B)
Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Sep 8 2004, 07:58 PM
B)
I totally agree with Raspk on this.
The Jew wrote:
I agree with Duane on this. I don’t have a problem with any of the shadow spells, but I think that Shades is to strong for a 6th level magician spell. I would vote to either drop it, or extend the magicians spell selection to 7th level (8 levels total) and make Shades a 7th level spell.
Duly noted. Anyone else?
Otherwise I think the Class looks great. Wonderful job Osprey
Thank’ee, sir.
ConjurerDragon wrote:
- I have no objection of a Magician casting Magic Missile as the 2E
Magician was able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells of ALL schools. The
Book of Magecraft even had a Magician who researched a Magic Missile as
Battle spell - that might have been broken gamebalance, but taking that
spell away from the Magician entirely seems strange to me.
Hmmm…well that being said, I’m leaning toward adding it in to the spell list. It does fit one vision of the magician, to be certain.
Anyone else? To Magic Missile or not to Magic Missile? That is the question…
- Should Magicians need Wizards to create their instruments for them,
e.g. the typical Crystal Ball that every specialist in Divination would
desire? I think no, so I would allow Magicians to take the Create
Wondrous Item feat - why not every specialist Wizard can take it.
Agreed.
- I always saw the Magician as in the 2E version as mainly a
doublespecialized Mage with fewer schools of Magic, and with 1+2 level
spells of all schools and some Thief abilitys to compensate, so I do
not understand the need to take away the spells of higher levels from
the Magician. There might be only few spells of Illusion and Divination
of the higher levels above 6 but why take them away from him? If he
knows only few levels of that spell he can always fill those slots with
spells that have been raised to that level by metamagic feats.
So you favor a more or less straight spellcasting conversion, plus some rogue-type class abilities to compensate. I was building a list based on the last poll which said most folks preferred a BRCS-style “boosted” spell list.
The problem with rogue abilities, IMO, is that the magician looks a little TOO much like the bard, while I was aiming for a more wizardly type of class that more parallels than overlaps with the bard - though in my last writeup their spell lists are somewhat comparable with different emphasis of schools.
I can understand the concept for certain rogue abilities (evasion, high Reflex) - even Sneak Attack makes sense for divination specialists getting insightful attacks against weak points - but I think this better fits a certain niche of sorcerers - rogue/magicians are great candidates to become Arcane Tricksters, who might fit your concept very well in their combination of arcane and rogue powers.
Osprey
While i’m Hesitant to remove shadow spells(a staple of the illusion school) I agree in that they are powerful and should either be altered to fit lower level versions(seems bad). or left at thier level while the others are bumped down. I’m in favor of a 7 level system but would accept 6 or 9 as easily.
At 05:49 AM 9/9/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:
>>I agree with Duane on this. I don`t have a problem with any of the shadow
spells, but I think that Shades is to strong for a 6th level magician
spell. I would vote to either drop it, or extend the magicians spell
selection to 7th level (8 levels total) and make Shades a 7th level spell.
Duly noted. Anyone else?
Well, when coming up with a spell list a while back I noted that I think
the shadow oriented spells would be quite appropriate for a magician
oriented prestige class, so I`ll reiterate that here. On the whole I think
that would make for a more interesting character class D20 system.
I understand prestige classes are being avoided, but in addition to the
argument that the shadow spells allow access to what is, effectively, true
magic in the BR setting (albeit a diminished version of true magic) the SW
has such a particular role in the campaign that I think very nature of
those spells lend themselves to true magic rather than that available to
“common” magicians.
>I have no objection of a Magician casting Magic Missile as the 2EMagician
>was able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells of ALL schools. TheBook of
>Magecraft even had a Magician who researched a Magic Missile asBattle
>spell - that might have been broken gamebalance, but taking thatspell away
>from the Magician entirely seems strange to me.
>-----------------------------
>
>Hmmm…well that being said, I`m leaning toward adding it in to the spell
list. It does fit one vision of the magician, to be certain.Anyone
else? To Magic Missile or not to Magic Missile? That is the question…
I`m pro Magicians w/ MM.
Gary
I am in agreement with the rest of the populace:[ul][li]No biggy “Shadow [what eve]” spells.[/li][li]Yes to Marvelous Magic Missile (©2004 3M 
).[/li][/ul]
OK, so 2 changes at least to amend to the spell list:
Magic Missile will be added as a 1st level spell. I will, however, keep the elemental effects (like Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, and Flaming Sphere) off the list.
Shades will be removed, and I will bump Greater Shadow Conjuration up to 6th level…
Now, what I’d like to do is amend Greater Shadow Evocation so that the Magician version of the spell duplicates mage spells up to 6th level only, but is still 60% real.
It’s not exactly true to standardized form, but I think it’s a better solution that simply eliminating it and leaving only the regular Shadow Evocation (4th level/20% real). If that’s not acceptable I can always make an in-between version, like Improved Shadow Evocation or something.
[b]Well, when coming up with a spell list a while back I noted that I think
the shadow oriented spells would be quite appropriate for a magician
oriented prestige class, so I`ll reiterate that here. On the whole I think
that would make for a more interesting character class D20 system.
I understand prestige classes are being avoided, but in addition to the
argument that the shadow spells allow access to what is, effectively, true
magic in the BR setting (albeit a diminished version of true magic) the SW
has such a particular role in the campaign that I think very nature of
those spells lend themselves to true magic rather than that available to
“common” magicians.[/b]
I remember your previous posts on the subject. I think you could make a Shadow Mage prestige class without eliminating the shadow spells from the Magician spell list. You’d just have to be a little more creative. 
As the Shadow World is so intimately connected to Illusion (the Seeming is what I consider “shadowstuff”, the manifest fabric of the SW), it seems wrong to me to seperate the SW from magicians. I don’t think this is at all the province only of true magic, I think magicians should be rather expert at dealing with its illusory nature - or at least that aspect of it.
However, true mages still have a much more powerful and solid connection to it, as represented by spells like Summon Monster, Dimension Door, Teleport, Planar Binding, Etherealness, and so on. The magician is left only with quasi-real mimicry of some of this stuff, and simple exclusion from the rest. I think this is a picture-perfect example of lesser vs. true magic. The magician can only imitate the real thing, but good illusions CAN be convincing and thus just as effective, at least to the weak-minded…
As removing the shadow spells would significantly weaken the magician’s spell list, and for the reasons above as to why I like them, I’m going to leave most of them unless there’s a large chorus of agreement that they should be removed.
Osprey
Here is another poll to be closed, if only to clear up the outstanding polls.
Results are:
How should we define them?
Use bonuses based on being “specialists”. [ 0 ] [0.00%]
Use special abilities above being “specialists”. [ 2 ] [28.57%]
Use a combination of the above as inspiration. [ 5 ] [71.43%]
Total Votes: 7