Need some help brainstorming on Diemed.

Dungeons & Dragons The Royal Library
1

Hello,

Ive dug out my old material for the Players Secrets of Diemed I was writing a few years ago and Ive decided to finish the material. I`ve been
brainstorming over certain items that have always bothered me about the
official TSR write up of the area.

My biggest concern is explaining why the current ruler Hierl Diem, is a
Baron by title, when he is a direct descendant of the original Duke of
Diemed as appointed by the first emperor of Anuire. Diemed was at one
point the largest of the 12 imperial duchies so it stands to reason the
ruling family was indeed a duchal family by title.

Now one idea is that even though Hierl Diem is indeed a Diem, he is a
distant relative of the original Diem line. Say that direct heir, last Duke
of Diemed was slain with no direct heirs. The throne defaulted to a second
cousin, Hierl Diem, who was only a Baron by hereditary title. It does not
have to be Hierl either. It could have been his father, grandfather or so
on. All that is really important is that while he does indeed govern the
remains of one of the twelve Imperial Duchies, he is only a Baron by birth.

Now this idea could hold up if the following where held to be true. Only
the Emperor of Anuire can officially raise someone`s title to Duke, Archduke
or Prince and have it hold up as legitimate by imperial custom and law. ie
Only the Emperor can make a Baron into a Duke. Considering the dominant
faith of the area is the Orthodox Imperial Temple, the last bastion
dedicated to Haelyn that is known to hold stead fast to the old traditions
and ways, this idea could stand up. Hierl or those before him could have
claimed the title of Duke, but the state religion would not have supported
this claim because it is an illegal claim.

You could even throw in a condition imposed by the OIT that the Duchy must
be reunited and the blessings of the emperor obtained before the line can
claim the title of duke. Also the OIT could have put forth a statement that
they will only support the new Diem line`s claim once the nonbelievers of
the Celestial Spell are driven out and the worship of Haelyn reinstated in
the Barony of Braeme (Medoere).

I dont know this is just my interpretation of the situation. Im stuck in
the area of trying to develop material for a PS of Diemed while attempting
to stick to as much cannon material as possible.

Any ideas, comments, flames etc…

-Anakin Miller
ICQ:168168824
atarikid@charter.net

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2

My personal conclusion on the matter is that the OIT declared Diemed a
Barony until it was fully reunited, or at least to the point where the
OIT was satisfied (such as the removal of Medoere and the church of
Rournil there). The Baron is not happy with the OIT for doing this, but
he is determined to make a fight with Medoere instead of the OIT to
solve this problem.

Another thing: Im really interested in Diemed since it is next door to my current Crimelords of the Imperial City campaign, and has always been one of my favorite realms. Could I interest you in using my website to post and develop your Players Secrets? It is a Wiki, meaning anyone can
come in and improve the content on pages. A sort of community effort
thing. I have a good bit of BR material there now, and am slowly working
on more. I`d love to help you with it, and get others interested, too.

My website: http://www.theoretic.com

Contact me if you are interested, thanks. If not, no worries. :slight_smile:

Atari Kid wrote:

Hello,

Ive dug out my old material for the Players Secrets of Diemed I was writing > a few years ago and Ive decided to finish the material. I`ve been
> brainstorming over certain items that have always bothered me about the
> official TSR write up of the area.
>
> My biggest concern is explaining why the current ruler Hierl Diem, is a
> Baron by title, when he is a direct descendant of the original Duke of
> Diemed as appointed by the first emperor of Anuire. Diemed was at one
> point the largest of the 12 imperial duchies so it stands to reason the
> ruling family was indeed a duchal family by title.

–
/ Adam Theo, Age 23, Tallahassee FL USA
// Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
// Pager: (850) 709 7738
=//=====
// || Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
|| “Building Ideas by Bringing them Together”
|| Jabber Protocol: http://www.jabber.org
|| “The Next Generation Communications Protocol”
|| “A Free-Market Socialist Patriotic American Buddhist”

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3

I think the right hand didn`t know what the left hand was doing. I pay no
attention to the goofiness of titles in the published materials. I would
re-invent the wheel in this case, because I prefer round wheels.

One of the thing this gets into the the difference between titles and fiefs,
betweens dukedoms and duchies, but I`ll not throw a match on that barrel of
gasoline.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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4

Kenneth:
> One of the thing this gets into the the difference between
> titles and fiefs, betweens dukedoms and duchies, but I`ll not
> throw a match on that barrel of gasoline.

