Hypothetical scenario and ethical implications

OK, being a church leader (Vice President, will be president next year in part of the standard 3 year committment) of a church under the United Church of Christ denomination I feel I need to set some things in perspective here:

Saying that Christian churches are lawful good is in one way a stretch and in another perfectly accurate. They do all live by their own interpretations of Christ’s doctrine. Some have more structure and rules than do others. But pretty much saying they are all lawful is a matter of interpretation (basically it is a comparision issue). They are or are not lawful as compared to something else. When compared to Muslim traditions they aren’t lawful in any way shape or form. There is a whole lot more structure there than in pretty much any Christian adapatation. Same with the Jewish faith, there is a whole lot more structure and organization there than even the Roman Catholic structure.

The Old Testament was from the Jewish texts and the Laws are what have been referenced here. The New Testament (Jesus’ teachings and spread of Christianity) specifically had that the 2 commandments that were most important were to to Love the Lord thy God above all others and to Love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else is supplemental to those two.

The following is a link to our church’s website (woefully out of date) and an article I wrote, so people can get an understanding of at least some of my personal feelings and beliefs.

http://www.tidewaterucc.com/WH%20Newsletter.htm

Note that what I am talking about as far as BR and fantasy go is a game, plain and simple and not to be confused with how I (or anyone) should live their life. By its very nature the game is epic and stretches the imaginations. If we put too much real life into it then it loses the wonder of being a game.

So much for the preaching back to the game. . .

I havent participated in this thread, though Ive been reading it

carefully and with much interest. Kudos to all, BTW, on the tone in which

most of the posts have been made. Often these are the kinds of discussions

that degenerate into name calling and snide remarks, so it`s good to see

folks in the community discussing things with such maturity, especially

since everyone has also managed to remain pretty much on topic. Keep it up!

When it comes to medieval morality I would like to throw out one

thing. Often what gets defined as “medieval morality” employs a heavy dose

of modern context to the situations being discussed. That is, it assumes

more modern circumstances in what is an entirely medieval conflict. We

should try to avoid “armchair morality” that assumes the people involved

are not engaged in a much more desperate struggle than was really the

case. That is not to say that the good/evil of an action is determined by

the predominant morality of the culture at large–which I think is

untrue–but that the situational issues are often broader than they are

presented. The kinds of situations that are often being discussed would be

evil in a more modern context because many modern wars are “wars of choice”

to use a recently coined term. In earlier times, however, competition for

resources was a much more proximate thing than it is now. When discussing

the genocidal acts of European settlers to the New World, for instance, one

should bear in mind that life expectancy amongst European settlers was a

good ten to fifteen years higher than it was for those who remained at

home. If life expectancy in the first place is in the mid- to late 30`s

that`s a pretty significant jump. The same diseases that wiped out native

Americans by the millions were often in full force in Europe and though the

population had built up a level of immunity they still killed thousands of

Europeans every year. Earlier European colonists, of course, had a

substantial rate of death, but after footholds in the New World were

established one could live there longer and with a lower rate of infant

mortality than one could in most European cities. In that context,

European migrants to the New World are fleeing a force more deadly than the

Mongol invasion, and we should bear in mind that their migration is not

entirely willful in the first place.

While there are a lot of factors involved, it is safe to say that when

population density reaches a certain point average life expectancy starts

to go down, and a population can either improve their technology to support

the higher density, diminish or expand. Technical progress, unfortunately,

is a generally slow process, so the choice is more often life (by

expansion) or death (which is what diminishing represents.) If one defines

the primary concern of “good” as having reverence for life, then one is in

a situation in which one must face the unpleasant reality of choosing life

for the largest number of people possible, which leads to other people

losing out. As unpleasant a reality as this is, certain lifestyles and the

cultures they support must end for what is essentially the greater

good. People often pile an amazing amount of rationalizations upon that

situation in order to justify choosing one group over the other, but in the

final analysis the morality of the conflict is based on the total numbers

of people who will survive. The reality, of course, is that there is a

broad overlap of all these issues, but what is so often debated in modern

times is (in simplistic terms) that we can employ technological solutions

to resolve the issue rather than resort of expansion or diminished

populations. That option was not as readily available in pre-Modern times.

