Magic and Sources

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Hi all-

I’ve been thinking. The source for all arcane magic is mebhaighl, correct? Should wizards and magicians (and even bards) have more difficulty casting spells regions of a low source? I don’t mean realm spells, i mean regular spells.

Consider, a Source(7) province should have plenty of magical energy available, meaning the wizard should have plenty of power at his disposal. But the Imperial City of Anuire has a Source of 0. Where does a wizard in the city gain the magical energy to cast anything at all?

Thoughts?

-Fizz

2

I believe that there is some special condition in the Imperial City. Forget the source ( I think either the Book of Mage Craft covers it, or it was sourced in one of the write-ups that used to be on the site), but apparently there are some ley nexus beneath the city that can be tapped by the Wizards of the city.

3

OK, but i wasn’t meaning just for the Imperial City. As a general rule, should spellcasters have a more difficult time in casting their spells in low-source regions as compared to high-source regions?

As it stands, a spellcaster is just as effective in the middle of a large developed area as he would be in the middle of an untamed forest. I’m thinking there should be some impact on the character.

-Fizz

4

Sorry, I saw the reference and figured that you were asking specifically about Anuire.

I will check out the Book of Mage Craft and look at the 3.5 rules. I’ve been playing under the 2E and another series of rules to govern other aspects of my campaign, so I’ll get back to you.

It is an interesting point though.

Jenn

5

Fizz schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
>You can view the entire thread at:
>http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2873
>
>Fizz wrote:
>OK, but i wasn`t meaning just for the Imperial City. As a general rule, should spellcasters have a more difficult time in casting their spells in low-source regions as compared to high-source regions?

As it stands, a spellcaster is just as effective in the middle of a large developed area as he would be in the middle of an untamed forest. I`m thinking there should be some impact on the character.
>
Would you by the same logic say, that Druids are handicaped casting
normal spells in large cities or clerics in areas where there is no
temple of their deity? Then you ought also apply penaltys for
city-rogues when stealing apples from a farmhouse or whenever else some
character is not in his natural environment.
bye
Michael

6

> Fizz wrote:
> OK, but i wasn`t meaning just for the Imperial City. As a general rule,

should spellcasters have a more difficult time in casting their spells in
low-source regions as compared to high-source regions?

As it stands, a spellcaster is just as effective in the middle of a large
developed area as he would be in the middle of an untamed forest. I`m
> thinking there should be some impact on the character.

This has been discussed in the past. Not just in provinces with low
magical levels, but in provinces with claimed source levels, a true wizard
might have a hard time casting spells. For instance, say a province has a
source 5. The Sword Mage controls 3 of those levels, and 2 are
uncontrolled.

By one version, any mage in the province can cast up to a level 5 spell.

By another, the SM can cast up to level 3 spells, and anyone else can cast
up to level 2 spells due to the two uncontrolled levels.

Both of these rules would make exceptions for the lesser magics like
illusion and divination, which would be available anywhere.

It is a very flavorful idea. Ties wizards very strongly to their domains.

The downside is that it makes being a source-less adventuring wizard
impossible beyond about 5th level, because your higher-level spells will
be mostly inaccessible to you. It makes it very hard for a regent wizard
to go on adventures unless he has a months lead time to forge a ley line into the province he plans on adventuring in. Alternatively, they might make a bunch of wands of spell to take adventuring with them, but that ties the wizards even more to magical items and many people already complain about D&Ds reliance on items.

In short, it is a bad idea if you plan on your campaign involving
adventuring.

If your domain is entirely realm-based, or you really want source holders
to be gods among wizards, then go for it, because it will definitely
emphasize the primacy of source holders.

–
Daniel McSorley

7

For comparison, consider the Midnight campaign setting. Here the evil god has conquered all the lands and is slowly draining the world of magic. He and his evil-doers use sinks called Black Mirrors to do this. Spellcasters that get near one of these need to spend more energy to cast a spell. Midnight uses a spellpoint system for spells, so the mechanics of this are easy- the closer to the drain, the more spell points required.

I think this same principle could be applied to Birthright. The lesser the source province you’re in, the more difficult it is to cast. But Birthright uses a classic spellcasting system, so i don’t know how this could be done. Though perhaps some people already house-rule a spell point system <shrug>.

Hope that clarifies my question a little bit.

-Fizz

8

Though this also gets into the question of `what is a source’? Is a source a physical location that you can physically control. Or is it just a term to quantify the inherent amount of magic a given patch of land has?

True magic doesn’t require a source. Only realm magic does. True magic still draws upon mebhaighl however. If mebhaighl is all around, a property of the untamed land, then how does a wizard who controls a source control the magic? Mebhaighl is everywhere, just not uniformly distributed.

