Flavour Vs. Game-mechanics

Throughout my rather short life, I have to admit, I came up time and time again with unfairness caused by the inability of people having the exact same experience and feelings others have on most matters. Knowing from first-hand experience that such things can only ruin our role-playing sessions on a level that can hurt almost everyone - that of being criticised and call things, like power-player, meta-gamer, and such things - I am here making an effort at clearing things up on a level of balancing two very different aspects of role-playing: Flavour, the distinct feeling that provides as with verisimilititude above all, and Game-Mechanics, that present us with game-balance.

It has been discussed many times in the past, and it won’t stop being discussed any time soon. That much, I assure you, I am aware of pretty well… What matters to me most is that we clear Birthright-related things up on a level that will leave grudges behind. I, first of all, promise to keep a low tone and not insult anyone. This will be the ultimatum of this thread, I hope, that we discuss things in reason.

To keep things in check, I will present the first issue, and things can go on as they like, but it would be best if you presented others to me first through email; when the current issue is resolved, the next one will be discussed.

If you are fine with that, so that such issues are not a problem, we will go on in a few hours notice. See you all! :wink:

At 07:05 PM 10/8/2003 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>I am here making an effort at clearing things up on a level of balancing

>two very different aspects of role-playing: Flavour, the

>distinct feeling that provides as with verisimilititude above all, and

>Game-Mechanics, that present us with game-balance.

I think a definition of “flavour” needs to be made first off. There is a

third category of material that needs to be presented. That is, there is

not only flavour text and game mechanics, there are also campaign

themes. Flavour text needn`t influence game mechanics, while portraying

the campaign themes in game mechanics is what makes something a D20 product

and an individual campaign setting.

Recently, it seems like certain things in the original materials that are,

essentially, campaign materials are being described as flavour

text. Sometimes the campaign material in question might conflict with

other campaign material–though I think that is more rare than has been

suggested–or there may not be a ready 3e/D20 method of portraying that

campaign material, but more often than not there`s no real reason to

redefine things as flavour for the purpose of the campaign setting as a

whole. In fact, in a few cases the redefinition seems to obscure several

aspects of the setting that are really pretty valuable for actual play.

What`s worse IMO is that in several cases it seems like campaign material

is dropped or altered in order to make things fit into the 3e/D20 set of

rules. Aside from the loss of several campaign themes, the 3e rules make

several attempts to describe how they can be changed for particular

campaigns, and it is one of the expressed purposes in developing the 3e/D20

system, so an effort to make campaign material fit into the rules rather

than adapting the rules to fit the campaign setting is an inverted way of

going about it. Portraying bloodline in 3e is probably the most obvious

example of what I`m going to dub “3e formalism” for the sake of this

issue. Making bloodline an ability score, a character class, a template,

etc. are all methods that have been used in order to incorporate the idea

into a 3e update. In fact, all one really needs is a way of accounting for

the granted powers that fits into 3e`s mechanics, not a completely new way

of portraying bloodline.

More significant is the redefinition of things that are pretty clearly

campaign material and meant to reflect certain campaign specific dynamics

into flavour text. The most obvious one in this case is the changes of the

BRCS that several people have expanded upon is in regards to one of the

most fundamental aspects of the BR setting; bloodline and bloodtheft. The

ideas expressed by several people, and apparently the Playtest document,

redefines bloodline as a sort of generic system of political influence

rather than the BR thematic role of bloodline–the product of an actual

divine power granted by exposure to energies released at the Battle of

Deismaar. Now, it needs to be noted that it`s fine to develop a generic

system of political influence that parallels that of BR. However, that`s

not what bloodline is meant to be in the campaign setting. This has led to

several overt game mechanical changes to the setting materials that may be

inspired by the original BR materials, but don`t reflect the original BR

materials` theme. Non-scions can be regents, bloodline is transferred as

the result of any demise hand-to-hand fight, bloodline can be gained by

non-scions by bloodtheft, etc. All of those things make sense (arguably)

if bloodline is a generic system of rulership, but none of these things

appeared in the original materials, not because we didn`t have 2e game

mechanics to portray them–which we didn`t then any more than we do

now–but because bloodline isn`t meant to be generic in the original

campaign materials.

In the long run the purpose of such flavor/colour commentary needs to be

defined. As in, what is flavour and, therefore, unlikely to be true vs.

what is actual campaign material vs. the game mechanical presentation of

both/either of those two things.

When it comes to issues of game balance I think the problem isn`t so much

how to balance things, but simply selling the concept of balance in the

first place. That is, there are several ways to balance things in

3e/D20. Templates, ECL, XP penalties, etc. The problem is that for a lot

of folks having characters that are out of balance appears to be the point

in developing them. Scions should be out of balance, the thinking is, in

order to reflect their superiority over commoners. While I agree that that

is the case, game mechanically one uses some balancing factor not in order

to compensate other characters or penalize the scion, but in order to

situate the scion`s power in the game so that adventures and awards are

appropriately created and granted. One doesn`t balance in order to turn a

gaming session into a sort of all-encompassing level playing field. The

playing field can and in may cases should give a decided advantage to

certain characters. Balance, however, should be used to rate and account

for that advantage in relation to the rest of the system`s accounting for

levels, abilities, powers, etc.

Gary

I agree with your point of this thread being in need of a specification for what flavour is in contrast to campaign material. However, I have to disagree with your notion that the two are separate; in fact, campaign material encompasses both flavour and game-mechanics!

Let me recite a recent incident: I was discussing with one of my friends that I had not seen or spoken with for some time about the advantages of some 3.5e changes over their “old” 3e counterparts, especially concerning the ranger and bard classes, which were at last, in my humble opinion, best portrayed. When our conversation reached the matter of bards, initially referring to his loss of proficiency with the tower shield (only fighters get that now! B) ) and medium armour, both of which are logical, and his lack of arcane spell failure chance for wearing light armour ( :smiley: ), we went on discussing how proper it was that Bardic Music was as level-based as other such abilities of similar character/prestige classes were (see the Virtuoso from Song and Silence, or the Gleeman from The Wheel of Time).

