they would have a lower birth rate than humans.

Compare this to a human nation of similar size, with a population growth rate of say 3% would give you 6,000 births a year. So that nation could rule at least 1 province a year (if it was a level 1 or 2 province).

Comments?

2

For one thing ruling a province does not neccesarily mean population growth. Their can be a large number of people that are not under the control of the central government, rule province establishes control of those outlying populations. The thing is while this could make sense for some human provinces, it doesn’t for elves and Dwarves. From the cultures of both races it would seem logical that the central government would rule over the entire populations, especially for the dwarves.

If you want to take account of reality I would suggest a couple alterations. First have both a civilized population level and a total population level for each province. The total population level is the max that the civilized population level can be raised to using rule province.

Second create rules for raising the total population level. The easiest would be immigration. Spend money or give tax breaks to encourage emmigration from another province, this could cause the other province to go down in its total population level. The other harder and more long term strategy is increasing the birthrate. The total population level would still be limited by the terrain.

3

I think province level is a reflection of several things including

population, social organization, and technology. Humans (and goblins) may

have a reproduction that makes the rule options sensible once in a while,

but I think most improvements are actually reflections of technological and

especially organizational change. If attacks were made against province

levels which could be interpreted as destruction of infrastructure and

disruption of organization, then I`d allow elves and dwarves to use Rule to

repair that infratructure and stabilize their social organization. Barring

any reason to think that infratructure or social organization were not

already optimized, I would be reluctant to allow more than one rule action

for the elves or dwarves. The more reformist and innovative the royal, the

more I would be inclined to see a rule action on the basis of improved

organization.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

4

I sort of feel that province level actually reflects the efficiency of a province. That is how well in can support a given population and produce various items. When dealing only with similar races it could very well translate into population size, but when dealing with other races, like dwarves and elves it is better to look at it reflecting how efficient the province is in producing and supporting the needs of the population.

5

That wouldn’t make a lot of sense when looking at elven realms though (it may for dwarves) as their population levels certainly do not represent production or technology (it may represent social structure). Those sort of things tend to suggest industry and elves are not a race that would emprace industry of any form. In fact, most elven realms don’t even have guild holdings. Improving infrastructure etc has no effect if there is no one around to use it.

In a way, this low birth rate and the inability for elves to increase their population quickly makes sense. It would account for their slow decay and eventually could lead to the extinction of the elven people, just as the dragons and the other ancient races have become (or are becoming) extinct. It would mean that every death suffered by an elven nation would be a disaster. The current elven realms would have maintained their population by accepting elves from other realms that have fallen. For example, Tuarhievel is all that is left of an greater elven nation that once spanned all of the Aelvinnwode. The elves in other parts of the forest have given up their homes and land and retreated to Tuarhievel. The Sielwode would have accepted elves from the Erebannien when that forest was taken over by the humans, and so on.

However, now things have become a little desperate for the elves, and they are being pressed from all sides by human and humanoid realms. The shorter lived races are growing in population so quickly that the elves cannot hope to win a conflict. They just can’t recover their losses quick enough to compete and are in danger of being wiped out. Even if they were left alone completely and none died from sickness or accidents, the numbers of elves would still take centuries, possibly even thousands of years to recover to the point where elves were able begin to significantly increase their population.

Saying that the Rule Province action covers more than just population is one way of handling this proplem in game terms, but I think I’d prefer to rule that elves can only rule their province once the population increases to a point where this is possible. So for level 0-2 provinces it might take a decade for enough elves to be born (or imigrate from other regions) to increase the populations. For higher level provinces it could take centuries. This could help to explain why some elven nations (Tuarhievel for example) have started to except humans as inhabitants, only in small number at first of course.

6

The other thing that would be beneificial for an elven nation would be to hire units of humans, either from an internal human population or from friendly human regents able to raise armies.

7

----- Original Message -----

From: “Raesene Andu” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 7:16 PM

> That wouldn`t make a lot of sense when looking at elven realms

though (it may for dwarves) as their population levels certainly do

not represent production or technology (it may represent social

structure). Those sort of things tend to suggest industry and elves

are not a race that would emprace industry of any form.