For comparison, conquering the tallest mountain doesn’t mean you can prevent people from breathing.

-Fizz

9

At 10:17 AM 12/22/2005, Fizz wrote:

>I`ve been thinking. The source for all arcane magic is mebhaighl,

correct? Should wizards and magicians (and even bards) have more
difficulty casting spells regions of a low source? I don`t mean
>realm spells, i mean regular spells.
>
>Consider, a Source(7) province should have plenty of magical energy
>available, meaning the wizard should have plenty of power at his
>disposal. But the Imperial City of Anuire has a Source of 0. Where
>does a wizard in the city gain the magical energy to cast anything at all?

Im not personally inclined to think a lack of mebhaighl should necessarily hamper "conventional" spellcasting. Mebhaighl is the (a?) source of true or high magic, but not necessarily the source of all arcane magic. Illusion, divination and bard magic are unaffected by the presence (or lack) of mebhaighl in most of the campaign materials. It might be reasonable to assume that the effect had some sort of impact, but since theres nothing to indicate that mebhaighl
was necessary before Deismaar it seems to me that those kinds of
spells should remain unaltered by it.

I have, however, long been a proponent of benefits to conventional
spellcasting for wizards who control sources while they in their
“home” provinces or ones that they have ley lines to. Increases in
effective spellcaster level, for instance, by source level and
various effects having to do with their ability to interact with the
natural environment like bonuses to checks dealing with “wild”
animals in their demesne. Things like that.

Gary

10

What does Deismaar have to do with mebhaighl? Mebhaighl has always been in the land, even before Deismaar.

-Fizz

11

As said previously, limiting a wizard based on source levels is just far too
severely limiting for an adventuring based campaign. However, in the form
of feats and presitge classes, 3e does have mechanics that at least allow us
to harness the spirit or flavor of such a change, if not the actual
limitations. For example, you couldnt very well limit a wizards
spellcasting for low source levels, but you could come up with feats that
allow a wizard to benefit from them and such a thing would be in the spirit
of 3e.

It wouldnt be recommended though if youre overly concerned with game
balance to the point of paranoia. Random numbers and DM-controlled
circumstances and all. The fact that you could entertain such alarming
ideas, however, implies otherwise so let`s have a little fun for the sake of
flavor:

[Ley Master]
Benefit: Choose a terrain type: plains, mountains, tundra, forest, urban,
etc. When in a province of that terrain type, you recieve a bonus to the DC
of all spells you cast equal to the number of unclaimed potential source
holdings within that province.

I believe there was a prestige class in Defenders of the Faith regarding a
holy defender of a church that got bonuses and such when defending the
church. This could probably be adapted to create a wizard that defends
his own sources.

For my own campaign, however, I assume that the magical energy to power
spells comes from the wizards own bloodline. The wizards own bloodline
contains arcane and divine energy recieved in the explosion at Deismaar.
The magical energy used to power Realm Spells is a whole seperate animal
using the power of the land which I call Leythium and it is generated by
source holdings and channelled by ley lines. Leythium is both arcane and
divine, created when the gods, the Great in Magic, exploded in Deismaar.
Druids and Wizards can use source holdings to cast realm spells, but only
Wizards can use Ley Lines which the druids regard as magical abominations.
The explosion of Azrai also left a corrupting form of Leythium, resulting in
Dark Sources. Evil druids harness these magics for terrible realm spells.
Fortunately, energy from Dark Sources can`t be channelled through ley
lines.

12

At 01:44 PM 12/22/2005, Fizz wrote:

>>It might be reasonable to assume that the effect had some
>>sort of impact, but since there`s nothing to indicate that mebhaighl

was necessary before Deismaar it seems to me that those kinds of
spells should remain unaltered by it.

What does Deismaar have to do with mebhaighl? Mebhaighl has always
been in the land, even before Deismaar.

Deismaar is what gave (non-elven) scions the ability to connect to
cast true (conventional) magic spells, while mebhaighl is really more
related to realm magic and sources than to either lesser or true
(conventional) magic in the BoM and the RB. Take a look at the
“Fundamentals of Cerilian Magic” BoM p4 and “Magic and Realm Spells”
RB p81 to see what I mean. In both those sections the discussion of
true magic is associated with bloodline while realm magic and sources
are associated with mebhaighl. Fundamentally, bloodline = access to
true magic, mebhaighl = sources and the power of realm magic.

The lesser magic of illusion, divination and that of bards, on the
other hand, isnt really explained or associated with something campaign-specific at all. They dont have any direct connection to
mebhaighl, bloodline or anything else in particular other than the
bard association with elven magic. At least, there`s nothing in the
original materials that I can recall reading that connects them in any way.