We then went on, considering how appropriate it was to give a variable DC for the bard’s Suggestion ability, and other such tidbits, when we came to the matter of the Fascinate ability. I told him I loved the new version most because the bard can bedazzle an extra creature for every 3 class levels above 1st (when he initially acquires the ability), unlike the “strictly one creature” 3e theme. As I finished, he seemed extremely surprised: he told that’s how it worked in 3e too! I told him he was wrong: “I was playing a bard in our party, if you don’t remember.” Actually, one of the few things I am proud of is good bardic role-playing, and most people who played in the party knew I remembered all rules on Bardic Music (what can I say, I really love the guys!), so he considered it, and I went to pick up the 3e book to show him. After he saw what I was referring to, he said: “Well, in the party I am currently playing, George (our old DM, by the way) uses the same ruling for bards as 3.5e!”

That would be acceptable, and it would have ended then and there, but my friend went on with his line of thought (he also likes bards): “You know, I think it’s too bad that the rules don’t allow for bards to fascinate anyone within a given range; that’s pretty much what the actual effect really is, right?”

That is an example of putting flavour above game-mechanics. I agree that it sounds more realistic, but if a bard fascinated just about everyone within 30 feet, not 90 feet like the standard rules, it would be far too good…

I think a definition of “flavour” needs to be made first off… That is, there is not only flavour text and game mechanics, there are also campaign themes

While this is true, I think what you are missing here and in the rest of the post is a change in paradigm between 2nd and 3rd edition. The “game theme” has changed, and the issues you raise are, I believe, largely due to the attempt by the d20 BRCS to write in accordance with the new theme.
I happen to agree with the new theme. The new theme is, I believe, that of options, which implies balanced options, and of uniformity in mechanics. I think that’s a good theme, although it should be applied with caution.

For example:

Portraying bloodline in 3e is probably the most obvious example of what Im going to dub "3e formalism" for the sake of this issue. Making bloodline an ability score, a character class, a template, etc. are all methods that have been used in order to incorporate the idea into a 3e update. In fact, all one really needs is a way of accounting for the granted powers that fits into 3es mechanics, not a completely new way of portraying bloodline.

While I agree that in principle you could insert the 2nd Edition bloodline system pretty much as-is into the d20 BRCS, I don’t agree that is necessarily the best way to go.
The idea is to mirror the flavor of the old bloodline concept, not neccesarily the mechanics. I am not saying any of the above ideas are the way to go, but they are all merely attempts to create a bloodline system using the tools 3e provides. Nothing wrong with that. Just because some rule was something in 2nd Edition is NOT a good enough reason to preserve it.
The new theme of consistency and repetition in rule systems motivated all these approaches, and generally I think it is a good one. As I said above, however, it must be used with caution. For example, I believe the bloodline-as-ability does sin in this regard. While it is balanced, sort of, I personally feel that it loses some of the flavor of what bloodlines are. Bloodlines aren’t ability scores, they are divine essence. For that reason in my game have chosen not to use bloodline as a 7th ability score. I still use the same numbers, for convinience, but it just doesn’t function as an ability score.

The same can be said as to non-regent rulers (Options are Good is a 3e philosophy), dwarf wizards (again), and many other “converting the setting to fit the rules” cases.

For the record, in general I think the d20 BRCS team did a good (and ardous!) job, and managed to write rules emphasising many of the themes of BR in a d20-friendly manner. While I don’t always agree with their choices, they did a good job.
(As examples of pet peeves: non-blooded usurption rules would have never resulted in Deismaar, the flavor-change for dwarven wizardry is not well handled, the druids excel at the wizard’s area - nature, and oh so many others. But these are small in compared to the enormous work which is the d20 BRCS.)

I agree with your point of this thread being in need of a specification for what flavour is in contrast to campaign material. However, I have to disagree with your notion that the two are separate; in fact, campaign material encompasses both flavour and game-mechanics!

True. I think this is where it gets subjective though. I never played BR in 2nd Edition, and to be honest I haven’t played it much in 3rd. Perhaps this is why I am more inclined to see flavor in term of themes rather than specific rules.
While flavor can be conveyed through both, I think in converting BR you need to identify what you feel is setting flavor and retain it, whereas what is added to fit a system or idea not essentially BR-themed. Opinions will vary, of course.
For example, I see nothing wrong with non-scion rulers, in principle. I wouldn’t dream of disallowing someone the chance to try it out, if he wants to. That is improtant for me to preserve verisimilititude . But I don’t agree with the d20 BRCS saying that there are non-blooded in all layers of society, including the high-nobility. To me, that goes against the BR flavor, whereas the former doesn’t. From what geeman said, I believe he would consider the non-scion regents a breach of BR flavor, for the 2nd Edition rules did not allow it.
Flavor is in both rules and flavor text, but deciding what is flavor and what is “just rules” or “doesn’t uphold the themes of birthright, merely the rules edition” is highly subjective.

I think that this has strayed a little too far… Yet this could be an interesting discussion, so I will make this our first issue of discussion:

Where do you think the BRCS has emphasised too much on flavour, and where has it gone astray from flavour to support mechanics, making the new Cerilia insipid and inoriginal?

Where do you think the BRCS has emphasised too much on flavour, and where has it gone astray from flavour to support mechanics, making the new Cerilia insipid and inoriginal?

Just to give a few thoughts before I go to sleep:

Too Much Flavor: these are largely balance issues; I think every concept can be put in game mechanics, so the only vice possible here is to make the mechanics unbalanced.

  • Some blood abilities being too powerful (most of the boodform/trait chains); it should have been handled with more care to game balance. Because they were in 2nd Edition, the abilties remained in 3e on expense of game balance.
  • Some feats, the Great Heritage template, and other balancing gaffs (read: pet peeves) of mine.
  • Minor bloodlines having no ECL. RIIIGHT, they are that weak…
  • No Monks. Clinging to the flavor of 2E, we have decided to forgo this possiblity, creating less options in the game. (I am not entirely sure that was a bad call; it’s certainly a reasonable one.)
  • Wizards=Sorcerers socially. Again, for reasons of 2E flavor (there was no distinction in 2E, so we won’t in 3E) we lose a potential for deepening the variety of the campaign - this time, in terms of setting rather than playability. (Again, I am not at all sure this was a bad choice, but it does emphasise flavor over mechanics).

