Magician Spell List

Dungeons & Dragons BRCS 3.0/3.5 Edition
21

When it comes to the themes and interpretations of the magician class in a

3e conversion I would suggest that certain ones (a “witch” or one of the

ones described as kits in 2e in the BoM) might be best expressed as

prestige classes or through a judicious use of metamagic feats rather than

as part of the magician class itself. Curses, for example, are part of one

might consider the stereotype of black magic. In 3e Bestow Curse is in the

transmutation school, which would normally not be allowed to a BR

magician. However, one could give access to that school (or just that

spell and ones like it) through a prestige class or a metamagic

feat. Picture, for example a prestige class available to magicians that

gave them access to a special ability called, say, “Dark Magic” that gave

them the effect of school specialization (one additional spell memorized

per day of the following list & +2 to spellcraft to learn spells of that

school) and access to the following spells normally not available to

magicians, including Bestow Curse and related spells. Because of the

progressive nature of that special ability (spells by level) the class need

not have a lot of other special abilities.

Generally, I think that`s the best way to go, but one could include various

BR-specific metamagic feats to allow magicians access to things. The

creation of magical traps, poisons, etc. might all be things available to

particular magicians.

Gary

22

I think that making prestige classes that grant the benefits of specialisation without heavily penalising their “user” are broken because one might well qualify for more than one such prestige class. For example, my Elementalist prestige class granted SEVERAL benefits in regard to casting spells from one of the four empedocleian elements but could not cast spells from its opposing element.

23

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jul 17 2004, 09:34 PM
Err, I think you misunderstood me here; what I meant is that the Athasian bard as portrayed in www.athas.org fits the idea I have of class features suitable to the magician perfectly:

Not really.

I did say that several other sources (implied to include the athas.org one) could be used for examples of abilities for a magician class. I only wanted to point out that the master of poison one was not one, IMO. And it is a central theme for athasian bards though.

24

I had some thoughts in general on the magician.

Spell List:

sor/Wiz

Reduce the level of all illusion and divination spells by 1, minimum zero

Elliminate Necromancy entirely

Allow 1-3 level transmutation, enchantment, and abjuration as is

allow 1-2 level evocation and conjuration as is

exception, increase by 1 the level of all spells that do damage

Cleric, add all clerical illusion or divination magic that at the clerical level

add cure wounds series at level +1

Abilities

At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus…

At 4, 8, 12,16 & 20

Illusionists gain +1 dodge bonus to AC
Diviners gain +1 premonition bonus to hit

at 5, 10 15, 20 gain a free meta magic feat, or spell mastery

beginning when they can cast level 2 spells they can substitute a spell 2 levels lower for which they have spell mastery for any prepared spell and cast it spontaneously, IE they can cast a level 0 spell in place of a lmemorized level 2 spell if they have spell mastery of the level 0 spell…

just some initial thoughts

25

At 01:41 PM 7/18/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>I think that making prestige classes that grant the benefits of

>specialisation without heavily penalising their “user” are broken because

>one might well qualify for more than one such prestige class.

Since the magician already has so many schools of magic that are

unavailable to him the penalty is already built in, as it were. Unless one

wants to prohibit them from access to illusion or divination spells… In

this case, however, I`d compare the process to the way certain divine

prestige classes grant access to another domain.

For example, my Elementalist prestige class granted SEVERAL benefits in

regard to casting spells from one of the four empedocleian elements but

could not cast spells from its opposing element.

That`s a nice, handy opposition there.

Gary

26

[b]I had some thoughts in general on the magician.

Spell List:

sor/Wiz

Reduce the level of all illusion and divination spells by 1, minimum zero

Elliminate Necromancy entirely

Allow 1-3 level transmutation, enchantment, and abjuration as is

allow 1-2 level evocation and conjuration as is

exception, increase by 1 the level of all spells that do damage

Cleric, add all clerical illusion or divination magic that at the clerical level

add cure wounds series at level +1[/b]

Have you laid this out to see what it looks like when written down? What I mean is that until the spells are written down on paper so that they can physically be looked at, the distribution of the spells is not obvious and the actual power level of the class (in regards to spells) is lost or overlooked.

[b]At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus…[/b]

Except that specialization must be taken at 1st level. That is unless you don’t mean specialization as specialization is written in the PHB but rather a ‘path focus’ type of thing.

[b]At 4, 8, 12,16 & 20

Illusionists gain +1 dodge bonus to AC
Diviners gain +1 premonition bonus to hit[/b]

Now it looks like a duo path class (like the latest version of the noble). Makes sense, but should be laid out that way.

at 5, 10 15, 20 gain a free meta magic feat, or spell mastery

Real close to the wizard, except for missing the item creation feats, which probably apply just as well. There are a lot of illusion/divination items that magicians should be able to create, probably better than wizards. IMO the class needs to differ from the wizard in order to make it more attractive as a class and not just a degenerate wizard. Maybe the feats only apply to divination or illusion spells (depending on the path chosen).