I`m really not thinking of production, I am thinking of the functioning and

effeciency of social institutions. Keep in mind that lowering province

levels effects the max levels of all types of holdings and effects regency

collection. What effect would it have if a fire broke out in a county

courthouse, destroying property records, geneologies, tax records, killing

the sheriff, and some minor judicial officials? Property transfers would be

cast into doubt, had you or had you not paid tax, &c. Until the facts of

the lost records were re-established or accepted by law, or otherwise

verified, the ability to the province to send its previous taxes, loyalty,

political effeciency, and so forth is comprimised.

One may still see such things as inappropriate to the sidhe if one regards

their social structure as being so primitive that it does not rely on

complex social institutions. Social complexity may be something unneccesary

to elves due to their long lives (less to keep track of and more time to

incorporate the record keeping as a memory).

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

8

In a way, this discussion is somewhat related to other discussions on elven (and dwarven) extended lifespans and th econsequences for character advancement, political ambitions, etc. I proposed elsewhere an adjustment for the flow of elven time within their realms, the result being that elves take only one “proactive” domain action per season, although more might be allowed as a reaction to external threats.

But the time issue aside, it seems easy to justify that elven rulers, and the elven people, wouldn’t genreally be interested in rapid growth and expansion. That’s an extremely human concept, a product of the ambition spurred by relatively short lives and short views.

Combine this psychology with slower (near-timeless, in the case of elves) physiology, and one thing becomes pretty clear in my mind: elves simply wouldn’t have the capabilities to rule their provinces very quickly, and dwarves, too, to a certain extent.

If humans can rule provinces a maximum of once per season, then it seems reasonable to allow dwarves to rule their provinces only once every 2 seasons. For elves, once a year is a reasonable limit as well, unless we 're talking about situations that Kenneth mentioned, like repairing damaged infrastructure and systems of collection and control. But in all honesty, I think those sorts of effects are usually best represented by temporary drops in province levels and/or income, rather than permanent decreases. This follows the guidelines set down under the consequences of random events in the RB and BRCS, and makes a degree of sense. It’s only if these problems continued unabated that they would eventually cause a permanent decrease in province levels. And by that point, it might very well take the same sort of resources and actual population increase to restore such a damaged territory.

9

Hi!

I’m inclined to go with the idea of province level indicates control of population rather than numbers.

A population level is definately tied to the number of people present but it is possibly more tied to the number of people who pay their taxes, participate in their community (night watch, jury duty, …) and otherwise form part of the ‘nation’ run by the regent.

Here’s a possible breakdown of how some races see their duty to their country.

Dwarves: Very High! Most if not nearly all (80-90%) of mature dwarves in an area will acknowledge the right of the regent to rule them and fulfill their side of the social contract.

Humans: Very Low to High. We’re a mixed bunch with a strong independant streak that manifests at the weirdest moments.
Look at the Rjurik, their supposed population numbers based on province levels would have them wiped out by the humanoids after one hard winter. Even allowing for all adult males being combat ready & able.
My theory is that province levels are high where a strong leader who cares to exert absolute or near absolute rule is in charge or where the population feels a very strong civic duty. Let’s look at Anuire. The capital province is a tiny parcel of land compared to many smaller population centres yet because we have an ancient well established city with strong civil institutions and also the pride of it’s citizenry the province level is as high as the system allows.

Humanoids: Very Low to High. Civil duty not being a noted feature of the humanoid make-up I feel that it’s largely down to the sheer nastiness of the ruler & his clicke. Look at the Blood Skull Baronies. Nobody messes with the ruler, who want’s to live through the incident anyway. Thurazor: Run by a canny little bastard who poisoned his way to the top & is a master of the backstab (sorry, sneak attack :)). On the other hand Markazor: a weak ruler only distantly backed up by the Gorgon & woopsie, low province levels.

Elves: Very low to Good. Chaos central. Lets look at the sidhelien… Immortal, Immune to disease, Ruled by their whims (“I think I’ll be a fisherman this century.” Alynx the Archmage), Loners…
Whilst those who care for organisation really throw themselves into it (see the regents & their lieutenants) the vast majority of elvenkind isn’t out to work with the rest of itself. Elves like to sing, dance make nifty things & do whatever comes to mind. I’m sorry Sorrell isn’t able to pay taxes this decade. He’s on a walkabout . shrug
This isn’t to say that they won’t pull together in a fight. Kill goblins/humans you say? Count me in! -J typical elf-

So to summarize.

The population has to be there (though I don’t like the suggested numbers given in the rulebook).