Too Much Mechanics: where by that I mean where sticking to certain mechanics leads to lost concepts or ideas, which is not to mean that the change is not for the better overall. While flavor is great, a confusing and large ruleset isn’t.

  • Bloodline as ability score (I said why above)
  • Lesser magic; in order to preserve the class abilities of bards and so on, this concept was somewhat damaged. There are good ideas in the d20 BRCS to handle this, but they are not carried out to fruition.
    • Much the same can be said about ranger divine magic, and druids. To preserve the classes, the designers chose to undermine the nature=true magic theme. IIRC the situation was the same in 2E, but that doesn’t make it right. As far as I am concerned, druids as true mages and rangers casting true magic is the proper rule to preserve BR flavor, and tradition be damned. As it stands, the current mechanics undermine what is one of the essential themes of BR (especially if druids are given source holdings!).
  • Dwarves’ lack of magic; a theme in 2E that disappeared in 3E, it added flavor that is now lost. The effect of true magic on dwarven society, or the possibility of dwarven magic, could have been more thoroughly explored.
  • Dwarves and stone; they can be made more stone-like using 3E tools such as racial prestige classes and feats. Perhaps the atlas will take care of this.
  • Halflings and shadows; now not every halfling can cross to shadow. I actually think that’s a good choice, as it also adds new campaign ideas and options, but it does lose some of the 2E flavor of the race.
  • Paladins for just a few gods. IIRC, the old version had paladins for nearly every god. Take a page out of The Book of the Rightous, and construct some Holy Warriors per faith. (I’m not certain it was a bad call, though: while less flavored, the extra rules will complicate the campaign while adding little.)
  • Clerics are all the same; in 2E they had differences. (Again, for simplicity’s sake, this may very well be a right choice, but I list it as it did lead to loss of flavor).

At 01:53 AM 10/9/2003 +0200, Yair wrote:

> - Paladins for just a few gods. IIRC, the old version had paladins for

> nearly every god.

Only Haelyn, Cuircaen, Neserie and Avani had paladins in the original

materials, and only for Anuireans and Khinasi characters–though the second

half of that rule was broken pretty dramatically. I`ve argued that there

should be paladins (or similarly “holy warrior” classes) for all the BR

gods, and examples have come out several times in various D20 sources,

Dragon, etc. that could be used for BR pretty easily.

There does need to be some more attention to the specific class abilities

for paladins in the BRCS. More sail/water based powers for paladins of

Neserie, and some of the alignment restrictions might be reviewed a bit

here and there too. Lawful neutral paladins dedicated to Avani, for

instance, would support some of the published materials. I`m also not

particularly sure paladins of Moradin is a good compromise for a 3e version

of the original BR materials that made dwarven fighter/priest one of the

more attractive character class options, but if dwarven paladins are to

remain in the setting then the ability to summon a warhorse should be

replaced with some ability less bizarre for a stubby dwarven holy warrior.

Gary

At 12:33 AM 10/9/2003 +0200, Yair wrote:

>

I think a definition of “flavour” needs to be made

> first off… That is, there is not only flavour text and game mechanics,

> there are also campaign themes

> While this is true, I think what you are missing here and in the rest of

> the post is a change in paradigm between 2nd and 3rd edition. The

> “game theme” has changed, and the issues you raise are, I

> believe, largely due to the attempt by the d20 BRCS to write in

> accordance with the new theme.

> I happen to agree with the new theme. The new theme is, I believe, that

> of options, which implies balanced options, and of uniformity in

> mechanics. I think that`s a good theme, although it should be applied

with caution.

I think you`ve pegged one of the changes between 2e and 3e thematically

(and to an even greater extent D20) which is something that can be very

useful for BR purposes. Several aspects of 3e`s “increased options” theme

can and should be employed in BR, but in general I dont think thats one

of the major aspects that`s been incorporated into the BRCS, nor should it

be. There isn`t the free for all of races, templates, prestige classes and

monsters in BR that there is in 3e, and going with a “more 3e” version of

things would make things necessarily “less BR.” Certain aspects of 3e`s

increased options make good sense for BR even though they`ve attracted a

lot of negative attention in the past. Free multi-classing for humans (and

all races) is one of the things that many folks were very vocal about when

it first came out–particularly with the way character class and regency

interact in BR–but there doesn`t seem to be much of an objection to it now.

I think many aspects of the “increased options” theme of 3e are good to

include in a BR update, but like any other aspect of such an update the

ones employed should be ones that either support BR themes or at least do

no harm to them.

>

Portraying bloodline in 3e is probably the most obvious example

> of what I`m going to dub “3e formalism” for the sake of this

issue. Making bloodline an ability score, a character class, a template,

etc. are all methods that have been used in order to incorporate the idea

into a 3e update. In fact, all one really needs is a way of accounting

for the granted powers that fits into 3e`s mechanics, not a completely

> new way of portraying bloodline.

> While I agree that in principle you could insert the 2nd Edition

> bloodline system pretty much as-is into the d20 BRCS, I don`t agree that

is necessarily the best way to go.

Im 100% with you on that one. In fact, Im one of the maniacal fanboys

who has completely rewritten bloodline for my own use (dubbed the Bloodline

Point system) and I don`t think that system very much resembles the

original bloodline system except in some of its broadest terms. The thing

is, it doesn`t resemble any 3e mechanics very much either. It references

other D20 products tangentially, but far more closely than it does anything

in one of the core texts. In regards to how blood abilities are portrayed

it is generally a superior system–if I do say so myself. (The parts about

bloodline strength and bloodline score could use a little tweaking as they

appear to be overly complex for most people`s taste. I also went with a

3d6 method of determining strength as a sort of nod to the BRCS`s bloodline

as an ability score method of portraying things. I`m not really married to

the mechanics of bloodline strength and score, however, so some changes are

probably in order.)