Go on, you know you want to :slight_smile:

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
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5

I believe that in the upcoming BRCS the leader of Diemed will be listed as Duke Diem, although I could be wrong on this, I haven’t seen much from chapter 5 yet.

I think we assumed that a mistake was made somewhere in the writing of Ruins of Empire, or that material about the 12 archdukes came later on in the creation of the Birthright Setting, so by then it was out of date. Although all the official material does list him as Baron, I’ve just become used to calling him Duke Diem after a player in my old pbem game started doing that and after a while you get used to it.

6

Actually, I’d be interested to know what exactly where the realms of the 12 archdukes.. I don’t remember reading anything specific in the official material. My interpretation is (named after the current-day name of the provinces):
*Boeruine
*Diemed(+Medoere, Roesone)
*Ghoere(not present-day frontiers, but close)
*Alamie(+Tournen)
*Mhoried(the title of Mhor would have been that of a vassal of the original Duke of Mhoried… maybe his military leader)
*Avanil(+Brosengae etc.)
*Elinie(+bits of Markazor, Coeranys)
*Aerenwe(+Caelcorwynn)
*Oesoerde(+ bits of Coeranys)
*Dhoesone(+Talinie, bits of now-Rjuven territory)
*Mieres(and other islands in Straights of Aerele)
*Part of the Gorgon’s Crown (?) before Pr. Raesene settled in.

7

We will include a part dedicated to the 12 original duchies in the new BRCS, including a map.
Morgramen is working on that

Arjan

8

If a list of the 12 duchies, or some discussion of the 12 aren`t in the FAQ,
it ought to be put there - probabaly both on BR.net and where ever the BR-L
FAQ is kept.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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9

If a list of the 12 duchies, or some discussion of the 12 aren`t in the FAQ,
it ought to be put there - probabaly both on BR.net and where ever the BR-L
FAQ is kept.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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10

Perhelion wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=947
>
> Perhelion wrote:
> Actually, Id be interested to know what exactly where the realms of the 12 archdukes.. I dont remember reading anything specific in the official material. My interpretation is (named after the current-day name of the provinces):
> *Boeruine
> *Diemed(+Medoere, Roesone)
> *Ghoere(not present-day frontiers, but close)
Ghoere was a small barony at that time and thus was AFAIK NOT one of he
duchies
> *Alamie(+Tournen)
> *Mhoried(the title of Mhor would have been that of a vassal of the original Duke of Mhoried… maybe his military leader)
> *Avanil(+Brosengae etc.)
> *Elinie(+bits of Markazor, Coeranys)
> *Aerenwe(+Caelcorwynn)
> *Oesoerde(+ bits of Coeranys)
> *Dhoesone(+Talinie, bits of now-Rjuven territory)
Talinie is itself one of the 12 duchies
> *Mieres(and other islands in Straights of Aerele)
Mieres is a colony from Avanil I beleive so that is not one of the 12
> *Part of the Gorgon`s Crown (?) before Pr. Raedene settled in.
>

Cobos

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11

Sorry about not being clear… the names I gave were those of the closest present-day realms. Ghoere would probably have been a barony vassalised to the Duke of (whatever). If sinister reputations are hereditary, the then Baron of Ghoere might have had a hand in the deposition of the Duke.
One of these days I might write (mostly for myself) a history of Anuire along those lines. Nonetheless it would be interesting to compare with what the rest of the community came up with.

12

I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.

If this isn`t the list that is most current, someone will say so.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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13

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Perhelion wrote:
> Sorry about not being clear… the names I gave were those of the
> closest present-day realms. Ghoere would probably have been a barony
> vassalised to the Duke of (whatever). If sinister reputations are
> hereditary, the then Baron of Ghoere might have had a hand in the
> deposition of the Duke.

Gavin Tael has Long Life. He probably started out as a Baron of some
small area, but he now rules two former duchies, and I`d say he carved it
all out himself.

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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14

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
> Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
> Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.

That looks right. That leaves, um, Brosengae, Talinie, Dhoesone,
Coeranys, and Mieres as original non-duchy Anuirean lands. Oh, and I like
to include that island, Suiriene. FAQ the sucker and put it away :slight_smile:

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Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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15

Isnt the ruler of Brosengae a Dke/Duchess in the RoE? And Taeghas is a County, I think. I dont think we can really rely on the 2e materials to
answer this question, since there are many, many inconsistencies about
this subject.

Here`s my list of the 12:

Avanil (principality), Alamie (arch), Mhoried, Ghieste, Dhalane, Diemed,
Aerenwe, Brosengae (includes present day Taeghas, which broke away),
Boeruine (arch), Osoerde, Elinie, Coeranys or Talinie.

