Hey. It posted half of my original post again. But only half. Wierd. So, since I can’t delete it, I’m editing it.
bye.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Vallariel wrote:
> Why not make the Gheallie Sidhe a special training option rather than a
> special elven unit?My thoughts: Looking at two elves standing around,
> you cannot say if one is Gheallie Sidhe or Neut. (At least not until he
> opens his mouth… 
)And if the Gheallie Sidhe is meant to be more of
> a violent hit and run unit, if would seem to me that having that option
> for Archers or Cavalry might be a good idea. The Gheallie Sidhe could be
> a special training option like Scouting or Toughness available only to
> Elves. This way, it could be applied to any Elven unit rather than it
> being based on a Knight or Cavalry unit as is popular.
Gheallie Sidhe means “Ride of the Elves”. Mounted units are the ones that
would tend to fall under this aegis, don`t you think?
–
Daniel McSorley
Daniel McSorley schrieb:
>On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Vallariel wrote:
>
>
>>Why not make the Gheallie Sidhe a special training option rather than a
>>special elven unit?My thoughts: Looking at two elves standing around,
>>you cannot say if one is Gheallie Sidhe or Neut. (At least not until he
>>opens his mouth… )And if the Gheallie Sidhe is meant to be more of
>>a violent hit and run unit, if would seem to me that having that option
>>for Archers or Cavalry might be a good idea. The Gheallie Sidhe could be
>>a special training option like Scouting or Toughness available only to
>>Elves. This way, it could be applied to any Elven unit rather than it
>>being based on a Knight or Cavalry unit as is popular.
>>
>>
>Gheallie Sidhe means “Ride of the Elves”. Mounted units are the ones that
>would tend to fall under this aegis, don`t you think?
>Daniel McSorley
>
>
Ride of the Elves? The 2E Ruins of empire (p. 55) under the Tuarhievel
entry had “Hunt of the Elves” which would not necessarirly
mean mounted.
bye
Michael
At 07:56 PM 9/2/2003 +0200, Vallariel wrote:
>The Gheallie Sidhe could be a special training option like Scouting or
>Toughness available only to Elves.
“Favored Enemy: Human” seems like a good way to describe the GS in an
adventure level. Bonuses on damage vs human units would probably be enough
to justify their powers at a large scale unit level. Other things like the
“scout” descriptor, whether they are mounted or infantry, irregulars or
trained units could all be variables.
Gary
I just posted a related comment on the “Nature school for Elvens wizards” thread: (should I repost this, or just give a pointer?)
My own personal view of Elves and Dwarves, especially when they are under population pressure, is that both groups are more reluctant to fight, both outsiders and other members of their race, but when they do fight, they fight to kill. Banners and ribbons and shields and trumpets–these matter little to demi-humans.
Among other traits, I think that Elves would be less likely than most races to meet on fixed fields of battle. With stealth and low light vision, Elves would be terrible guerilla fighters. If the Elves decided that you should die, one day you would just never wake up. The combination of slight stature, and the prospect of eternal life, if not killed by other creatures, would lead to a race of snipers. And by this I do not mean +2 on missle combat. I mean, the regent takes off a day to go hunting and never returns.
One interesting possible extention of Geeman’s ‘Fallen Humanity’ concept is “Half-Elves Ascendent”. One good strategy for Elves would be to insinuate themselves into the human ruling class, and make Elven blood a mark of status among humans. By allying themselves with major human bloodlines, and offering some of their scions in marriage, they could create a class of Noble Half-Elves with genetic ties to to the Elves, and create some very interesting diplomatic interactions. How would you like to live an extra 150 years? Or failing that, have your heir live an extra 150 years?
Among other things, I think that the long lives of Elves, and to a lesser extent, dwarves are vastly underrated in terms of game implications. What if every elf, male and female, had to serve for 50 years in the Elven Militia (call it what you will). Even a very lazy elf would probably attain 3rd level as a ranger or druid, and could go up to 10-12th. Imagine an entire nation of 3-10th level rangers who sing/make pottery/paint/craft furnture/etc because they prefer it. What would happen if you enraged such a people? What would happen to a human province if 1,000 ticked off 5th level Elven rangers invaded, in bands of 6 to 12? Ugly! Ugly! Ugly!
In the quality/quantity fight two very important factors are concentration of force, and replentishment rate. It the quanity side can bring a significant fraction of it’s forces to bear at once, and replentish them rapidly, they will win. Conversely, if the quality side can pick their battles, keep the quanity side off balance, and disrupt reinforcements, they will win.
After a full human lifetime of facing 3 HD orogs in constricted caves, the average dwarf would be to the average human as the average special forces Sgt Major is to the average Army private coming out of infantry combat school.