A simple translation of the bloodline system that stuck as closely as

possible to the original one would be better than bloodline as an ability

score IMO. I even prefer the strangeness of Table 12: Blood Ability

Acquisition to the ability score method.

Gary

[b]Too Much Flavor: these are largely balance issues; I think every concept can be put in game mechanics, so the only vice possible here is to make the mechanics unbalanced.

  • Some blood abilities being too powerful (most of the boodform/trait chains); it should have been handled with more care to game balance. Because they were in 2nd Edition, the abilties remained in 3e on expense of game balance.
  • Some feats, the Great Heritage template, and other balancing gaffs (read: pet peeves) of mine.
  • Minor bloodlines having no ECL. RIIIGHT, they are that weak…
  • No Monks. Clinging to the flavor of 2E, we have decided to forgo this possiblity, creating less options in the game. (I am not entirely sure that was a bad call; it’s certainly a reasonable one.)
  • Wizards=Sorcerers socially. Again, for reasons of 2E flavor (there was no distinction in 2E, so we won’t in 3E) we lose a potential for deepening the variety of the campaign - this time, in terms of setting rather than playability. (Again, I am not at all sure this was a bad choice, but it does emphasise flavor over mechanics).[/b]

Right, as the only member of the original developers who seems to still be around at I’ll try to answer some of your points.

  1. Bloodtrait/Bloodform
    I don’t think balance really comes into it with these two abilties. They are there for a specific reason, to provide for the transformation of characters into Awnsheghlien and Erhsheghlien (primarily NPCs too, not players). They are certainly powerful, but necessary. If you have any balance issues with other bloodline abilities let me know and I’ll try to address them.

  2. Feats/Great Heritage/No ECL for minor scions.
    Some feats will be reworked in the revised BRCS. I don’t have the full list on me, but there are a few that need changing. I have a lot of problems with the whole bloodline chapter (I personally do not use the 7th ability score and use a bloodline system very similar to the original). On that, I’d like to see something like the following as a means of determining bloodlines.

Strength…Range…Roll…ECL…Abilities
Tainted…1-10…1d10…None…1 minor
Minor…11-20…1d10…+1…2 minor, 1 major
Major…21-40…1d20…+2…3 minor, 2 major, 1 great
Great…41-60…1d20…+3…4 minor, 3 major, 2 great
True…50+…Special…Special…5 minor, 4 major, 3 great

I’m not saying that’s the final version, but just something I came up with quickly. The main thing I’d like to see is some reduction in the amount of material you have to wade through to determine your bloodline. A simple table like this would work better.

  1. No Monks
    If you want Monks, then add them. End of story…

  2. This is something of a concern in the whole 3E rules actually, sorcerers are really little more than wizards with different spellcasting rules. In the work I’ve been doing on Aduria I have actually dropped wizards all together and then created a wizard-like class called a Shadow Mage. Obviously there is more of a difference there, sorcerers draw on mebhaighl, shadow mages draw on awnmebhaighl, the magic of the shadow world to cast their spells.

[b]Too Much Mechanics: where by that I mean where sticking to certain mechanics leads to lost concepts or ideas, which is not to mean that the change is not for the better overall. While flavor is great, a confusing and large ruleset isn’t.

  • Bloodline as ability score (I said why above)
  • Lesser magic; in order to preserve the class abilities of bards and so on, this concept was somewhat damaged. There are good ideas in the d20 BRCS to handle this, but they are not carried out to fruition.
  • Much the same can be said about ranger divine magic, and druids. To preserve the classes, the designers chose to undermine the nature=true magic theme. IIRC the situation was the same in 2E, but that doesn’t make it right. As far as I am concerned, druids as true mages and rangers casting true magic is the proper rule to preserve BR flavor, and tradition be damned. As it stands, the current mechanics undermine what is one of the essential themes of BR (especially if druids are given source holdings!).
  • Dwarves’ lack of magic; a theme in 2E that disappeared in 3E, it added flavor that is now lost. The effect of true magic on dwarven society, or the possibility of dwarven magic, could have been more thoroughly explored.
  • Dwarves and stone; they can be made more stone-like using 3E tools such as racial prestige classes and feats. Perhaps the atlas will take care of this.
  • Halflings and shadows; now not every halfling can cross to shadow. I actually think that’s a good choice, as it also adds new campaign ideas and options, but it does lose some of the 2E flavor of the race.
  • Paladins for just a few gods. IIRC, the old version had paladins for nearly every god. Take a page out of The Book of the Rightous, and construct some Holy Warriors per faith. (I’m not certain it was a bad call, though: while less flavored, the extra rules will complicate the campaign while adding little.)
  • Clerics are all the same; in 2E they had differences. (Again, for simplicity’s sake, this may very well be a right choice, but I list it as it did lead to loss of flavor).[/b]
  1. Lesser Magic
    I orginally thought the idea of cutting the bard spell list to just lesser magic spells a good idea. It does require some work, and you would need to introduce some new spells (perhaps some unique to bards) to replace those lost, but it is something I thought would work. No one else went with that idea at the time, but if I’m left to work on the revision of the BRCS on my own, it may be something I consider adding. By the way, I’ll set a tentative release date of the revised BRCS AND the Atlas of Cerilia of around january next year. Both book don’t have many people still writing for them, so that has increased the time it will take to complete them.

  2. Nature=True Magic and Rangers and Druids.
    I concor with your thoughts on this. Already dicussing this on another thread though.

  3. Dwarves and Halflings.
    From what I’ve seen of the revisions so far, nothing much has changed, apart from the damage reduction thingy (DR 4/slashing or piercing now, or something like that).
    Halflings I also like, not a lot of major changes needed there.

  4. Paladins and priests.
    I also like the idea of paladins for all religions. As for priests/clerics, I’d have to say that the 2E rules for these speciality priest were unbalanced, but I did like the differences between the religions. I’m proposing changing the domains for the clerics to make them more unique (and to restrict certain news spells that I’m working on just to clerics of a certain faith). Another option is to have a different list of class skills for different faiths, or something like that. The Atlas will also feature some prestige classes for specific religions, but not one for each…

Anyway, that’s all I can post for now. I have to dash, Dr Who is coming on TV.

Ian, while I wasn’t one of the original BRCS team members (Jan and I were added in the first expansion), I have been the only one to post regularly since the playtest document was issued for playtesting – at least twice a week and usually more frequently. It does appear as if the rest are on a walkabout. This has caused me delays in rewriting Chapt 2, since I really need some more info from Jan. Regarding the rewrite of Chap 2, in the next few days I’ll post a progress on the board so all you all (hey I live in Virginia) can see what I’m planning on doing. It is based on the polls and what people said they preferred.

I think some of this discussion was moved forward too quickly. For one, I don’t believe that everyone is on the same page when it comes down to defining what is campaign setting material, what are mechanics and what constitutes flavor. Really until then there will always be conflicting opinions and hence the discussions will focus towards “What I want or what I use based upon my own house-rules.” This is to be expected due to the very individualistic focus of D&D itself – it is and always has been a game that promotes creating house-rules and individual campaign settings.

IMO (everything is my take on things not the way things are):

Campaign setting information is what sets apart one setting from another, or what deviates from the “core rules”. Basically it is defining the size of the canvas and the materials to be used when creating a painting.

Examples of things that are and are not campaign setting information;
Dwarves can’t be wizards. In 2nd ed this is not setting material since this was the standard rule and dwarves were not allowed to be wizards at all. I have never seen a TSR 2nd ed setting that allowed them to be wizards.
Elves can’t be priests. In 2nd ed this is definitely a campaign setting material since the standard was that elves could be priests (its the same in 3rd ed).
Druids must be gain their power from Erik. This is also definitely campaign setting definition material. In 2nd ed (and 3rd ed) druids didn’t gain their powers from the gods but from nature itself.
Specific info on the Cerilian races, dwarves, elves, halflings are all campaign definition material since they are specific deviations from the core.
The fact that the old gods died, spilt their blood on those around which granted them abilities and leadership far above those that didn’t receive this divine gift and those who received the benefit of the old gods’ spilt blood could actually steal this gift from others. New gods arose to replace the expired ones. These are all campaign setting definition material.
The fact that magic (arcane) was divided into true and lesser magic and only those with the divine gift of blood or of elven blood could cast true magic is also campaign definition material since it also deviates from the core.
Priests of different gods have different focuses. This is campaign specific material, but this one also crosses into the mechanics issues.

Mechanics issues are those things that are tied into a specific game mechanic system. This would be the criteria used for judging the painting or if you use oils then you must do the following to prep the canvas and brushes, allow so much time to dry, etc.

Examples of things that are game mechanics issues:
Skills and feats in d20 vice proficiencies in 2nd ed.
Character level with no restrictions on multi-classing, except for those defined by the campaign setting material, in 3rd ed vice the restriction of classes and levels in 2nd ed.
Specialty priests in 2nd ed use of minor and major access to spheres and granted abilities while 3rd ed uses domains which have granted powers associated with them. Technically both are specialty priests, but 2nd ed and 3rd ed use different game mechanics to handle them.

Flavor issues are the things that fill the gaps. In the painting issue this would be eye appeal, since it depends on how it is viewed and by whom. Flavor issues are those things that have no game mechanics used to support or define them.

Examples of things that are flavor issues:

Dwarves eat rocks. This has no game mechanic issues involved and really adds nothing but color.
Stabbing through the heart in order to accomplish bloodtheft. There were no mechanics written that specified how this was to be done. There were mechanics specified as to how a transfer of blood score was done once this action was done but nothing really given to define how to do this.
Sayim. This has no real game mechanic involved, but it does add flavor towards the Khinasi philosophy of life.

Didn`t they have dwarven wizards in some of the old greyhawk stuff?

I`ve read novels where that happened.. err I think…

-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of irdeggman

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:20 PM

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: Flavour Vs. Game-mechanics [36#1997]

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1997

irdeggman wrote:

Ian, while I wasn`t one of the original BRCS team members (Jan and I

were added in the first expansion), I have been the only one to post

regularly since the playtest document was issued for playtesting - at

least twice a week and usually more frequently. It does appear as if

the rest are on a walkabout. This has caused me delays in rewriting

Chapt 2, since I really need some more info from Jan. Regarding the

rewrite of Chap 2, in the next few days I`ll post a progress on the

board so all you all (hey I live in Virginia) can see what I`m planning

on doing. It is based on the polls and what people said they preferred.

I think some of this discussion was moved forward too quickly. For

one, I don`t believe that everyone is on the same page when it comes

down to defining what is campaign setting material, what are mechanics

and what constitutes flavor. Really until then there will always be

conflicting opinions and hence the discussions will focus towards

“What I want or what I use based upon my own house-rules.”

This is to be expected due to the very individualistic focus of D&D

itself - it is and always has been a game that promotes creating

house-rules and individual campaign settings.

IMO (everything is my take on things not the way things are):

Campaign setting information is what sets apart one setting from

another, or what deviates from the “core rules”. Basically it

is defining the size of the canvas and the materials to be used when

creating a painting.

Examples of things that are and are not campaign setting information;

Dwarves can`t be wizards.  In 2nd ed this is not setting material

since this was the standard rule and dwarves were not allowed to be

wizards at all. I have never seen a TSR 2nd ed setting that allowed

them to be wizards.

Elves can`t be priests.  In 2nd ed  this is definitely a campaign

setting material since the standard was that elves could be priests (its

the same in 3rd ed).

Druids must be gain their power from Erik.  This is also definitely

campaign setting definition material. In 2nd ed (and 3rd ed) druids

didn`t gain their powers from the gods but from nature itself.

Specific info on the Cerilian races, dwarves, elves, halflings are

all campaign definition material since they are specific deviations from

the core.

The fact that the old gods died, spilt their blood on those around

which granted them abilities and leadership far above those that didn`t

receive this divine gift and those who received the benefit of the old

gods` spilt blood could actually steal this gift from others. New gods

arose to replace the expired ones. These are all campaign setting

definition material.

The fact that magic (arcane) was divided into true and lesser magic

and only those with the divine gift of blood or of elven blood could

cast true magic is also campaign definition material since it also

deviates from the core.

Priests of different gods have different focuses. This is campaign

specific material, but this one also crosses into the mechanics issues.

Mechanics issues are those things that are tied into a specific game

mechanic system. This would be the criteria used for judging the

painting or if you use oils then you must do the following to prep the

canvas and brushes, allow so much time to dry, etc.

Examples of things that are game mechanics issues:

Skills and feats in d20 vice proficiencies in 2nd ed.

Character level with no restrictions on multi-classing, except for

those defined by the campaign setting material, in 3rd ed vice the

restriction of classes and levels in 2nd ed.

Specialty priests in 2nd ed use of minor and major access to spheres

and granted abilities while 3rd ed uses domains which have granted

powers associated with them. Technically both are specialty priests,

but 2nd ed and 3rd ed use different game mechanics to handle them.

Flavor issues are the things that fill the gaps. In the painting issue

this would be eye appeal, since it depends on how it is viewed and by

whom. Flavor issues are those things that have no game mechanics used

to support or define them.

Examples of things that are flavor issues:

Dwarves eat rocks.  This has no game mechanic issues involved and

really adds nothing but color.

Stabbing through the heart in order to accomplish bloodtheft.  There

were no mechanics written that specified how this was to be done. There

were mechanics specified as to how a transfer of blood score was done

once this action was done but nothing really given to define how to do

this.

Sayim.  This has no real game mechanic involved, but it does add

flavor towards the Khinasi philosophy of life.



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

Thank you for coming in, Raesene Andu and Irdeggman. I assure you that we appreciate your work on the setting. [Insert BIG thumbs up.]

----- Original Message -----

From: “Andrew Casey” <accasey@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:56 AM

> Didn`t they have dwarven wizards in some of the old greyhawk stuff?

I`ve read novels where that happened.. err I think…

Perhaps you are recalling the savants of the dark dwarven gods Diirinka and

Diinkarazan. They were effectivly wizards in the direct service of their

gods.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

I think some of this discussion was moved forward too quickly. For one, I don`t believe that everyone is on the same page when it comes down to defining what is campaign setting material, what are mechanics
and what constitutes flavor. Really until then there will always be conflicting opinions and hence the discussions will focus towards “What I want or what I use based upon my own house-rules.”

I agree in principle, but… I want my house rules in :smiley:

Actually, those look like excellent definitions, irdeggman.

Raesene Andu wrote:

1. Bloodtrait/Bloodform
I don’t think balance really comes into it with these two abilties. They are there for a specific reason, to provide for the transformation of characters into Awnsheghlien and Erhsheghlien (primarily NPCs too, not players). They are certainly powerful, but necessary. If you have any balance issues with other bloodline abilities let me know and I’ll try to address them.

And lots of other things… but discussing all of this will kidnap the thread.
I’ll start another.

There is something to consider when you deal with the whole issue of flavour vs mechanics vs campaign setting and the overal philosophy of 3x edition rules.

Anytime you change the mechanics or flavour or setting so that it contradicts the rules or even flavour of 3x edition yo risk losing the people who joined 3e D&D. I quite Ad&D just after unearthed arcana for 1e came out. the reason was that there was no skills in the game (except for theives) and their was un reasoned restrictions in teh game all for teh sake of game balance which ironicaly could be bypassed via dual or multiclassing thus making the balanced arguement pretty weak. #e creates a system that provides more choice to teh player and helps eliminate teh cardboard cutouts that aD&D created, in both 1e and 2e. i came back to AD&D to try 2e but found that it was still teh “old” game with some minor changes. The spirit of the game was still the same.

3e changed the spirit of D&D and created a game that i could live with. BUT in so doing they hurt some of their die hard fan base but they gained far more people than they ever lost. The danger is if you return BR to the spirit of the restrictive nature of 2e rules you will lose the 3e fans of the BR setting and we do exist. The idea of dwarven wizards is greatly embraced by a vast majority of 3e players as it provides more flavour to game worlds because it creates more options and more possibilities. But others argue that the sameness of the races creates a loss of flavour.

Old doesnt equal better but likewise new doesnt equal better either. The team Will do the community a better service if they create a 3x edition birthright setting than create d20 rules for BR. This may seem like its the same thing but its is not nor are the differences subtle. I think you have to take the core spirit of 3e and create a BR setting to fit those rules than take the old 2e BR setting and add d20 rules for that system. Here is my reasoning.

The purests will likely prefer the 2e rules set over any rules using d20 simply because teh 2e rules are best at keeping the spirit and mechanics of teh old 2e setting. However the people who hate 2e and play 3e will really chafe at any 2e like limitations showing up in a 3e BR setting. I really hate the idea of alignment restrictions for elves harkens back to 2e limitations for me. (Mind you my group doesnt even use alignemnt uses all aligment based spells and changes them to be outsider or undead or unatural specific as opposed to evil, good, lawful or choatic speific. Makes for subtle morality plays and eliminates a role-playing tool that is designed more for children than grown adults.)

Balance is almost imposible to achieve in a BR setting. The reasoning behind it is that you have two seperate campaign types for the characters you have the regent level type of game and the adventure level type of game. What balances out for one is often not a balance for the other. The blood abilities of invulnerable are HUGE in the adventure setting but I’d rather have the ability of Enhanced sense (great)- [Masela] in the regent setting of the game. The ability to hear my characters name and anything said about my character provided both me and the speakers are ouside and within a 10 MILE radius. Is enormous add in the fact that I play mostly sidhelien and you can see the huge advantage this great power has over Invulnerability But again only in the regent campaign setting. In an adventure based game I’d rather be invulnerable. So how do you balance these two blood abilities? You cant and any attempt to do so would destroy the powers. Whats a great blood ability for adventuring is not a great ability in the regent level game and vise versa.

Feats also fall into this catagory Master admin. isnt really a great feat for an adventure based game but is a “must have” in a regent level based game.
How can you balance these two areas? What give you a benifit in one level of the BR setting provides you with little or no value in another level of the BR setting.

Which would you rather have the dodge feat or the master administator feat? The answer would really depend on if you are playing a party based adventure level game or a regent level game. This creates a problem with balancing feats. Skill based feats in an adventure level game are not really all that powerful even if you doubled their bonus. But in the regent game they are extremly powerful. Having a regent level character with a dodge feat that game you +2 ac bonus isnt all that great when such a feat would be so very powerful in and adventure level game.

So the question becomes is balance possible? or perhaps should you only try to balance the adventure level part of the game? is a scion’s blood abilities really worth the level adjustments? I’d say no way. And even the optional rules in chapter 8 that give early leadersip or special equipment or bodyguards dont make up for 1 to 3 levels. and yet if you had a character with invulnerable even at a 3 level penalty you would be unbalanced. And what happens if you have a low blood score does the +4 or +8 really make up the difference since you cant use the major or great blood powers even with the bonus to the score? Perhaps a better way to deal with level adjustments is to place level adjustments to the actual power chosen NOT the blood strength level. So if you take less powerful blood powers you arent penalised 1 or 2 or 3 levels because your powers are not unbalancing.
Does a character the chooses alerntess, character reading and greater long life with an 18 blood score really equal a character with a ECL +2 penalty? Even with the modifiers given from the variant rules in chapter 8 isnt any 3rd level character going to be more powerful than this example? And those powers are far from useless. It just goes to show that making level adjustments based on blood strength is flawed and will always be flawed but making them based on the powers chosen, is likely to bear better fruit.

I dont claim to know the answers here but I see a problem with trying to balance a game who’s scope is so great that at one end a feat or power is almost worthless but on the other end its a game breaker. The danger with balancing things to much is they lose all flavour. Take psionics the old rules where so unbalanced that most peope ignored the rules all together. Made psionics the uber weapon so that you either had to create a darksun setting where psionics where a dime a dozen or you just eliminated them all together like the dragon lance setting. Psionics has potential but their imbalance made them useless (ie no DM/Gm in his or her right mind would allow them is most campaigns) Now lets looks at 3e psionics. They ruined everything that was great about psionics in the old system and made them into just another spell system. Psyonics are simply spells in 3e that use spell points vs spell slots. All the flavour of psyonics is lost in teh new rules. While they are now balance and completely intergrateable into the 3e rules they have lost all flavour. The danger with blood powers is that you either balance them out so “perfectly” that they lose all the unique flavour of the powers or you go nuts on the other end create powers so over the top that they create super characters. The only way I see of creating a balaced approach is to tie the powers to a ECL rating and not blood strength.

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1997

> Airgedok wrote:

> 3e changed the spirit of D&D and created a game that i could live with. BUT in so doing

>they hurt some of their die hard fan base but they gained far more

people than they ever lost.

> The danger is if you return BR to the spirit of the restrictive

nature of 2e rules you will

>lose the 3e fans of the BR setting and we do exist. The idea of

dwarven wizards is greatly

> embraced by a vast majority of 3e players

I would be really interested to know how much that are. Please provide

me with the absolute number of 3E players and the percentage of those

who greatly embrace dwarven wizards. As you state this as a fact, I

assume to give me both numbers is no problem to you? :wink:

>as it provides more flavour to game worlds because it creates more

options and more

>possibilities.

To provide more options does not necessarily add to flavour. Being able

to play the talking parrot of the half-celestial/half-minotaur

monk-pirate-assasin with snirfneblin parents is an option. One could

also play just about anything. However how much sense that would make is

the question. Would you play a Minotaur in a game-world that exactly

mirrors our own nowadays world (and expect anything else except to be

immediately captured and cut in pieces for science?).

Or even more fantastic: Playing the lasersword wielding monk of the

vulcan race - needless to say that I insist on playing him in the

Birthright setting, as 3E is all about options, isnt´t it?

>But others argue that the sameness of the races creates a loss of flavour.

That is a true statement. Races are described in a way that adds flavour

to a setting. Be it the immortal elves of Lord of the Rings or whatever.

You certainly can insist on playing for example in a Midgard setting an

elf, with a height of 1 meter 30 centimetres, who is fat and slow and

suffers from pneumonia since his birth while being awful at bowshooting

or with the sword, and looks exactly like Gollum. But why then should it

be an elf to begin with?

(Not that there are no clumsy sidhelien - I laughged about the one

sidhelien who stumbled over his own feet in the novel Greatheart…)

>(Mind you my group doesnt even use alignemnt uses all aligment based

spells and changes them to

> be outsider or undead or unatural specific as opposed to evil, good, lawful or choatic speific.

>Makes for subtle morality plays and eliminates a role-playing tool that is designed more for

>children than grown adults.)

Alignment is a tool that can be used regardless of age of the player. It

is a skeleton of behaviour to expect. A guideline an actor is given how

to perform on stage.

No Lawful or Evil character need to act the same, even in the same

situation. Even a good and evil character might act in the same

situation in the same way - just out of different motivations (I am the

good paladin of my god: I always rescue damsels in distress as opposed

to I am the evil rogue: I expect a huge reward for rescuing that lady

and safely returning her to her father the baron)

>The blood abilities of invulnerable are HUGE in the adventure setting but I`d rather have the

ability of Enhanced sense (great)- [Masela] in the regent setting of the

game. The ability to

hear my characters name and anything said about my character provided

both me and the speakers

are ouside and within a 10 MILE radius. Is enormous add in the fact

that I play mostly sidhelien

and you can see the huge advantage this great power has over

Invulnerability But again only in

the regent campaign setting. In an adventure based game I`d rather be

invulnerable. So how do

you balance these two blood abilities? You cant and any attempt to do

so would destroy the

powers.

Only how you perceive the powers and you DM interpretes them. I could

imagine a DM who thinks just like you that hearing anything spoken about

you in ten miles would be too good - so your character constantly hears

dozens of people speaking about him at the same time, barely able to

understand it mixed up as it is and fleeing to the barren wilderness

whenever he can to enjoy a few moments of peace from the voices in his head

You did assume that you only hear what you wanted to hear and what was

interesting for you, did you? :wink:

Perhaps I as the greedy and evil guilder planning to take over your

realm would pay 200 men to talk about you around the clock to drive you

insane and deny you any rest 24 hours a day… (while talking about you

only WITHOUT NAMING YOUR NAME - so you would hear nothing helpful for

you…)

You overrate the importance of that ability. The devil and most major

villains are rumoured to have that ability (even if in reality they only

have good spys) and so people avoid naming their names and use nicknames.

> I dont claim to know the answers here but I see a problem with trying to balance a game who`s

> scope is so great that at one end a feat or power is almost worthless but on the other end its

>a game breaker. The danger with balancing things to much is they lose all flavour. Take psionics

>the old rules where so unbalanced that most peope ignored the rules all together. Made psionics

> the uber weapon so that you either had to create a darksun setting where psionics where a dime a

> dozen or you just eliminated them all together like the dragon lance setting.

And the Birthright setting…

bye

Michael

Balance… the Scales of Power to most people that shall never rest in the middle… or maybe the Gallows of Truth?

First of all, this post and its remarks are not assaults directed at anyone from the site. Thank you.

It is interesting how much misconception I have seen over this one matter that could be so easilly figured out had people had the sense to overcome their own fears and raise the blindfold above their eyes… Before you shout my head off, I would like to propose a question: What is Balance?

I have heard outcries that Balance does not exist. I can accept this as much as that there is no real logic in anything: the truth of such calims is mostly strengthened by the claimers’ irresponsibility to work based on pure, square logic, just as most people who refuse to accept the basic and golden rule of RPGs - YOU make the rules. Period. - criticise games for their rules. In fact, most of the latter I know of really do not take their time to do anything on their own - new rules, for example - or abuse rules as they see fit!

In the end, I understand that Balance also comes up as an issue even for those who accept its existence. For what is Balance, I ask one more?

As it seems, most people idealise the concept of Balance, thinking it is a rare quotient in the real world, one that, if achieved, allows a GM to work out his game without taking into account how powerful his players really are, since they are equally powerful!

But this is the trap they fall in: Balance is not about how many people can you pummel to the ground when compared with another character; if it was like that, a wizard would wield a sword just as easilly as a fighter, without being in need of taking the appropriate feat! That is the misconception most people realise they have made!

Balance, in truth, is how much can a character provide to an adventuring party. A bard, for example, rarely is a real threat to a wizard, fighter, or cleric, if he fights them alone. Balance is how much will he be able to help within his own limits in any given situation! Fighters are always helpful when it comes to muscle and strategy, barbarians to REAL muscle, rogues to slyness, rangers to stealth, wizards to versatility of magic, sorcerers to fire power, clerics to supporting others, druids to nature mastery, “holy warriors” to fighting their particular enemies (evil, good, law, chaos, outsiders, [whatever]), and bards at helping with anything and anyone, particulalry negotiations!

I’ve been thinking about the issue of balance relative to D&D lately. The discussion on feats and skills has brought up an interesting point concerning the D&D version of balance: it is EXTREMELY combat-focused. The 3.x rules focus on combat abilities as the primary measure of power for a given character or monster.

Take the feats, for example: ever notice that the most core feats with prerequisites are combat-specific? Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Improved 2-Weapon Fighting, the Archery feats, etc. Yet not a single skill-enhancing feat has a prerequisite. Thankfully, 3.5 did add a nice selection of “paired” skill-boosting feats (Stealthy, et al, adding +2 to 2 related skills), yet any of these is available at any time, as if they’re very secondary in power, and it is not unbalancing for any character to take these at any time. To me, this speaks clearly to the fact that skills take a back seat to combat ability in D&D.

If we look closely, we’ll see that spells and magic items were made (and remade) in a similar spirit. Ever notice how cheap an item is that adds +10 to a skill?!? That’s like saying “You just added 10 levels of experience to your Hide skill thanks to that Cloak of Elvenkind!” Yet compare to the massive expense of a +5 weapon or even +5 armor, not to mention +10 weapons, which are strictly epic. The message here is loud and clear: “A character’s combat abilities are the key issue when deciding game balance. Skills, on the other hand, may reach epic (“superhuman”) proportions very early in the game, and that’s OK.”

So here we have a reiteration of a classic theme: D&D is, at its heart, a hack and slash game, with all the other aspects of adventuring and roleplaying a set of secondary “flavor elements” that can help flesh out the adventure. But the battles are what’s important. That’s why there are detailed rules for XP awards for victory in battle, but only vague guidelines for story based awards, and these are distinctly “optional.”

Don’t get me wrong: skill sets and points are obviously figured in to class balance, it’s just they are considered of secondary importance compared to “what fighting stats, spells, and abilities can this character lend to a fight?”

Keep in mind that this entire post is really dedicated to interpreting the “spirit” of the D&D ruleset and where those designers have focused their attentions regarding game balance.

In Birthright, however, we cannot directly translate D&D and still keep things balanced on the political level. Social interactions are a key aspect of politics, and skills in general are of primary importance. Imagine the modest 5th level general who acquires a 2000gp Crown of Command (a “minor item” in D&D terms) that adds +10 to his Warcraft checks. Suddenly he’s one of Anuire’s greatest field commanders!

Skills are extremely important in Birthright, and in order to keep balance I believe a reorganization of rule priorities, and especially these magically enhanced bonuses, must be taken into account to keep the Birthright world balanced. Allowing magic items to mimic the bonuses from feats would be far more appropriate. At best, let them be similar to ability enhancers (+2/+4/+6), and have their costs reflect their utility in the game (not as valuable as ability enhancements, but more than the dirt-cheap rates that are currently set for them).