So if the argument is that all arcane spellcasters should be
penalized in some way when casting spells in provinces with low
source holdings (or where the source potential has been lowered by
population or other effects) then Id say the original materials dont necessarily support that idea. Its not an unreasonable thing to do (and as has been noted that kind of thing isnt uncommon in
other fantasy worlds) but I think it goes a step or two beyond the
original ideas expressed in BR.

Gary

13

OK, the way it read to me in your previous post was to imply that there was no mebhaighl before Deismaar.

Take a look at the
“Fundamentals of Cerilian Magic” BoM p4 and “Magic and Realm Spells”
RB p81 to see what I mean. In both those sections the discussion of
true magic is associated with bloodline while realm magic and sources
are associated with mebhaighl. Fundamentally, bloodline = access to
true magic, mebhaighl = sources and the power of realm magic.

Ah, but a bloodline is only required if you’re not an elf. Mebhaighl doesn’t require a bloodline to harness. But a non-elf requires a bloodline to harness it.

The lesser magic of illusion, divination and that of bards, on the
other hand, isnt really explained or associated with something campaign-specific at all. They dont have any direct connection to
mebhaighl, bloodline or anything else in particular other than the
bard association with elven magic.

I will look it up in the original materials tonight, but if you see the BRCS, chapter 3, under Arcane Magic:

“All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl (meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower.”

Thus, magicians and bards and even rangers harness mebhaighl. They can’t harness it to the full extent of wizards, but they’re still using it.

I assume the BRCS has been written it this way either from other sources or by deductive reasoning of the original sources. But for what it’s worth, this has been my understanding of things ever since i bought the original boxed set.

Its not an unreasonable thing to do (and as has been noted that kind of thing isnt uncommon in
other fantasy worlds) but I think it goes a step or two beyond the
original ideas expressed in BR.

Of course, another way to justify it is that True and Lesser Magic don’t require nearly the amount of power than Realm Magic does. A couple AA batteries can’t run your car but they can run your radio just fine. :slight_smile:

-Fizz

14

At 02:47 PM 12/22/2005, Fizz wrote:

>>Take a look at the
>>“Fundamentals of Cerilian Magic” BoM p4 and “Magic and Realm Spells”
>>RB p81 to see what I mean. In both those sections the discussion of
>>true magic is associated with bloodline while realm magic and sources
>>are associated with mebhaighl. Fundamentally, bloodline = access to
>>true magic, mebhaighl = sources and the power of realm magic.
>
>Ah, but a bloodline is only required if you`re not an

elf. Mebhaighl doesn`t require a bloodline to harness. But a
>non-elf requires a bloodline to harness it.

Right. That should be “bloodline/elven blood = access to true magic,
mebhaighl = sources and the power of realm magic.”

>>The lesser magic of illusion, divination and that of bards, on the
>>other hand, isn`t really explained or associated with something

campaign-specific at all. They dont have any direct connection to &gt;&gt;mebhaighl, bloodline or anything else in particular other than the &gt;&gt;bard association with elven magic. &gt; &gt;I will look it up in the original materials tonight, but if you see &gt;the BRCS, chapter 3, under Arcane Magic: &gt; &gt;"All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. &gt;When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple &gt;cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power &gt;of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their &gt;mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that &gt;inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl &gt;(meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower." &gt; &gt;Thus, magicians and bards and even rangers harness mebhaighl. They &gt;cant harness it to the full extent of wizards, but theyre still using it. &gt; &gt;I assume the BRCS has been written it this way either from other &gt;sources or by deductive reasoning of the original sources. But for &gt;what its worth, this has been my understanding of things ever since
i bought the original boxed set.

It is something of a vaguely defined issue in the original
materials. Like anything (BRCS Update or original BR texts) one has
to be careful with colour text. It is what gives a campaign its
flavour, but when it doesnt necessarily correlate to game mechanics it can be a little bit of a problem, especially when there are game mechanics that reflect other campaign materials because of the desire to portray campaign materials with actual game rules. The thing that always gets me is the comments about there being so few characters able to cast true magic--because the "six or seven score" or "150" describe appears to ignore elves, the number of wizards actually extolled in the published materials, and doesnt really define what
it means by “true wizards” in that it could just be referring to
those characters with 5 levels in the wizard class since, after all,
only 5th level or higher wizards access “true” 3rd level spells from
schools other than illusion or divination. For all anybody knows it
could refer to “wizards” in the “named level” manner that 1e
used. That is, it wasn`t until a character was an 11th level
magic-user that one was a “wizard.” People regularly read that text
to mean there are only than many characters with levels in the wizard
class in the whole of Cerilia, which strikes me as a reasonable
casual reading of a poorly written colour comment.