In such a situation certain overt acts are unequivocally evil. Handing out

smallpox infested blankets to native peoples is definitely an evil act. I

don`t think anybody could contest that with much credibility. However,

most of what gets lumped into that same category–the mere presence of

Europeans in the New World which spread disease because such people were

carriers, for instance–is really not an evil thing by definition. These

are, after all, people in competition with other people not simply for the

sake of competition, but for the resources to survive. “Ownership” of land

or claiming land is not in and of itself an evil thing to do for all that

it is in conflict with the latter-day reinterpretation of the culture of

many native Americans in that 20th century New Age kind of way. Native

peoples competed with other native peoples before Europeans arrived and

many elements of that native/native conflict were at least as horrific as

things done by the settlers. That`s not to cast native Americans as evil,

it`s merely to point out that in conflict people do unpleasant things in

order to survive, and we should try to employ the same standard when

examining one as the other in as objective a manner as possible.

To put all this in a D&D/alignment context, I`d suggest a couple of

things. Alignment is a very blunt tool. Good/neutral/evil and

law/neutral/chaos. There`s not a lot of room for variation there. In the

past I`ve suggested a point value like that presented by Monte Cook in

order to express alignment (or some other system of “allegiance”) because

it not only works better but allows for more articulation of a character`s

morality. If using strictly the alignment system, however, one can still

use a bit of that kind of thinking without going all out with points and

ratings. Id suggest that what determines a characters (or a realm`s)

alignment isn`t single actions, but the sum total of their actions. A

character (or realm) that committed an overtly evil act is not necessarily

evil any more than a devoutly evil character who has a lapse of conscience

and rescues a toddler from a burning house becomes good. They may not be

“pure of alignment” in a way that might be demanded of a paladin, but they

can still be one or the other. With that in mind, a war would not

necessarily change the alignment of a realm–even if one considers war an

absolute evil–especially if the circumstances of that war were morally

ambiguous. As long as the nation on the whole is more good than evil (or

more good than neutral, really) the alignment need not change.

Gary

Heh, ok well it seems like my 5 points have held true so far then and after this last bit of discussion, maybe we could add a couple points

  1. The people’s belief in the regent is what determines his RP collection. (true for all regents except source regents)

  2. If a landed/guild regent does an act that is considered evil by some of the good gods, it may not be considered evil by the people. For example, genociding the goblins in the spiderfell who have raided their provinces for centuries. (It would be genocide as they have no where to run except into hostile lands if the conquering regent doesnt allow them to stay in the spriderfell.)

  3. If a temple regent does an act this considered evil by his/her good diety, it will likely be considered evil by the temple followers, as they would generally follow the moral code set by the diety. (of course some clerics maybe able to swindle the people for a while, however, it wouldnt likely be long before some other clerics get messages from their diety telling them of the wrongs done in his/her name)

  4. If a landed/guild regent does an act that is considered good by some of the good gods, it may not be considered good by the people. For example, giving charity to goblins, whom the populace hates.

  5. If a temple regent does an act that is considered good by his/her diety, it will likely be considered good by the temple followers.

  6. The basis for determining any alignment/morality issue, should be grounded in the context of the game, and not in our modern day views. The context of the game includes our approximate historic views of the Middle Ages to Rennaisance time periods.

  7. If the landed/guild regent does an act that is considered evil by the temple regent, and the people generally didnt think that the act was evil, the temple regent may attempt to rile up the people against the landed/guild regent to force the regent to seek amends. Keeping in mind that the people need to be convinced that the act was indeed evil.

  8. If the landed/guild regent does an act that is considered good by the temple regent, and the people generally didnt think that the act was good, the temple regent may attempt to get the people to support the landed/guild regent’s action. This would be like positive reinforcement of the regents choice of action.

[b]If I were to change anything, I would just clarify #3:

  1. If a temple regent does an act this considered evil by his/her good diety, it will likely be considered evil by the temple followers, as they would generally follow the moral code set by the diety. (of course some clerics maybe able to swindle the people for a while, however, it wouldnt likely be long before some other clerics get messages from their diety telling them of the wrongs done in his/her name) Of course the temple alignment is determined by the temple regent, however, this doesn’t mean that the temple regent is above his/her deity who grants the regent the power to cast spells.