Cariele and either Coeranys or Talinie, plus Mieres, Suirene, and
Dhoesone were colonies or other kingdoms that didn`t have full rights in
the Empire.

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
> Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
> Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.
>
> If this isn`t the list that is most current, someone will say so.

–
/ Adam Theo, Age 23, Tallahassee FL USA
// Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
// Pager: (850) 709 7738
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// || Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
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16

In this case I usually just ignore what Ruins of
Empire says on the matter and make Diem a duke.

— Atari Kid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET> wrote:
> My biggest concern is explaining why the current
> ruler Hierl Diem, is a
> Baron by title, when he is a direct descendant of
> the original Duke of
> Diemed as appointed by the first emperor of Anuire.
> Diemed was at one
> point the largest of the 12 imperial duchies so it
> stands to reason the
> ruling family was indeed a duchal family by title.

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17

Yay!
This is one of my favourite arguments about BR.

My personal list of the Twelve Archduchies is this:

  1. Aerenwe - currently a “Kingdom”
  2. Alamie - still an Archduchy
  3. Avanil - currently a “Principality”
  4. Boeruine - still an Archduchy
  5. Brosengae - still an Archduchy
  6. Cariele - currently a “County” or a “Barony”
  7. Dhalaene - subsumed into the Grand Duchy of Ghoere
  8. Diemed - still an Archduchy (sorry Anakin ;))
  9. Elinie - overun by foreigners, currently a “Duchy”
  10. Ghieste - subsumed into the Grand Duchy of Ghoere
  11. Mhoried - still an Archduchy
  12. Osoerde - still an Archduchy, despite Raenech`s usurpation

I personally see Taeghas, Talinie, Coeranys and Dhoesone as being
“march-counties” (to adopt the more traditional title hierarchy). To my
mind Archduchies were a special title appiled to the closest and most
important vassals of the Emperor at the founding of the Empire. Later
territories could be ruled by Dukes (such as those carved out in
Brechtur and the Basarji lands) but there were only ever the twelve
Archdukes. This would serve to mitigate some of the effects of the
“title-inflation” that no doubt occurred as the Empire expanded.

–
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

“Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All.”
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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18

>From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
>I personally see Taeghas, Talinie, Coeranys and Dhoesone as being
>“march-counties” (to adopt the more traditional title hierarchy).

Yes I also see this for the respective realms.
I give Baron the Anuirean style and Thane as the Old Boru style. I do think
the Margrave (old Boru) title fits here best but of course your language
preference could differ for the marchlands.

>To my
>mind Archduchies were a special title appiled to the closest and most
>important vassals of the Emperor at the founding of the Empire.

I think the style of Archduke is an old Boru tradition of naming a prince
who is not the direct decendant of the king/emperor and is equal rank to a
royal prince title. By choice the house of Boeruine continues to the
present date leaving a distinction from the anuirean style system. A
similar point is the Mora king title is Mhor which is equivlalent to duke in
Anuirean rank system. My interpretation of course I yield to your judgement
in your own campaigns on this.

To me the house of Boru is the second house of Andu allow for the
distinction of Archduke from such ancient ties. This distinguishes the
title Archduke from that of Duke as a higher ranked title not just by honor
or prestige. This also give claim that they are of royal blood. If you
interpret the title Archduke according to my Anuirean system of rank and
styles it translates to Royal Prince which is above Furst (Avan). The
disctinction of Archduke from Royal Prince is that of direct decendant. A
Royal Prince could be a direct decendant and Archduke never could be unless
the claim falls upon him after a line dies.

As far as the other duchies of the empire they are simply duchies of
nobility without royal ties. This includes the House of Avan which now
claims the princely title of prince not the royal title.

Marriages are another discussion that would tie into the argument of who is
the rightful heir so I do not see it fitting into this line of argument.

>Later
>territories could be ruled by Dukes (such as those carved out in
>Brechtur and the Basarji lands) but there were only ever the twelve
>Archdukes. This would serve to mitigate some of the effects of the
>“title-inflation” that no doubt occurred as the Empire expanded.

From my understanding the other carved territories were principalites, this
is open of course to our own interpretations. Some could have been ruled by
dukes. However if a principality is dilineated the regent assumes this
title. In my system only a royal prince can claim a royal title. A duke
could become regent over a principality and become a prince of a princely
title but not royal as in the case of Avan.

As far as title inflation the only place I really can see this is in the
cases of temples, wizards, and Sendoure. This is also up to interpretation.

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