[b]beginning when they can cast level 2 spells they can substitute a spell 2 levels lower for which they have spell mastery for any prepared spell and cast it spontaneously, IE they can cast a level 0 spell in place of a lmemorized level 2 spell if they have spell mastery of the level 0 spell. . .

just some initial thoughts[/b]

Double check which spells are necromancy ones. Some of them seem tome to be quite appropriate for a magician;

Blindness/deafness, the symbol spells, etc. Just a note that this should be looked over before dismissing them in entirety.

Looking it over, again the class will remain low level spell heavy with a tremendous shortage of higher level spells and yet the class abilties are spread over the levels as they progress instead of being inserted when the spells start to taper off. This would make the class one that is taken at low levels and then discarded. This is why the ranger class was redone to prevent people from taking a single level (or few low levels) and then switching classes because the ranger class benefits faded as the class progressed in levels.

27

[b]

Have you laid this out to see what it looks like when written down? What I mean is that until the spells are written down on paper so that they can physically be looked at, the distribution of the spells is not obvious and the actual power level of the class (in regards to spells) is lost or overlooked.

[/b]

Not yet, working on it with that spread sheet. Probably have it sorted out tomorrow.

[b]

[quote][b]At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus…[/b]

Except that specialization must be taken at 1st level. That is unless you don’t mean specialization as specialization is written in the PHB but rather a ‘path focus’ type of thing.

[/b][/quote]

My intent was a path focus kind of thing, exactly like the new rangers. I was also hoping to add some high level abilities appropriate to the path choice, that or allowing the magician to get both at level 10.

[b]

Real close to the wizard, except for missing the item creation feats, which probably apply just as well. There are a lot of illusion/divination items that magicians should be able to create, probably better than wizards. IMO the class needs to differ from the wizard in order to make it more attractive as a class and not just a degenerate wizard. Maybe the feats only apply to divination or illusion spells (depending on the path chosen).

[/b]

I agree mostly. I am letting it remain similar to a wizard in this, i took away item creation so they aren’t free to magicians. I am not restricting them from taking them as normal feats, just as bonus feats.

[b]

Double check which spells are necromancy ones. Some of them seem tome to be quite appropriate for a magician;

Blindness/deafness, the symbol spells, etc. Just a note that this should be looked over before dismissing them in entirety.

[/b]

I am thinking that what would be more appropriate is having equivelant spells that are illusion to the necromancy spells for such specific cases. I can’t think of any in the rules, but it is possible to have races and or individuals that are immune or resistant to illusions, and so the magician should be appropriately weakened.

[b]

Looking it over, again the class will remain low level spell heavy with a tremendous shortage of higher level spells and yet the class abilties are spread over the levels as they progress instead of being inserted when the spells start to taper off. This would make the class one that is taken at low levels and then discarded. This is why the ranger class was redone to prevent people from taking a single level (or few low levels) and then switching classes because the ranger class benefits faded as the class progressed in levels.

[/b]

I agree. I want to take some more time and make sure the spell list is fleshed out nicely. I an figuring some progressive spells, either extended duration or multiple target versions of curtrent spells. I would also like to toss in some abilities as well, although the improved hit die, better combat abilities, and the focus benefit to either AC or attack will in my opinion help a bit because they are staged out.

Just some food for thought

28

Two comments, Irdeggman:[ul][li]What I meant with Class Features should be discribed as Trade Secrets (you know what I mean, from the Athasian bard).[/li][li]The distribution of my ideas was more like the one that applies for rogues. For example, one special ability at 6th level, and others at 11th, 15th, 18th, and 20th level. I think you will well see the pattern here.[/li][/ul]

29

I think the focus of the magician should be on illusion and divination, two schools that favour thinking, both sides of hiding and enlightening the things.
Thus it is neat the concept that magicians are wizards without bloodlines, not sorcerors.
Maybe they should have access to some Prestige Classes as well, the ones dabbling in Alchemy, the others who delve in the shadow stuff, being connected to this dreaded plane.

30

I’ve always like magicians as being skilled alchemists too, but this definitely involves some skill in transmutation…another argument for them not being exclusive specialists

31

I’m closing this poll, even though Osprey started it.

Here are the results:

What guidelines should be used to develop the Magician’s spell list?
2e style: Illusion and Divination schools only of level 3+ [ 6 ] [25.00%]
BRCS style: enhancement-type spells of other schools as well [ 14 ] [58.33%]
Other (please specify in a post) [ 4 ] [16.67%]
Total Votes: 24

It is pretty clear that a clear majority wants the BRCS-style spells. I’d read this as a separate spell list with more than just Illusion and Divination spells on it, but that is up to you all to figure out.

The reason I’m closing this poll is that if polls remain open too long they lose their intent and the results get waered down by time.

It is probably best to start a fresh poll once some more details are worked out. That is a suggested spell list Try using those tools I posted (i.e., the spreadsheet) to help quantify the effect of placing spells on the magician’s spell list.