As we all know, the cleric must obay, in some respects at least, the wishes and code of the deity if the cleric wishes to remain within the good graces of the deity and continue to cast divine spells. Otherwise, the cleric would need to attone or find a new diety to worship, that is more inline with the cleric’s views. [/b]

So how does one justify Haelyn (LG) having LE priests? The logic fades. I prefer that the deity is more concerned with their portfolio than alignment, now if Good is part of their portfolio that is another issue.

Pretty much the way 3.5 does things as far as deities go is via their portfolios (see
Deities and Demigods (3.0 but still works) for examples of how gods use mortals or need them in actuality (pg 16) or The Complete Divine for why character serve their god(s) (pgs 5-6)).

Portfolios are what the god is responsible for hence what he is concerned with.

irdeggman

So how does one justify Haelyn (LG) having LE priests? The logic fades. I prefer that the deity is more concerned with their portfolio than alignment, now if Good is part of their portfolio that is another issue.

Oh im so glad you finaly brought that up, i was waiting for you to do so, heheh.

Heres my response to the whole issue about allowing clerics be 2 steps away from their deity.

After all the talk on the theoretical/ethical thread, its brought up some old thoughts about the cleric’s alignment not having much restrictions upon it, something that bugged me about the BR version of clerics.

Honestly, as the cleric gets his/her power from her deity, the deity should really be determining who deserves to gets to use their power. As such, it doesn’t really make sense for evil clerics to get power from a good deity, just like it doesn’t make sense for chaotic clerics to get power from a lawful deity.

There is nothing stopping a CE character from being a priest of Haelyn, however, Haelyn would never grant the character any powers. I would say this would hold true for anyone who is evil as Haelyn certainly is opposed to evil and would not want to be represented by evil people nor would he favor them with his power.

Now then, if the clerics’ alignments were solely dependent upon the sect and not the deity, the 2 steps away rule makes sense. However, the sect is not the one granting clerics their powers. The deity determines who gets to represent them and be favored with their power. Thus, as a deity would prefer to have those clerics who would best represent them, ie having an alignment close to the deity’s, it doesn’t make sense to have the 2 steps away rule. So, the sects and clerics should Both be within 1 step of the deity’s alignment.

Examples then for each alignment:

For a LG deity: the clerics can be LG, NG, and LN.
For a LN deity: the clerics can be LN, LG, LE, and TN.
For a LE deity: the clerics can be LE, NE, and LN.

For a NG deity: the clerics can be NG, LG, CG, and TN.
For a TN deity: the clerics can be TN, NG, NE, LN and CN.
For a NE deity: the clerics can be NE, LE, CE and TN.

For a CG deity: the clerics can be CG, NG, and CN.
For a CN deity: the clerics can be CN, CG, CE, and TN.
For a CE deity: the clerics can be CE, NE, and CN.

You understand that the logic really fades in the BRCS idea of allowing clerics to potentially be 2 steps away from their deity, and not my explanation for #3, which makes logical sense:

  1. If a temple regent does an act this considered evil by his/her good diety, it will likely be considered evil by the temple followers, as they would generally follow the moral code set by the diety. (of course some clerics maybe able to swindle the people for a while, however, it wouldnt likely be long before some other clerics get messages from their diety telling them of the wrongs done in his/her name) Of course the temple alignment is determined by the temple regent, however, this doesn’t mean that the temple regent is above his/her deity who grants the regent the power to cast spells.

As we all know, the cleric must obay, in some respects at least, the wishes and code of the deity if the cleric wishes to remain within the good graces of the deity and continue to cast divine spells. Otherwise, the cleric would need to attone or find a new diety to worship, that is more inline with the cleric’s views.

Gary, I like your alignment by points idea, very cool. And I totally agree alignments are a very blunt tool to use. However, you seem to be arguing for an alignment change and not an alignment infringement, which is a different thing. As an alignment change would be the character choosing courses of action that reflect a different alignment over a long period of time. An alignment infringement would be like those 1 time examples that you gave.