I like Geeman’s idea of “favored enemy: human” as explaining the extra deadliness of these units. I don’t see any fair way to implement my “immortal hardcases” concept of elves within the realm of the BR rules.
Hmm, maybe the Elves could force opposing human regents to burn realm actions dealing with “Monsters: Elves” as the Gheallie Sidhe Units commit murder in the dark of night.
Here is my idea for the Gheallie Sidhe. It is very similar to the specialty holdings.
There can only be one unit for a regent.
It can not be the Renown Unit, but I can see it being the unit from the Leadership Feat.
The unit is powered by a source holding. While the Gheallie Sidhe is in existense the source holding produces no RP or power any spells or Ley Lines. (This is similar to the spell Stronghold.)
The benifits are that the source provides “Virtual GB” as is it was a guild/temple (2/3 GB per source level). These “Virtual GBs” can only be used to pay for the following training options:
Advanced Training:Melee- Unit’s weapons become magical
(magic weapon or greater magic weapon)
Advanced Training:Missile- Unit’s weapons become magical
(greater magic weapon)
Advanced Training:Defense- Unit’s armor become magical
(abjuration type defenses)
Advanced Training:Morale- Hatred is fueled and the increase in fury carries them into battle.
Toughness- There is not an increase in the units strenght, but abjuration/transmutation makes each attack do less damage. (Similar to DR or the endure elements and protection from missiles spells)
An interesting bit of information is that of all the races in Cerilia the elves are the only ones to have been at war with all of the other ones at different times. Well maybe not Orogs, but definitely dwarves, humans and goblins.
Something like that tends towards a view of racial intolerance, just my 2 cp.
I don’t count halflings here because they are not native to Cerlilia.
Dwarves have been at war with elves, orogs and I believe goblins but not humans.
Goblins could quite possibly be like the elves in that they have been at war with all of the other races, I’m not certain about any goblin-dwarf war though.
The Dwarven/Sidhe war was a short lived affair – I’ve always run with it being less than 200 years in length, and was really nothing more than low-level skirmishes.
I am throwing into the B-A section of the Atlas that it initiated when the first Karamhul colonies on the surface appeared, and were cut off from coal to run their forges, so they started cutting the forests. The war eventually petered out when the Sidhe saw that the Karamhul were not expanding on the surface like the just-arrived humans were. There was an agreement reached that the Karamhul would not make any attempt to inhabit the deep forests of the Aelvinwode, and the Sidhe would not press any claim to the high mountains.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Athos69” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 1:43 PM
> I am throwing into the B-A section of the Atlas that it initiated
> when the first Karamhul colonies on the surface appeared
Do you have some compelling explanation of how underground societies get
sufficent energy without Avani? Or are we operating on the
floating-city-level of fantasy here?
Kenneth Gauck
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Do you have some compelling explanation of how underground societies get
> sufficent energy without Avani? Or are we operating on the
> floating-city-level of fantasy here?
The dwarves of cerilia actually have less of a problem here than normal
dwarves- they`re more earthy, and can subsist off of some kinds of rocks
if they have to. Couple that with underground lakes for fish, and maybe
some fungus, and dwarves can bootstrap their way into growth.
–
Daniel McSorley
----- Original Message -----
From: “Daniel McSorley” <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 5:35 PM
> The dwarves of cerilia actually have less of a problem here than normal
> dwarves- they`re more earthy, and can subsist off of some kinds of rocks
if they have to. Couple that with underground lakes for fish, and maybe
some fungus, and dwarves can bootstrap their way into growth.
This the floating city level of fantasy. Attempting to add up all of the
sources of food and their probable nutritive and energy product (not to
mention quantifying the sustainable amounts of fish and fungi) could explain
underground living for a zero level province. Maybe. However, 25,000 in
Rivenrock (or 250,000 if we seek medieval population densities) are not
getting along on fungus and fish pools. The humans need to devote 90% of
their populations and will over time occupy all the arable land available.
Given nice arable land (say Coeranys) a random province might have 120,000
persons using medieval demographics and 12,000 using BR numbers. So
Rivenrock has twice as many people as the average nearby human province, in
which nearly everyone uses all the land avaiable to produce enough food for
the province, yet people are getting along on rocks, fungi, and fish-pools.
Given that dwarves are not humans, the quanties of their metabolisms and
their physiological functions may be assumed to be different, but can they
be so different that they can be powered by so mere a fraction of the human
food requirements that it amounts to the propulsion required to lift a city
by comparison?
This clearly amounts to a “don`t look behind the curtain” explanation. If
dwarven metabolism is so slow, how do they heal? If they have higher
metabolisms, they cannot get by one a bit of fungus and a forkfull of fish.
