Five Oaths, returning

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Hi, I`m back on the email list after a year-long absence.

I`m warming up a FtF game, and I`ve been hit with some questions about

the Five Oaths, epecially the last one: “destroy all non-swearers.” That can

have dire implications for the sidhe, as nearly every sidhe is a potential

true-magic wielder. If any one sidhe (or non-Khinasi true wizard) swears, they

pretty much cannot go home again, as they`ll have to hunt down all their friends

and colleagues. The game I`m setting up has 4 elves/half-elves in the party,

on a round-the-world cruise. I think I`d better warn them not to get off the

boat when the ship hits the Khinasi parts.

In general, I suppose that lends weight to Innishiere`s isolation and

Rhuannach`s inability to find allies against the Lamia.

Comments?

Lee.

2

run a search on five oaths, there are some threads that talk about it.

here is one of em: kenasi wizards and their oaths

3

The way I’ve run the Five Oaths, is that they are stipulated by a treaty signed by all the Khinasi nations following the curse that brought down the Masetian mages and unleashed the horrors of the Shadow World upon the Khinasi people. This has the affect of not requiring Khinasi mages or mages trained in Khinasi to destroy every other human or elven mage they meet, as it is only binding among the Khinasi states.

4

The way I’ve run the Five Oaths, is that they are stipulated by a treaty signed by all the Khinasi nations following the curse that brought down the Masetian mages and unleashed the horrors of the Shadow World upon the Khinasi people. This has the affect of not requiring Khinasi mages or mages trained in Khinasi to destroy every other human or elven mage they meet, as it is only binding among the Khinasi states.

Though because of the historical reasons you cited, I expect there would still be a great deal of bias and disdain toward non-Khinasi mages. Which sounds pretty true to human history as I know it. <_<

I like your reasoning, Chris. Very plausible indeed.

Osprey

5

Here is how I look at it, using the text from the BRCS paladin of Avani:

All paladins of Avani know the Five Oaths of Service that the Khinasi require to be taken by all capable of casting true magic. They maintain and keep to these oaths as a point of honor, even though they do not undergo the same rituals that those taking them do. They are frequently used as hunters of those who refuse to take them but don’t hold other nationalities to the same standards since they are considered less civilized and knowing than are the Khinasi.

In fact I’d like to insert that into the BRCS chapter on magic. By using the concepts of sayim and the Khinasi self-awareness that they are indeed the most civilized race it fits in.

Regarding elves, well elves shun necromancy spells anyway. So the only issue would be that elves haven’t taken the oaths. Taking the oaths involves going to a human temple and all humans know that the elves don’t worship human gods. The animosity between elves and humans is sufficient enough to not demand that non-humans meet the standards of humans.

If a wizard takes the oaths he cannot willingly break them. That is laid out in the BoM. What that entails or how it happens is left up to the DM. Mention is made of an artifact (unspecified) though.

It is entirely possible (and quite likely) that taking the oath involves a direct intervention with Rilni himself. I do find this interesting since it is Avani who is the patron deity of the Khinasi and not Rournil, but since Rournil no longer has a chosen people (the Vos abandoned him {and Vorynn} a long time ago).

Now since this is an intervention with a human god then it is extremely logical (and sound from a game-mechanics standpoint) that it only pertains to relations with humans. Hence elves (and half-elves) are exempt from this judgement.

That only leaves how to handle the relationship with the other human-races. Back to my interpretation that Khinasi consider them less civilized and knowledgeable of the ways of true magic and thus like children are not held to the full accountability that an adult would be. They would however scold and lecture them on their misunderstanding of true magic, within the confines of maintaining sayim of course.

Lee,

4 elves/half-elves landing in Khinasi lands have bigger issues than just their use of magic to consider. Humans and elves/half-elves don’t get along at their core, remnant of the elf-human wars. Hence there is a lot of role-playing/shunning/prejudice issues to overcome outside of the Oaths thing. And those would have to be handled first since they are based on visibility and not on what a character cando (i.e., class abilities).

A single one might stand a chance but a group of 4 (or more) - gosh that sure looks like an advance invasion force to me. {Perception of people that had been at war with elves}

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In a message dated 9/28/04 5:57:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Now since this is an intervention with a human god then it is extremely

logical (and sound from a game-mechanics standpoint) that it only pertains to

relations with humans. Hence elves (and half-elves) are exempt from this

judgement.That only leaves how to handle the relationship with the other

human-races. Back to my interpretation that Khinasi consider them less civilized and

knowle

dgeable of the ways of true magic and thus like children are not held to

the full accountability that an adult would be. They would however scold and

lecture them on their misunderstanding of true magic, within the confines of

maintaining sayim of course.

>>

This sounds too mild to me. So an elf wizard entering Khinasi borders would

merely be ignored, since he`s not a signatory to the treaty? And an Anuirean

would be lectured?

Lee.

7

Originally posted by Lee@Sep 28 2004, 09:00 AM
[b] This sounds too mild to me. So an elf wizard entering Khinasi borders would

merely be ignored, since he`s not a signatory to the treaty? And an Anuirean

would be lectured?

Lee.

[/b]

Signatory to what treaty?

I never mentioned a treaty. That was Fearless_Leader.

Why would a Khinasi wizard who has taken the Oaths attempt to kill an outsider who doesn’t know about them?

The Khinasi are the most educated people on Cerilia, they are also logical and extremely polite (see sayim).

Furthermore expecting an elf to take an Oath to a human deity (which is what the taking of the 5 Oaths is tied to) is likewise ridiculous. Being as educated as they are the Khinasi wizards are pretty likely to know that the elves have been around longer than their deities.

Never said an Anuirean (or an elf) would be ignored. I only said that they would not be held to the standards that the most civilized culture holds themselves to.

Nothing says they wouldn’t attempt to convince them of the ‘proper’ way to handle true magic.

8

Originally posted by Lee@Sep 28 2004, 06:00 AM
This sounds too mild to me. So an elf wizard entering Khinasi borders would merely be ignored, since he`s not a signatory to the treaty? And an Anuirean would be lectured

Here’s some more thoughts I had on the matter.

The presence of a treaty doesn’t preclude possible divine intervention at the Temple of Rilni. In fact, the treaty could have been signed there. It obligates mages born in Khinasi to go to the temple and take the Five Oaths.

I like the idea of paladins of Avani helping to enforce the Five Oaths. I think that fits well into the setting.

When it comes to non oath-bound wizards, such as other humans and elves, I think these wizards would likely be closely watched by the local law enforcement. Some realms might even outlaw such wizards within their realms. These realms might require that any wizard coming into their realm state their abilities and offer proof of having taken the oaths. Any wizard within these more strigent lands who gets caught would face some pretty stringent penalties (perhaps even death).

There is also some degree of interpretation involved in the oaths. One oath, as I recall, requires that wizards obey the lawful lord of the land. Some might see this as requiring all non-native wizards who are just passing through to swear allegiance, while others might take a less strict view of this matter by simply keeping an eye on the wizard and only punish them if they commit a crime or break the ban on necromancy. (Naturally, this point is only relavent to a point… afterall, wizards aren’t exactly swarming off the boats in this setting).

The idea of the Khinasi looking down their noses at the other “less civilized” races also fits and I don’t think it contradicts my idea at all. My idea was simply the legal basis for the Five Oaths (as I believe it is the law that wizards take them). As well, temples of Avani in other areas of Cerilia, like the LPA, might take up the idea that all other mages should copy this measure of civilization by requiring their wizards to take such oaths. This is obviously a very foreign idea for Anuire, but with the spread of new ideas throughout those lands, it could be gaining momentum.

9

Lee Hanna schrieb:

>In a message dated 9/28/04 5:57:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

>

>…

>This sounds too mild to me. So an elf wizard entering Khinasi borders would

>merely be ignored, since he`s not a signatory to the treaty? And an Anuirean

>would be lectured?

>

Lectured sounds strange as the text under Sayim in the Cities of the Sun

book states that for example a visitor should never comment if his host

has a quarrel with his wife in front of company, even though the host

clearly commited a breach of sayim.

It is the duty of the person itself to recognize it´s own fault and

admit it or change it´s behaviour.

How does a Khinasi:

a) find out that the elf wizard is a wizard as long as this wizard does

not openly state that he is? Even casting arcane spells could mean that

he is only a magician, only the obvious casting of true magic would

reveal that he is a wizard.

b) avoid losing Sayim by pointing out the error in anothers doings? I

would imagine that the Khinasi would leave the foreigner alone, avoid

him and won´t aid him with few hints hidden in idioms that the foreigner

might reconsider his actions.

c) treat an Anuirean Wizard? Is it worse that he is Anuirean, the former

overlords, who conquered and occupied Khinasi and were hated, or for

being a Wizard who has not sworn the oaths?

d) act at all when meeting a Anuirean Wizard? It might be that being an

Anuirean Wizard (who has no understanding of the importance of the

oaths) could be ignore as long as this wizard does not act against them.

bye

Michael

10

At 05:27 PM 9/28/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Why would a Khinasi wizard who has taken the Oaths attempt to kill an

>outsider who doesn`t know about them?The Khinasi are the most educated

people on Cerilia, they are also logical and extremely polite (see sayim).

Killing someone isnt necessarily an uneducated thing to do. It neednt be

illogical or even rude. The time, manner, circumstance or other context of

killing someone might be any of those things, but the act of taking a life

is not in and of itself at all impolite.

As for why the Khinasi would kill someone who doesn`t know about the Five

Oaths is not a matter of education or some sort of medieval cultural

tolerance. The Oaths reflect and inform the morality of the culture

itself. IMO the Khinasi aren`t any more tolerant than any other Cerilian

race, but for the sake of argument let`s say they are, in fact, the most

tolerant of Cerilia`s humans. (Personally, I think the Brecht are, but

lets skip that.) That still isnt saying much. The BR setting has races

and cultures that are more insular than those in more typical D&D settings.

Furthermore expecting an elf to take an Oath to a human deity (which is

what the taking of the 5 Oaths is tied to) is likewise ridiculous. Being

as educated as they are the Khinasi wizards are pretty likely to know that

the elves have been around longer than their deities.

First off, I should note that the people who have taken the Oaths are not

obliged to force elves (or others) to take the Five Oaths. That is

actually a function of the laws of the Khinasi nations, not the Oaths

themselves. A swearer of the Oaths is obliged only to destroy a true mage

who violates the Oaths–which can itself only be done by someone who has

not sworn them. Meaning: someone who has sworn the Oaths must destroy any

wielder of true magic who disobeys a lawful ruler of the state, destroys or

otherwise endangers knowledge, raises his/er hand against a mage sworn to

the Oaths, speaks with undead, or doesn`t try to destroy another wielder of

true magic who violates any of the above rules. Any other action–just

wielding true magic, for instance, or wandering around in Khinasi lands

without having sworn the Oaths–does not oblige a swearer of the Oaths to

kill that person. An oath swearer is free to associate with such a person,

turn him in to the authorities to be taken to the ToR, or whatever so long

as that person doesn`t engage in activities that violate the Oaths.

That said, when it comes to taking the Oaths and the religious nature of

the Sidhe, there is no reason why they wouldn`t be able to take

them. Elves simply don`t have gods of their own, nor do they as a group

worship them. That doesnt mean they couldnt take the Oaths if they were

going to live in Khinasi lands amongst the human population. They are free

to worship gods as individuals–if that`s even a requirement of taking the

Oaths. The Oaths need not really be a personal intervention of Rilni at

all. It might be some powerful artifact at the ToR. (Which seems more

probable to me, given that the god probably has a lot of things to occupy

his time other than dealing with individual mages, and that the gods have

taken a sort of “hands off” approach to things in Cerilia since Deismaar.)

>Never said an Anuirean (or an elf) would be ignored. I only said that

>they would not be held to the standards that the most civilized culture

>holds themselves to.

In fact, the only standards they need be held to are the Oaths themselves.

The last of the Five Oaths by definition applies to non-Oath

swearers. Since a swearer of the Oaths is unable to violate the Oaths at

all, the oath to destroy someone who does not abide by the Oaths can only

be directed at those who have not sworn them. No swearer can violate the

Oaths and, therefore, require another swearer to destroy him. There would

be the occasional Khinasi true mage who has managed to avoid swearing the

Oaths, but the majority of those who have not taken the Oaths are

non-Khinasi. The Oaths are, therefore, meant specifically to address

non-swearers. That doesn`t mean the swearer must be ever vigilant or

fanatical in his proselytization, but the Oaths do oblige him to be

involved in the actions of non-swearers.

Gary

11

Also the only Oath that would be directly observable would be the one concerning raising and communicating with the dead.

As pointed out earlier elves shun necromancy spells so this is not something that an elf would be very likely to do. as specified in the BoM wizards practicing magic of shunned schools are often shunned themselvs and ostraacized by their people, may times they are looked upon as aberrations or evildoers. So an elf using necromantic spells is most likely an outsider in all cases - not welcome in elven society and because he is an elf not welcome in human society either.

If you look carefully at the text surrounding the Oaths it is written specifically to apply to Khinasi.

“Any Khinasi spellcaster able to comand true magic is legally bound. . .” {Note no reference to non-Khinasi}

“Those called to true magic who will not journey to the temple and swear to them (the Oaths) are hunted down and slain.”

From the Cities of the Sun

“. .no Khinasi mage can violate his oaths. . .”

It also states". . .while others believe that Rilni, god of magic, appears to each wieder of true magic to bind the mage to his word with divine power" {just as much emphasis as that of using an artifact - so either method is acceptable it is just a matter of DM judgement.

So the text clearly states that Khinasi spellcaster capable of casting true magic, but doesn’t reference any other culture. It also talks about the Oaths being handed down to the Basarji from the Masetians. Note this is specific to the Bsarji/Masetian culture and it is real easy to make the correlation to culture-specific requirements and treating other cultures as utilizing shunned schools.

As far as dislike for elves goes even though it states in Cities of the Sun that the Khinasi are open-minded to non-humans it only mentions halflings, dwarves and humans from other cultures - elves are specifically left off the list.