As in the BRCS, pg 101, an alignment infringement results in a minor loss or possibly a major loss of regency. Of course, if the regent was acting in a manner that was similar to the realm’s general alignment, such an infringement may actually be appreciated and approved by the public. If he were to actually change to the realm’s alignment the public may consider it a great thing.

I also agree that historically, the people acted more on a survival instinct. Something that does not have as strong an influence upon our beliefs, actions ect, as we’re gamers who obviously have free time to enjoy playing diverting games, think about abstract ideas, and argue for or against them. These are definite luxuries in the middle ages.

irdeggman

Note that what I am talking about as far as BR and fantasy go is a game, plain and simple and not to be confused with how I (or anyone) should live their life. By its very nature the game is epic and stretches the imaginations. If we put too much real life into it then it loses the wonder of being a game.

That is so true, and I totally agree we should keep this idea on the front of our minds.

irdeggman

OK, being a church leader (Vice President, will be president next year in part of the standard 3 year committment) of a church under the United Church of Christ denomination I feel I need to set some things in perspective here:

Very cool :), always nice to learn more about yall. Heh, I just got enough credits to minor in religion, however, i decided against it as I could only pick one minor so I went with rhetoric. I studied the torah, the bible (early christianity), the Quran, hinduism, budhism, greek/roman and Norse mythology. All fun stuff, some of which i still keep up on, however, my knowledge in these areas wouldnt compare to some of my friends who were really interested on religion.

Originally posted by A_dark@Jun 2 2004, 01:29 PM
In the ancient greek tragedy of Orestis, the good son of Agamemnon kills his mother (who killed her husband) in revenge after Athena herself advised him to do it. He believe it was a good thing to do. The gods did not agree and the Furies were sent after him. The act itself matters, not the justification for it.

OK, OK. I was waiting to get to the last message before I responded, but this was too much for me to take. So let me put my classics MA to good use.

Orestes killed his mother under divine mandate. Apollo himself ordered him to do so, and was right beside him all along the way. In general, in Greek vision Apollo is a much more positive deity than the Erinyes.
The Erinyes themselves do not need to be sent by anyone to avenge people. In this myth, actually, they represent the primitive and even barbaric way of life, in which blood relations are the only things that matter, and thus blood far outways the importance of contractual relationships (such as marriage). Because of this, the Erinyes are a subversive element in institutes of the Polis, and thus they are rejected by the Olympian Gods (Apollo is quite disdainful toward them, and expresses revultion by them). Fact is that the Erinyes are forced to litigate (much to their chagrine) on the matter against Apollo, with Athena as judge. Athena, in the end, rules against the Erinyes, and worship to them is included as part of the Polis only in order to placate them (and in no means in order to show acceptance of the values they stand for).

I think that this case works directly against your argument. It is the background and intentions that make the act of murder justifiable.

But, Osprey, if you use medieval morality to judge good vs evil, then you might get very violent and brutal paladins, which I think is not really what was intended in the game. Genocide wasn’t “evil” in medieval Europe (Aztecs died from Spaniards… Cortez…), slavery wasn’t “evil” in Renaissance Europe (dunno about medieval Europe) etc etc… Personally I cannot imagine a paladin acting against goblins as Cortez acted against Aztecs… And how about a paladin acting against the Rjurik or Vos as Cortez acted against the Aztecs?

Hmm, we might get very violent and brutal paladins, aye?

Tell me, in D&D, why are paladins such strong fighters? Strong base attack bonuses, complete simple and martial weapon proficiencies, full armor proficiencies…sounds like a crusading knight to me!

If Christian Crusaders weren’t the inspirational template for the classic paladins of D&D, then what the heck were? And are paladins of Haelyn all that different from the basic PHB versions? Not as far as I can tell. They pretty much define the standard if you ask me.

I think paladins can be some of the most viscious and brutal characters in D&D. Why? Because they’re so narrow-mindedly focused on “fighting evil” that they can’t see the forest for the trees. A lot (the majority even?) of atrocities are commited by zealots, because they more than most people are willing to do whatever is necessary, no matter how unpleasant or unsightly that may be.