BR is particularly problematic in this regard because so much of the
original 2e material was written with a vocabulary that was poorly
defined, or had the particulars of the relationships between the
campaign dynamics were vaguely expressed. This is from what I can
tell one of those cases.

In this particular case, I`d be interested in hearing what the
inspiration for that portion of the BRCS might be. From what in the
original materials was in inspired?

Gary

15

In the vos book sources are described as having physical manifestations,be it a tree or some other natural object.Such sources are often warded by spells as well.They can be physically destroyed.

Of course this is contradictory to the rules for domain play,but DMs may use DM fiat to interpret that bit of fluff as they see fit.

16

I’m not certain what you are talking about in reference to the Vos book (i.e., Tribes of the Heartless Wastes) but

The BRCS domain rules reflect the intent of the rules in the BoM which is the definitive source of rules for sources and manifestations in the 2nd ed rules. The BRCS did, however, attempt to expand and fill in the gaps present in the BoM text. It is consistent with the 2nd ed rules though.

BoM pg 17+ talks about them.

It talks about manifestations being resistant to normal wear and damage from the elements and from “ordinary” people. It does talk about how deliberate violence can damage a manifestation and rarely the source itself.

It also talks about natural regeneration of sources and manifestations themselves. Now, like most things in the 2nd ed rules there is a lot missing in regards to details.

BRCS:

Source manifestations usually do not require protection from ordinary people – few pass nearby. More importantly, the earthpower itself enhances the power of the manifestation and makes it largely immune to harm. Manifestations resist normal wear and damage from the elements (earth, air, fire, and water) including flooding, erosion, lightning, or forest fire. Deliberate violence, however, can harm manifestations and – rarely – even the source itself. Because of the mystical link between regent mages and their sources, they become immediately aware when a claimed manifestation is disturbed. This awareness generally ranges from a feeling of mild discomfort to actual acute physical pain.

Magic-based attacks and determined physical attacks can eventually destroy a manifestation. A source manifestation has spell resistance equal to 20 + 2 x source level. Furthermore, source manifestations have damage resistance (from all sources of harm) equal to 2 x source level. Finally, damaged sources regenerate damage at the rate of 1 hit point per source level / round.

Any normal harm done to a manifestation is temporary. Destruction of a manifestation temporarily disrupts the flow of mebhaighl through the source and prevents the regent mage from tapping the source to use realm magic. The source will produce a new manifestation in less than a month. Only damage to the source through realm level actions (such as contesting the source holding, casting the realm spell destroy source, or the massive destruction of a province’s woodlands through specific military action) has any lasting effect.

17

BoM pg 4 has the intro section which talks about mebhaighl and a vague reference to it in regards to “magic”.

“There are three types of magic in Cerilia – lesser magic, true magic and realm magic. Each has different uses and is important in its own right. They differ in the amount of knowledge of and control of mebhaighl that their practitioners must exercise.”

Then under the text for true magic it has the following “Its command requires a deeper understanding of mebhaighl than that which magicians can attain.”

So the 2nd ed material definitely had all arcane magic (3.5 terminology while 2nd ed called it “magic”) using meghaighl in some manner.

Now IMO Cerilia is rich in mebhaighl and it exists almost everywhere.

Magicians and bards utilize such low levels of mebhaighl for their spells that they are unaffected by the strength of the mebhaighl in the area. Which is why their magic works well in cities and such.

They are incapable of harnessing greater amounts of mebhaighl so proximity to a source or manifestation would have little no no effect on their spellcasting abilities. If it did then, IMO, they would have a chance of burn out or being overpowered by the mebhaighl itself - must likely resulting in the death.

A case could be made based on this to have true mages have a variable ability to cast their spells due to the mebhaighl level in the area. This causes a lot of game-mechanic problems, IMO, and tends to parallel the defiling magic system of Dark Sun which is based on the strength of nature to power their spells.

I would say that the true magics require more mebhaighl than lesser magics but the amount necessary is readily accessible in almost all places in Cerilia - it just requires a greater effort ot focus, which is incorporated into the sorcerer/wizard class abilities themselves.

Realm spells, however, require such vast amounts of mebhaighl that they need the proximity to pools of mebhaighl that are sources/manifestations.

18

Rangers do not harness mebhaighl. They are divine casters and are powered differently, even elven rangers.

Only arcane casters harness mebhaighl.

19

Gary,

There are lot of topics in your last post.

What question was it that you had wanted answered?

20

Hmmm… more confusion between core books and the BRCS. From Chapter one of the BRCS, Ranger:

“Unlike Cerilian clerics and druids, Cerilian rangers do not receive their spells from a patron deity. The limited spellcasting abilities of Cerilian rangers are rooted in their understanding of nature and the channeling of mebhaighl through their force of will alone.”

I thought this was intentional because otherwise you could not have elven rangers.

-Fizz