If they consume anything remotely like humans, they must have covered a
substantial expance of Baruk-Azhik in fungus farms and fish pools. The map
of Stone`s Rejoicing makes the food zone maybe, 10% of the city area. If
this were a human area, maybe 20sq km would be settled by people surrounded
by the land they worked which would amount to 2000 sq km. The city itself
would occupy a somewhere between a thenth to a fifth of a square mile and
would be surrounded by zones of production based on the demands of the
market, and Rivenrock`s demands would extend beyond the province itself.
Indeed, I think one of the key reasons we see two human guilds operating in
Baruk-Azhik is the importation of food stuffs. And I reckon this despite
the fact that I assume dwarves live just below the surface of the earth and
work its sub-blessed surface to produce some crops and a lot of animals.
One cannot fudge around with the numbers and arrive at perpetually
underground dwelling dwarves just as one cannot find a mathematical
explanation for how cities fly. One must either ignore the problem or
impose a fiat (dwarves are more like animated rock than they are like
people) to solve this problem.
Kenneth Gauck
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> One must either ignore the problem or impose a fiat (dwarves are more
> like animated rock than they are like people) to solve this problem.
Thats not fiat, its from the BR source material.
–
Daniel McSorley
----- Original Message -----
From: “Daniel McSorley” <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 9:48 PM
> Thats not fiat, its from the BR source material.
Not true. The PS of Baruk-Azhik, which I know pretty well, having run a
campaign in this realm, does not support the fungi-fish-rocks interpretation
of BA. The section on eating rocks is mentioned in a preface to the listing
of actual foods consumed, and its stated as a kind of emergency statement:
during landslides, trapped in caverns, &c. The staples listed do include
mushrooms and fungus, but they also include potatoes, legumes (both human
staple foods) and several vegetables familiar to those of us who do not live
in perpetual subterrarian existence. What I am arguing is that dwarves
probabaly eat a quantity of these staples which would be more or less like
humans. They may eat more, and they may eat less food. But, they cannot
eat so little food that they won`t need vast fields and hence cannot live
perpetual subterrarian without creating a serious of problems which can only
be solved by ignoring them or by DM fiat. That`s where the fiat is. If you
look over the list of staples and other edibles, we see the diet of surface
dwelling people, who probabaly do more gardening than grain farming, who
hunt game, herd goats, and whose diet has elements of which more could be
found under ground, but not so much that the dwarves could abandon the
surface.
And so, to imagine that fungus and fishpools are more than a store of
survival food for withstanding a siege or a hard winter, that they are
primary food sources, one needs to either explain how all of this food is
provided, explain how the dwarves could eat nearly no food, ignore the
problem, or just impose solutions.
There are more reasonable interpretations of those statements that suggest
long duration underground habitation. These include long term storage of
surface foods (note that many dwarven edibles are easily storable such as
nuts or can be salted or packed in brine) secret foraging through hidden
access to the surface as well as underground food sources, and maybe a
little rock and dirt eating as a mineral rich suppliment, almost like
vitamin pills. In such cases, dwarves don`t literally abandon the surface,
they abandon contact with humans and other surface races, and only come out
for short periods of time to bring in their resources. Or even live on the
surface, but withdraw to the underground fortresses at the fist sign of
visitors.
Perpetual subterrarian dwelling can`t be explained by rules we know (such as
that nearly all liife energy comes from the sun) nor has anyone proposed a
credible alternative. And so we are left with a floating cities situation.
Kenneth Gauck
OK Ken – before you rip my head off for trying to make a difference and actually contributing to the Atlas, I am working from Source material here.
I never said that the Dwarves live solely underground. I postulated that when surface colonies first appeared some 2000 years ago, there was some conflict with the Sidhe. If you look at low birth rates, it is quite conceivable that it was only 2000 years ago that it became necessary to come to the surface on a permanent basis to feed a growing population.
Source material consistently states that Dwarves reproduce slowly, and that they grow large beds of fungi, have the ability to eat rock (it apparently is nutritious, but is bland), and will, in fact eat almost anything save seeds, pork (holy law), eggs and cows’s milk (and derived products). Anikmal farming (goats) is done underground, and I would hazard a good guess that teh goats are fed on fungi.
Any fruit, game meats or vegetables that require sunlight (won’t grow under phosphorescent fungi) would have to come from the surface.
The ‘map’ of Stone’s Rejoicing is, IMO utter crap, and would need to be reworked to include multiple levels – when you’re living in a medium (stone) that allows for 3-dimensional city planning, you will also find that you can get many more fungal farms per acre than you can on a 2D surface. The map isn’t large enough as it sits to house 20K…
-Mike
Underground cities aren`t very realistic given the limits of real world
biology. Of course, neither are dwarves. When it comes to inexplicable
ecologies, however, the existence of underground cities–which are
described as being still pretty close to the surface of the earth–doesn`t
hold a candle to an entire plane of existence in perpetual shadow yet
somehow manages to support mythical beasts, races, and immigrants/refugees
to the world of light.
Gary
At 09:41 AM 9/21/2003 +0200, Athos69 wrote:
>Anikmal farming (goats) is done underground, and I would hazard a good
>guess that teh goats are fed on fungi.
Unless you`re referring to something else, the section that describes this
in the BA SB just says that the goats are penned underground, and that
that is done for occasions when hunting (a surface activity, presumably) is
not possible or game scarce, not that the farming of such livestock is done
entirely beneath the surface of the earth.
A more plausible explanation for dwarf goat farming is that they are kept
underground, but are either brought fodder from the surface or are allowed
some grazing on a regular basis, rather than fed on fungi grown
underground. Given the secretive nature of dwarves, it`s pretty likely
that they would graze such creatures in isolated valleys and glens of their
mountainous terrain, difficult to reach by foot–if one doesn`t have a
tunnel, that is.
Gary
Kenneth Gauck schrieb:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: “Daniel McSorley” <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
>Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 5:35 PM
>
>
>…dwarven metabolism is so slow, how do they heal? If they have higher
>metabolisms, they cannot get by one a bit of fungus and a forkfull of fish.
>If they consume anything remotely like humans, they must have covered a
>substantial expance of Baruk-Azhik in fungus farms and fish pools.
>
They don´t. The PS of Baruk-Ahzik tells on p. 10 that "…troops of
dwarves who have been trapped in rockslides or pinned down in caverns as
a result of the orog wars have survived by eating the rock and earth
around them. Furthermore these dwarves have emerged from their ordeals
none the worse for wear. While they ahve shown signs of dehydration,
such victims experienced no weight loss or weakness as a result of the
diet…"
The PS continues that “dirk and rock leave something to be desired…”
and that the dwarves prefer other stuff, but even a delicacy consists
partly of slate and obsidian…
Those stuff listed under preferred staples hints that it has a reason
that most if not all dwarven realms exist near a major lake or source of
water (clams, oysters, snails, freshwater squid…)
…
>One cannot fudge around with the numbers and arrive at perpetually
>underground dwelling dwarves just as one cannot find a mathematical
>explanation for how cities fly. One must either ignore the problem or
>impose a fiat (dwarves are more like animated rock than they are like
>people) to solve this problem.
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
>
If sidhelien become more like fairy being as some here have supposed
there is no reason why Cerilian dwarves can´t become somthing like
little stone golems 
bye
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: “Athos69” <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:41 AM
> The map of Stone`s Rejoicing is, IMO utter crap, and would
need to be reworked to include multiple levels
My point is the embedded idea of perment subterrarian habitation, such as
proposed for the pre-conflict, is likewise beneath consideration without
some plausible explanation of how its possible. It doesn`t have to be based
on anything that exists in our world (that`s just Gary being obtuse) it just
has to make sense beyond a reasonable level of scrutiny. People provide all
kinds of complex reasons why you can`t heal elves or why this or that undead
could or couldn`t be blooded. Is it really too much to ask that the
explanation of dwarven agriculture not immediatly offend one`s basic sense
of arithmatic?
Since no one seems to really want a totally fantastic explanation of the
dwarves food, we have two choices. Either they do live permenantly
underground, but we can explain it, or they don`t really live permanently
underground, but its commonly supposed that they do by humans.
The Shadow World, by the way, is not a biological sphere served by
ecosystems. It is a spirit world of life energy operating on a different
set of rules. As long as these rules make sense as they are elaborated, all
is well. The most difficult part of elaborating the SW is not its
inhabitants, where they came from or what they do there, its how one senses
the place
Kenneth Gauck
----- Original Message -----
From: “Michael Romes” <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:08 AM
> If sidhelien become more like fairy being as some here have
> supposed there is no reason why Cerilian dwarves can´t
> become somthing like little stone golems
Not at all, but the thing to remember about commonly encountered beings
(especially ones that can be PC`s) is that we need to know how they work.
Golems are magically animated objects. If someone whet to the trouble of,
say imagining a creation where Moradin first animated his little stone
fellows and then he taught them the rituals by which they could animate
themselves in a way that both ensured their continued animation and gave
worship to Moradin, and then elaborated what the limits are, mechanized it
for play, and thought through the implications of such powers as might be
ascribed to such dwarves I would think it well done. And since I have
already gotten the ball rolling, we are well on our way if that is what we
want to do. Let`s just make sure we think through all the implications of
it.
Kenneth Gauck