If goblins are judged as irredeemably evil by a paladin, why wouldn’t he be willing to kill every last one of the wretched villains? Is it not for the greater good of “true and gentle folk everywhere?” Is he not protecting the weak and less fortunate, those who would be the goblins’ next victims of murder, rape, slavery, or torture?

It’s all in how you spin it…but remember, every paladin is a warrior, and warriors excel at one thing above all else: killing. If a paladin is a character who excels at violence, then he darn well better have a system of ethics that justifies that killing while keeping his alignment, else he won’t be a paladin for long. Which means every paladin has a list of those who can justifiably be slaughtered in the name of good.

Welcome to Birthright.

For those who are unfamiliar with the pretext of the myth. Agamemnon killed his daughter before going to Troy as ritual sacrifice, generally considered to be done inorder to show his commitment. When Agamemnon returned from Troy his wife killed him, in revenge for the sacrifice of his daughter.

Then Orestes killed his mother by mandate of Apollo, ect. and basically the Erinyes are arguing that Agamemnon’s wife’s crime was less severe than Orestes’ act.

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jun 3 2004, 09:06 AM
Agamemnon killed his daughter before going to Troy as ritual sacrifice, generally considered to be done inorder to show his commitment.

Sorry to be so tiresome and knitpicking, but that’s just the way I am.
Agamemnon sacrificed Iphigeneia because Artemis demanded it. A short while before, Agamemnon killed a pair of deer calves (is that the right term?). Artemis, as protectress of all young animals, demanded retribution in the form of the sacrifice of Agamemnon’s eldest daughter. As long as Iphigeneia went on unsacrificed no wind would blow on the Isle of Euboea, and thus the Greek fleets could not set sail to Troy. Agamemnon, as well as most Greek heroes had to sail to Troy or face the consequences of breaking an oath given to Hellen’s father under Zeus’ name.

There is a name to applying one’s own contemporary set of values on people from different eras: Anachronism. Being accused of anachronism is one of the worst things that could happen to any serious historian.

I think a similar thing can be said of Cerilia. A place where the two gods of war are considered Good (Haelyn and Cuiraecen) cannot consider war to be evil.

As for divestiture and ethnic cleansing being evil, if that is so, then ALL human ancestors (of practically all cultures) can and should be considered evil. They took Cerilia from the Elves by no other means than divestiture and ethinc cleansing.

As for time, not everything that humans consider a long period of time might seem so to members of other races: while 100 years would seem long to a 50 year old human, they might seem a shorter period of time for a 200 year old dwarf, and even shorter for a 1000 year old elf.

And as for settlers in occupied territories that were regained, I don’t see any reason why throwing them back to wherever it is they came from should seem evil. If a country doesn’t allow immigration in the first place (and is not considered evil for not allowing it) there is no reason why it should tolerate a coerced immigration, that would have inevitably disenfrenchized the original population of their lands and possessions.

There is a name to applying one’s own contemporary set of values on people from different eras: Anachronism. Being accused of anachronism is one of the worst things that could happen to any serious historian.

Good thing none of us are serious historian then. In truth though, it is almost impossible for someone from our modern age to look back and truely understand how events in the past happened without using our own sets of values. Much of history is, after all, guess work.

I think a similar thing can be said of Cerilia. A place where the two gods of war are considered Good (Haelyn and Cuiraecen) cannot consider war to be evil.

And Cerilia is primarily seen through the eyes of its human inhabitants. To the humans of Cerilia Haelyn and Cuiraecen are good, so a lot of people hanging around Anuire and the other region probably do consider war to be good for the right reasons.

If you were an orog or goblin in Cerilia though, you would consider Karthathok or Torazan to be good deities and Haelyn and Cuiraecen to be evil (although that might be stretching thing a little, as goblin and orog religions are most likely based on fear, fear of what their god will do to them if they aren’t good little orogs or goblins and capture lots of human sacrifices).

There is a 3rd god of war also, Belinik, and he most definitely is not considered to be good.

As for divestiture and ethnic cleansing being evil, if that is so, then ALL human ancestors (of practically all cultures) can and should be considered evil. They took Cerilia from the Elves by no other means than divestiture and ethinc cleansing.[/QUOTE}

Pretty much, humans thoughout the history of Cerilia have done some pretty bloody evil deeds, but remember history is written by the survivors. Roele has been mentioned a couple of times, this is the guy who conquered almost all of Cerilia by force of arms and imposed his own law. To those he conquered he was an evil tyrant who deprived them of their liberty, but to the Anuireans he was the greatest hero who ever lived (perhaps with the exception of Haelyn, who became a god), and unequalled force for all that was good and right about the empire.

The thing to focus on, is that the men and woman who shaped Cerilia are only evil in the eyes of their victims. To their followers they are heros and their victories were glorious triumphs.

[QUOTE]And as for settlers in occupied territories that were regained, I don’t see any reason why throwing them back to wherever it is they came from should seem evil. If a country doesn’t allow immigration in the first place (and is not considered evil for not allowing it) there is no reason why it should tolerate a coerced immigration, that would have inevitably disenfrenchized the original population of their lands and possessions.

As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, it would depend on the length of time that has passed. If you look at the example of Lluabraight, in the eyes of the majority of Cerilians, they would be justified in kicking out the humanoids in the northern Giantdowns provinces and retaking those lands. Now look at Rhuobhe, he considers himself justified in killing humans and trying to take their lands because those lands were elven over a thousand years ago. In the eyes of the majority of Cerilians (even some of his own people) he is not justified in his crusade against all humanity and he is a evil monster. If his followers do eventually succeed in wiping out humanity and retaking Cerilia for the elves, however, Rhuobhe will be the greatest elven hero who ever lived.

So, there is a lot of difference between what is truely evil and what is considered evil, and a lot of it depends on which side you are on. The “good” races, humans, dwarves, elves, etc, are not going to be too upset about a whole heap of dead or deported goblins, in fact, they will probably welcome it. If they themselves suddenly found themselves kicked out of their homes and forced into another province it would be a thousand times worse. To an observer who feel no attachment to either race, then both events are equal, both equally evil.

As for the DM, the final judge in the whole matter, then evil should be judged based on the society the character/regent came from. If the regents are Anuirean, and the enemy goblins, then war is justified because goblins are evil and should be put down. Where things get tricky is when “good” characters start doing things that are obviously evil for gold or territory and trying to get away with it by claiming that their enemy is evil. An example here, would be an alliance of Roesone, Medoere, Aerenwe, etc, attacking Ghoere because Gavin Tael is obviously an evil tyrant and then dividing up Ghoere amonst themselves afterwards. That is an example of a war fought for their own greed, not for a good causes and the regents involved (if they were good) would have gone against their alignments.

Anyway, all arguments aside, it is almost impossible to exist in this world or any other without doing something that someone in the world is one day going to consider evil…

Hmmm, anyone know why the quote thingy didn’t work on this post? Always has before.

[b]QUOTE (tcharazazel @ Jun 3 2004, 09:06 AM)
Agamemnon killed his daughter before going to Troy as ritual sacrifice, generally considered to be done inorder to show his commitment.

Sorry to be so tiresome and knitpicking, but that’s just the way I am.
Agamemnon sacrificed Iphigeneia because Artemis demanded it. A short while before, Agamemnon killed a pair of deer calves (is that the right term?). Artemis, as protectress of all young animals, demanded retribution in the form of the sacrifice of Agamemnon’s eldest daughter. As long as Iphigeneia went on unsacrificed no wind would blow on the Isle of Euboea, and thus the Greek fleets could not set sail to Troy. [/b]

Heheh, aye, the part about the showing his commitment was from a modern viewpoint by several historians, sorry for not making that bit clear.

Good to see you go all the way with the detail though :slight_smile: and its fawn for baby deer.

Anyway, all arguments aside, it is almost impossible to exist in this world or any other without doing something that someone in the world is one day going to consider evil…

Excactly! So we must embrace our nature, realize that evil is good, and go on sinning. Besides, who really cares what people centuries later think of us? Heh, its not likely any will even remmeber us anyway.

I`m still holding on to the view that good and evil should be absolute moral values, not just based on cultural background, at least as an ideal and esspecially with regard to paladins and clerics.

Otherwise you can throw the whole alignment system out of the window or replace it with a point-based system of allegiances. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does raise some rules related questions, like for instance what to do with the detect good/evil/law/chaos spells and abilities. Do they simply not exist if good and evil are solely based on the view of the beholder? or do they work differently? If so, how?

That said, however I do not believe that good characters have to throw away their weapons or necessarily make weak rulers. Violence in itself is not necessarily evil, at least in the context of D&D, but good characters must use care when resorting to violence. This is straight out of the Book of Exalted deeds which devotes several pages for explaining what constitutes good in D&D. To fight against an enemy is acceptable and even required when dealing with the doctrines of Haelyn or Cuiraecen, to slaughter defenseless goblin children is not.

With regard to good rulers going to war, there`s still enough room left for even a paladin to wage war on his or her neighbours. Wars of defense are of course okay as are wars to assist an ally or vassall. In other regards, war should constitute the last means to achieve a goal when other actions have failed. For example, a neighbouring realm blocks a trade route or tries to take over a holding. A good character should at first try to use diplomacy to protect his interests, but if this attempt fails he could go to war without infringing his alignment. The war would not be good war, because it is fought for selfish reasons, i.e. money, but good characters can protect their interests.

BTW, as far as I remember, the romans could only fight just wars according to their laws and for religious reasons. And every single one of their wars was a just war, at least so they said. Nevertheless they managed to acquire the greatest empire of their time. So do as the romans did, fight just wars and rule the world :wink:

irdeggman schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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> irdeggman wrote:

>

…

> 3) If a temple regent does an act this considered evil by his/her good diety, it will likely be considered evil by the temple followers, as they would generally follow the moral code set by the diety. (of course some clerics maybe able to swindle the people for a while, however, it wouldnt likely be long before some other clerics get messages from their diety telling them of the wrongs done in his/her name)

>…

> 5) If a temple regent does an act that is considered good by his/her diety, it will likely be considered good by the temple followers.

>

Diety?

Can the temple followers really consider it good that a temple regents

meals are sentient enough to judge the morality of his actions?

Cannibalism I say. :wink:

bye

Michael

Raesene,

Not wanting to quote your entire post, I just wanted to say: well put, man! You’ve broken down and exposed the truth behind alignment in D&D: the myth of objective alignments is just that, a myth.

The fact is, good and evil (far more than law and chaos) are extremely subjective, and the standard alignments of D&D are very definitely grounded in Western heroic ideals. In fact, I’d wager you could get more clues to D&D alignments from Mallory’s Morte d’Artur and Tolkien than anywhere else, at least for the formative inspirations for what defines good and evil in D&D. And since Cerilia, and Anuire in particular, are so heavily based on these same cultural frameworks, it works pretty well for our purposes here.

One thing I’d say, is that the evil races/worshippers probably don’t call themselves evil, but neither would they claim to be good. I think the hallmark of the ‘evil’ races in D&D is that they consider things like morality to be signs of weakness. What matters is strength, skill, cunning, and success.

Over time, as I’ve sat around trying to get a handle on what evil is in D&D and in BR, the best answer I’ve come up with is this:

  1. Evil is Selfish. While everyone has selfish tendencies, and there is always the temptation to give into these for any person, the evil character indulges in these urges.
  2. To Indulge Without Restraint: This branches into a whole larger set of indulgences in appetites, the particulars of which vary from one person and culture to another. The seven deadly sins work as a good basic set of vices an evil person might indulge in or pursue, especially when this pursuit is at the expense of others: greed, lust, gluttony, vanity, envy, anger, and sloth. Now these of course can be changed or modified to fit a less Augustinian world, but the idea is there: there are basic human appetites that cause a lot of suffering to others when they are indulged in, especially in excess.
  3. Evil is equated with Hobbes’ Natural Law: humans at their most basic level are evil: selfish, cruel, and willing to do anything for the sake of survival. If you read through the PHB alignment descriptions, you’ll find that this matches up pretty well with every evil alignment, the only differences are how structured the evil person is (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic). But the morality is pretty much the same through all of them: “whatever it takes to get what I want.”

Osprey

Originally posted by Beruin@Jun 3 2004, 05:50 PM
I`m still holding on to the view that good and evil should be absolute moral values, not just based on cultural background, at least as an ideal and esspecially with regard to paladins and clerics.

Indeed.
There is a pretty lengthy philosophical debate as to whether moral is absolute or relative. Notwithstanding my opinions on the matter in real life, there is little doubt that standard D&D and Birthright as a result of that have selected to view their fantasyland as having absolute moral. The entire alignment system depends on it. Baatezu are evil, and are well aware of it, Aasimons (or angels or whatever WotC chooses to call them these days) are good. As a result monsters in the Monster Manual have an “Alignment” stat in their description, and the frequency estimate of that alignment. As far as D&D is concerned, this is not a matter of Point of View.

Beruin

good/evil/law/chaos spells and abilities. Do they simply not exist if good and evil are solely based on the view of the beholder? or do they work differently? If so, how?

Well, for Evil and Good, if you look at the Detect Evil spell description its apparent that what is the strong influence of the spell is negative energy for evil. This is because the aura of a cleric who channels evil energy soon reaches overwhelming when compared to just an evil character. So, it’s logical to believe that good would be positive energy.

As for Chaos and Law… heh, well they thankfully gave us some names for that also. Anarchic energy for chaos and Axiomatic for law.

Diety?
Can the temple followers really consider it good that a temple regents
meals are sentient enough to judge the morality of his actions?
Cannibalism I say. :wink:

Bloody woodworks…

Osprey

[b]Not wanting to quote your entire post, I just wanted to say: well put, man! You’ve broken down and exposed the truth behind alignment in D&D: the myth of objective alignments is just that, a myth.

The fact is, good and evil (far more than law and chaos) are extremely subjective, and the standard alignments of D&D are very definitely grounded in Western heroic ideals.
[/b]

Indeed, pity there are no more heros, heheh.

1. Evil is Selfish. While everyone has selfish tendencies, and there is always the temptation to give into these for any person, the evil character indulges in these urges.

I like what you came up with to describe evil, and of the two it is generally easier to describe.

Though, I would say that All people do things for selfish reasons, whether it is personal gain at the expense of others (evil), or for the pleasure they get from helping others (good). So, its not really tendencies or temptation because all people follow their desires, the diference is in the purpose/goal/motivation for the selfish interest.

True in D&D they put it as good isnt selfish, however, they really are just their desires generally help more than themsleves.

Here’s a little evidence to help support Osprey’s arguments:

Heheh, just read over the PHB descriptions of the alignments again… that’s always good for a laugh. Yeah, its fairly obvious what each type means when you read over them. Examples LG = Crusader, and CE = Destroyer. Very cookie cutter, however, it does help clarify the ideas behind them… and show how idealistic they are.

Under the descriptions pg, 88: “‘Good’ impies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good Characters make personal sacrifices to help others.”

“‘Evil’ implies hurting, oppressing and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.”

Here’s one to support Raesene’s argument for subjectivity:

The PHB pg 89 describes the first 6 alignments of LG to CN as being, “the standard for PCs. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains”… heheh, If thats not subjective and cookie cutter, I dont know what is.

At 04:12 AM 6/3/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:

> Gary, I like your alignment by points idea, very cool. And I totally

> agree alignments are a very blunt tool to use. However, you seem to be

> arguing for an alignment change and not an alignment infringement, which

> is a different thing. As an alignment change would be the character

> choosing courses of action that reflect a different alignment over a long

> period of time. An alignment infringement would be like those 1 time

> examples that you gave.

Thats true. I was looking more back to the original posters question

about whether or not a domain that entered into a war with a nearby domain

could still be considered “good” on the whole rather than the RP penalty

alignment infringement of the BRCS. As an infraction I think you`re right

it could be considered one. On the whole, however, since most realms by

definition are stuck in a sort of moral compromise, most realms probably

aren`t so far away from neutrality as to warrant an alignment infringement

if the action on the whole can be considered “neutral” or not a negative

effect one what would be their point valued alignment.

Gary