Most importantly the population has to be pulling behind the regent, or rather, behind their nation. A real case of the workers of the world unite.
It’s not the regent who matters but the strength of the country. Are 50% or more of the population below the poverty line? People want and need leaders but they’re there to show the way. They don’t build the lives people lead.

That’s it.

Personally I don’t like the rule province action. I think in most games it’s broken if some pretty severe restrictions aren’t in place. Especially if we’re talking actual population growth.

My rough rule of thumb. A landed regent can try and rule one of his provinces up every year & he only gets the one try. DC = 10 + the pascale scale for the level you’re coming from. The sum of your holding levels in that province assisting (yes even sources).
eg. to rule a lvl 3 to lvl 4 would be DC 16 (10+1+2+3)

For goblins I change that based upon their style. Thurazor once per failed assasination attempt, max one/year. Markazor once/year if the Gorgon says so. Blood Skull once/year if a strong foe was beaten (internal or external). Etc.

Dwarves would get a try every 3 (or 5) years plus one for every year with an attempted invasion that’s repelled (boosts the peoples love & trust of their regent)

Elves one of every 10 years (got to keep them in the game) plus one for any year with a major magical event (think big, surviving the curse of Azrai is good)

Hope this all makes sense.

Cheers!

Caine

10

The main problem with saying that the province level represents control over the population rather than actual population is that this breaks down when you are looking are very low level provinces.

If a province is ruled from level 0 to say level 3, this cannot be done by increasing control over the existing population because there isn’t an existing population. This increase in level can only be done by bringing in a hell of a lot of settlers from somewhere.

Anyway, I was thinking of a similar system to the one you have proposed, limiting the number of times an elven or dwarven provinces can be ruled. Will have to try it out and see how it works.

11

The Jew schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2020

> The Jew wrote:

> The other thing that would be beneificial for an elven nation would be to hire units of

humans, either from an internal human population or from friendly human

regents able to raise

armies.

Or enslave the goblins (again) :wink:

Isn´t that what Tuarhievel is doing in the Rulebook by allying with

Dhoesone? Dhoesone has goblins from Thurazor and sidhelien from

Tuarhievel in it´s army together with the human core army.

bye

Michael

12

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Oct 20 2003, 04:35 PM
[b] Or enslave the goblins (again) :wink:

[/b]

Ussually a bad idea to use slaves for an army, especially their is a chance that you could fight the same race in war.

13

Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 19 2003, 08:53 PM
[b] ----- Original Message -----

From: “Raesene Andu” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 7:16 PM

> That wouldn`t make a lot of sense when looking at elven realms

though (it may for dwarves) as their population levels certainly do

not represent production or technology (it may represent social

structure). Those sort of things tend to suggest industry and elves

are not a race that would emprace industry of any form.

I`m really not thinking of production, I am thinking of the functioning and

effeciency of social institutions. Keep in mind that lowering province

levels effects the max levels of all types of holdings and effects regency

collection. What effect would it have if a fire broke out in a county

courthouse, destroying property records, geneologies, tax records, killing

the sheriff, and some minor judicial officials? Property transfers would be

cast into doubt, had you or had you not paid tax, &c. Until the facts of

the lost records were re-established or accepted by law, or otherwise

verified, the ability to the province to send its previous taxes, loyalty,

political effeciency, and so forth is comprimised.

One may still see such things as inappropriate to the sidhe if one regards

their social structure as being so primitive that it does not rely on

complex social institutions. Social complexity may be something unneccesary

to elves due to their long lives (less to keep track of and more time to

incorporate the record keeping as a memory).

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[/b]

This is real similar to the point I was making about efficiency. Elves (and dwarves) are generally more efficient in their productin thatn are humans. That is to say that an elven province with a relative high province rating is not necessicarily a reflection of the total population but an equivalent when compared to humans ones. Remember that humans are the standard reference for all races. So the elven province can produce goods ‘as if it were a human province of equivalent level’ because the elves know ways of creating things more efficiently. They incorporate nature into what they do and don’t go ‘against the grain’ so they can create more things (or more specifically better valued things) than a human province witht the same population level.

Similar agruments could be applied to dwarves, except that it would be that they know better how to manage their environment as opposed to working with their environment like elves.

14

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Oct 20 2003, 03:34 PM
[b] The main problem with saying that the province level represents control over the population rather than actual population is that this breaks down when you are looking are very low level provinces.

If a province is ruled from level 0 to say level 3, this cannot be done by increasing control over the existing population because there isn’t an existing population. This increase in level can only be done by bringing in a hell of a lot of settlers from somewhere.

Anyway, I was thinking of a similar system to the one you have proposed, limiting the number of times an elven or dwarven provinces can be ruled. Will have to try it out and see how it works. [/b]

Then you better make long lived elves and dwarves start at twice or 3 times ethe experience/level as humans. one doesnt live 200 to 2000 years and learn nothing. No human could ever be able to match the knowledge and experience as a 2000 year old individual. Oh sure games and fantasy like to create silly little excuses for there NOt being a huge gap like humans have greater drive or are more organised ect.. But people just cant really grasp just how long 2000 years is. Think at how far we have come in technology well imagine a person that learned for 2000 years they would be so knowledge able about things that we couldnt truely comprehend it. A professor who studies a given subject for 50 years would look like a toddler compared to a person who studdied that same subject for 150 to 200 years.

The idea that elves have no industry is a misconception. no one has indusrty! This is an artisan level economy. Elves defenetly have artisans and the pop levels are more an indication of production than actual bodies. Its easier to explain things in terms of population than units of production. If you refuse to see that the populations levels are not accuate dipictions of accual population levels but rather abstract representations then no explination will satisfy you.

Populations levels DONT represent bodies in BR. A rather simple explination.

15

No matter if you consider the level of a province to be just population, or a combination of population and production, it is still also true that the main different between a level 1 province and a level 4 province is the population of the province. So therefore the only way you are going to get an increase in the level of a province is to get an increase in the population, which bring me back to my original question on birth rates of elves and dwarves.

And I’ll leave the matter of immortallity vs. mortality for now. I have my own thoughts on that matter, but that is not what I’m concerned about at the moment.

16

can elfes age if thay wis to, as in Tolkin

17

Originally posted by kari@Oct 21 2003, 06:17 AM
can elfes age if thay wis to, as in Tolkin

No, they are immortal unless they go to the shadow world where they are mortal. See Shadow Spawn. This latter concept is one I especially find intriguing.

18

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2020

>

> irdeggman wrote:

>

> No, they are immortal unless they go to the shadow world where they are mortal.

See Shadow Spawn. This latter concept is one I especially find

intriguing.

Mmmh, perhaps I understand his question different than you, but

he asked “can they age” and you said “no, they are immortal” (=can´t die).

I would say they are immortal and can´t die (except from violence) but

they can age but do not suffer/enjoy the benefits and penalties of the

age categories. Immortal <> Everyoung

bye

Michael

19

Michael Romes writes:

>>

>> No, they are immortal unless they go to the shadow world where they are

>> mortal.

> See Shadow Spawn. This latter concept is one I especially find

> intriguing.

>

> Mmmh, perhaps I understand his question different than you, but

> he asked “can they age” and you said “no, they are immortal” (=can´t die).

It`s kind of a weird question that requires a bit of extrapolation.

Cerilians elves stop growing physically older at a certain point of

maturation (25-30?) which is a bit different from saying that they "are

immortal". The texts really mean “ever young” rather than truly immortal,

of course, since elves can die… at least physically. They may have an

immortal soul/spirit that reincarnates in a new body. At least, that seems

to be the most commonly accepted version of the elven version of life after

death.

It`s never positively stated that an elf can choose to grow older than 25-30

(or whatever point of physical maturation it is that they stop aging.)

Thats most likely because its a rather odd thing to need to point out. I

can`t think of a reason why anyone (elf or mortal) would choose to go much

past 30 if they had the option to stop aging… I`d certainly have stopped

somewhere in the mid 20`s if it were up to me, and if I ever got tired of

life I`d just off myself and leave a nice pretty corpse rather than go

through the long and painstaking process of suicide by conscious decrepitude

that choosing to grow old would represent.

I suppose if someone really wanted to physically age but was ever young most

of the effects of aging can be replicated by excessive suntanning, calcium

deficiency and a lack of exercise… assuming they can`t just decide to age,

that is. But aside from a fetish for gray hair is there any reason why

someone would want to grow physically older if they needn`t?

Gary

20

Originally posted by geeman@Oct 21 2003, 07:09 PM
But aside from a fetish for gray hair is there any reason why someone would want to grow physically older if they needn`t?

Mmm, if said hypothetical elf had a fetish for gray hair, wouldn’t they want whoever they were /dating/ to grow physically older? :wink: