OCP - Levels of lawlessness

Dungeons & Dragons MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999
1

Personally, I don’t feel that we can completely eliminate or even try to
rule out the idea of someone being accosted “in broad daylight.”
Remember that we are trying to create an atmosphere very much like the
medieval or early renaissance eras which had a great deal of both
political and social violence. Although attempts can be made to control
such actions, they really can’t be eliminated since that would diminish
much of the flavor or ambience of the time period. Of course, the legal
system, whatever it may be, could attempt to use such actions for gain
to the city by establishing rules of conduct that if broken caused the
perpetrator to pay some rather hefty fines. If I’m not mistaken, that
was the general idea which came out in the last Greyhawk publications
(Out of the Ashes). The general idea was that the city needed funds
much more than it needed to throw people into jails. Most persons, if
able, were forced to pay very large fines rather than go to jail. Only
those persons found guilty of the more heinous crimes (murder. Treason,
etc.) were unable to pay their way out of actual prison terms.

Another way we could handle some of the more common acts of violence,
such as rivalries between clans, families, guilds, etc. is to create a
dueling system such as that explained in the players handbook of
Tuornen. I believe that the first level is a contest of words or a
simple debate, then slowly but surely moving up to a duel with weapons.

Every city, even today, has its good and bad locations. Being robbed,
beaten, or even killed in one area is much more likely to occur in one
than in the other. Those representing the law will have a much easier
time keeping the peace amongst the more affluent (although a good deal
of assignation attempts will still occur) than amongst the poor. It’s
kind of a sad illustration of our social structure but very true.
Eliminating that type of violence or even the threat of harm in the
society that we are trying to create in the Imperial City would be
pretty much impossible. However, it would be much safer than most other
uncivilized areas of Cerilia.

2

>
> Personally, I don’t feel that we can completely eliminate or even try to
> rule out the idea of someone being accosted “in broad daylight.”
>
I don’t mind political & social violence, within reason. But having
participated in “anything goes” campaigns where you’d get in a “bar fight”
in the inn, which would result in the massacre of the patrons, and then
when the Watch shows up the goal was to slaughter them as well & then have
a good nights sleep upstairs, well, that’s not the atmosphere we want,
either. We need a kind of middle ground; where one can have, say, a
“roaring '20s” mob violence perhaps, but not a “Emirikol the Chaotic”
(P.193 of the 1st edition DMG) situation.

> (Out of the Ashes). The general idea was that the city needed funds
> much more than it needed to throw people into jails. Most persons, if
> able, were forced to pay very large fines rather than go to jail. Only
> those persons found guilty of the more heinous crimes (murder. Treason,
> etc.) were unable to pay their way out of actual prison terms.
>
Oh, don’t worry: I’m in favor of heafty fines & mutilation (slitting their
noses, branding them with embarassing poems on the forehead, etc) as
penaltys.

> Another way we could handle some of the more common acts of violence,
> such as rivalries between clans, families, guilds, etc. is to create a
> dueling system such as that explained in the players handbook of
> Tuornen. I believe that the first level is a contest of words or a
> simple debate, then slowly but surely moving up to a duel with weapons.
>
Vendetta justice certainly can be fun. :sunglasses:

> Every city, even today, has its good and bad locations.
>
Oh, that was another thing: I was going to have “neighborhood”
classifications for how well the laws are enforced, say

A: Very well-policed, laws enforced uniformly,
B: Well-policed, bribary sometimes for minor offences
C: Somewhat well policed.
D: Occasional Patrols
X: Watch avoids the place, “justice” enforced by local crime factions,
powerful family, or whatever. Imperial Legion comes to the place as if it
were hostile territory, in full-military mode, in the rare occasions they
bother.

Will have to detail these more, but take a gander. Note: Imperial Caern
would be something like AAA, but with some interesting twists (I.E. lots of
intrigue, but better not grab for your sword. . .)

3

Okay, time to throw my opinions in on this one :wink:

>> Personally, I don’t feel that we can completely eliminate or even try to
>> rule out the idea of someone being accosted “in broad daylight.”

I fully agree with this point. Having had quite an extensive discussion
about this subject with James, I feel that his original point came accross
a little different than what he may have intended. I think his explanation
below is much closer to the reason this was brought up. I’m sure most of us
have, at some point in our roleplaying ‘careers’, participated (or DMed) in
this type of situation. What we really want to put a stop to (ie. enforce
quite strongly) is the situation which James describes below.

>a “bar fight” in the inn, or a street brawl,
>which would result in the massacre of the patrons, and then
>when the Watch shows up the goal was to slaughter them as well & then have
>a good nights sleep upstairs, well, that’s not the atmosphere we want.

I would back this up with another situation where a PC is insulted by an
NPC (or perhaps threatened/blackmailed), and then, in broad daylight, in
the middle of a [crowded] street, proceeds to separated the NPC’s life
force from his/her body with extreme violence. You know the sort of
situation we mean. I think it should be made very clear to PC’s that this
sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. I have nothing against street
brawls, but cold-blooded murder of innocents is what (I think) we are
trying to put a stop to. Of course, like James has said, there will be some
parts of town where there are no innocents…

>Oh, don’t worry: I’m in favor of hefty fines & mutilation (slitting their
>noses, branding them with embarassing poems on the forehead, etc) as
>penalties.

not to mention public hangings (and the guillotine!!!), the stocks,
whipping, eye-for-an-eye vengeance (“M’lud, that man murdered my son, and I
demand that he suffer the same fate” - this is a good way of getting PC’s
to not openly/blatantly disobey the laws; it works a treat), tattooing of
known felons (ie. ‘thief’ tattooed on their foreheads)…I’m sure the
listmembers can contribute some more to this :slight_smile:

I like the idea of a duel being used to settle trivial things like slander,
especially amongst the nobles and in the courts (don’t wanna get that
finery all soiled with blood now, do we?). You know the sort of thing -
“How dare you slander my father’s name like that! I challenge thee to a
duel”.

>Oh, that was another thing: I was going to have “neighborhood”
>classifications for how well the laws are enforced, say
>
>A: Very well-policed, laws enforced uniformly,
>B: Well-policed, bribary sometimes for minor offences
>C: Somewhat well policed.
>D: Occasional Patrols
>X: Watch avoids the place, “justice” enforced by local crime factions,
>powerful family, or whatever. Imperial Legion comes to the place as if it
>were hostile territory, in full-military mode, in the rare occasions they
>bother.

Hand in hand with this, will be the thieves guild activity, which will work
(sort-of) in reverse to the above. Where the law is regulated, the thieves
guild’s activities will be very secret (they will be present, though. After
all, the very reason why these areas are well patrolled - there is
something there that the criminals want, and this would be a rather big
temptation to resist.

In general, what we are keeping in mind in doing this is that the Imperial
City will be a place of adventure, on all sides of the law (be the PC’s
part of the thieves guild, the watch, detectives in the ICPD, assassins,
plain adventurers, or anything else). Just my thoughts on the subject.

    Simon
4

On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Simon Graindorge wrote:

> I like the idea of a duel being used to settle trivial things like slander,
> especially amongst the nobles and in the courts (don’t wanna get that
> finery all soiled with blood now, do we?). You know the sort of thing -
> “How dare you slander my father’s name like that! I challenge thee to a
> duel”.

Interesting thought: this kind of thing sounds to be right up the alley of
the Church of Cuiraecen. Perhaps public duels are outlawed in the city as
a whole (although they still occur) but are perfectly legal in the ground
of the local Temple of Cuiraecen. This might serve to keep dueling down,
officially not tolerated, but everyone knows that they still exist. And
that if you pay your tithe to the temple of Cuiraecen you can use the
Fencing Field for an evening.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

5

Whoa, hold on a sec. It seems like the problems you describe are DM problems,
not DESIGNER problems. And we’re designers! OK, we’re DMs too..but what I
mean is, if there are players who don’t give a rat’s butt for law and order,
its up to the DM to make sure there are repurcussions to their actions. We
can’t design the city with the assumption that people are going to walk all
over it and therefore it needs to be a tough place. Because you know what you
end up with then? WATERDEEP. In Waterdeep, the watch patrols have spells that
make your weapons fly out of your hands, and whistles that instantly summon
Lord Piergeiron to your side. And every blessed tavernkeeper is an 11th level
mage with a wand of paralyzation behind the bar. Is that the kind of city you
guys want?! I’m just a little nervous here…I think this is EXACTLY what
they tried to do with Waterdeep, make it intimidating to rowdy players.
Consequently, I never want to go back there! Yuk!

If players are immature enough to try some of the things that have been
described here, then there are ways of putting them in their place. Any
lawful society worth its salt will have a low tolerance for this sort of
thing. First they become wanted criminals with a hefty bounty placed on their
heads. A party of higher level adventurers might be attracted by the bounty.
Or how about twenty armed watchmen bursting in on them while they’re asleep in
their inn, and dragging them off in irons to the magistrate. There they are
fined heavily (say, confiscation of all treasure and magic items and the
incurring of further debt) and thrown in the klink for a year, where
conditions are so harsh they emerge, penniless, with a permanent 1 point STR
and CON loss. I think they would start to get the message after a while.
Anyway, my point is, this is not something we as designers need to be
concerned with, beyond the realization that wanton slaughter of innocent
people is a big crime with hefty punishments. Otherwise, I say let the DMs
worry about it. This city is a resource, not a mandate on how to conduct your
campaign.

If your charaters are that chaotic, and they insist on hanging out in lawful
realms, there are going to be problems for them. And if they are totally
incorrigible, well, maybe you should find another group of players, since
these idiots obviously have no idea how good a game can be. And if Emirikol
the Chaotic DOES show up, make a campaign out of it. Why not? A powerful
evil adventurer with no regard for the laws and customs of society? great
adventure hook. Maybe the PCs are hired to bring him to justice.

guess I ranted a bit there, sorry. I just think there are more important
things for us to be dicsussing, like what are the categories of offenses, and
what is the schedule of punishments. This whole discussion seems a little
irrelevent, with a project this big and so much else to decide.

OK, thats it. Flame off!

Kevin M.

6

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, HSwiftfoot wrote:

> guess I ranted a bit there, sorry. I just think there are more important
> things for us to be dicsussing, like what are the categories of offenses, and
> what is the schedule of punishments. This whole discussion seems a little
> irrelevent, with a project this big and so much else to decide.

What we were trying to do here in the early planning stages, is trying to
decide, and get general concensus on, just such things. We need to know
what kind of level of law is going to prevail in the city. And it may be
helpful for us to propose a legal code that DM’s can use (or not) when
their PC DO do something illegal. As a DM, I would help to know that, for
example, when a murder is reported, the City Watch is called, and if the
evidence warrants, a City Examiner is sent to try to find the culprits. Or
whether the City Watch relies more on divination spells than on
Investigator-kit theives. And if the PC find themselves in a fight in the
street with a mysterious stranger, kill him just as the city watch shows
up, and the watchmen recognize him as the son of a local lord, what kind
of trouble are they facing: are they looking at a lengthy jail stay
pending trial, which will almost certainly find them guilty unless they
can afford to pay off the judge, or do they know that they will only spend
one night in jail, after which they will appear before an impartial judge
(appointed by the Chamberlain) witnessed by a Priest of Haelyn to ensure
truth, where they can make their case for self-defense or plead down to a
lesser offence than murder (where the penalty is a steep fine rather than
a quick hanging). That’s a pretty long sentence, but does that make sense?

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
“Thank goodness for evolution. Without opposable thumbs we’d all be a lot
less happy.”

7

>
> Whoa, hold on a sec. It seems like the problems you describe are DM
problems,
> not DESIGNER problems. And we’re designers!
>
Don’t worry too much; my initial post on this may have given the wrong
impression. What I hope to do isn’t to provide some place that is totally
locked down, Law & Order wise, and thus completely devoid of the potential
for adventure. And Joran & I are not going to arm every member (or even
significant % of) the watch with the ability to overwhelm demigods.
But, as designers, IMO we also can give the DMs some tools to deal with
troublesome players who, in their urban adventures, lack subtly, and thus,
do to stupidity (or whatever) ought to get caught & punished for their
crimes.
But we’re NOT out to create a place where intregue, stealth, burglery
(well planed, I hope), even assassination (again, well planned, I hope)
won’t be part of the game, should the players choose to be villians. But
it’s not an open air dongeon, either, and so it shouldn’t be possible to go
from building to building & treat that place (this tavern, that inn) as an
oportunity for plunder & experience points.
So there will be one or two tough investigative teams that will be
available to be called on in case of serious matters (I.E. mass murder in
the streets, followed by the massacre of the city watch forces that show
up), but they won’t deal with petty crime, and people should still be able
to conduct city adventures, including intrigue and murder. But the goal is
to give DMs tools, then let them decide when/if their use is waranted.

> these idiots obviously have no idea how good a game can be. And if
Emirikol
> the Chaotic DOES show up, make a campaign out of it. Why not? A
powerful
> evil adventurer with no regard for the laws and customs of society? great
> adventure hook. Maybe the PCs are hired to bring him to justice.
>
> guess I ranted a bit there, sorry. I just think there are more important
> things for us to be dicsussing, like what are the categories of offenses,
and
> what is the schedule of punishments.
>
Oh, don’t worry about that; that’s relatively easy, IMO. IMO this kind of
“atmosphere” stuff is harder to get right. Of course, as I said in my
initial post, anyone who has ideas for laws, schedule of punishments
(especially any odd or unusual ones which might have been put on the books
for some reason that made sense at the time; or perhaps the emperor was
just bats & no one bothered to change the law, it’s “custom” now) should
send 'em to me, or to the list.

8

I believe Kevin’s comments (fears?) have been very well answered by both James
and Mark, but there are a few points they did not respond to (one in particular)
which I feel need to be addressed. I also want to back up both James’ and Mark’s
statements to ensure people that we did not intend this discussion to come
across as it has. The steering committee has been discussing general ‘feelings’
(I’m sorry, but I can’t think of a better word to describe it) we have about the
Imperial City (IC). It is good to see that, although there are some minor
differences of opinion, for the most part, we pretty much agree with each other.
Why do I say this is this good, you may ask?

Well, there are six of us (5 SC members, and myself), none of whom is remarkably
different from any of the other members of this list. So if we all have roughly
similar ideas about the IC, then there is an extremely good chance that our
views agree with everyone else’s. Of course, I am not saying that we absolutely
agree on everything :-). But the important point here is that I think you will
find that the ‘feel’ that we have for the city will conform quite closely to
your own.

>If there are players who don’t give a rat’s butt for law and order,
>its up to the DM to make sure there are repercussions to their actions. We
>can’t design the city with the assumption that people are going to walk all
>over it and therefore it needs to be a tough place. Because you know what you
>end up with then? WATERDEEP. In Waterdeep, the watch patrols have spells that
>make your weapons fly out of your hands, and whistles that instantly summon
>Lord Piergeiron to your side. And every blessed tavernkeeper is an 11th level
>mage with a wand of paralysation behind the bar. Is that the kind of city you
>guys want?! I’m just a little nervous here…

well, let me allay your fears by answering your question:

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO and NO again!! Just to make
it crystal clear, I give you a final NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. There, is that clear
enough :slight_smile:

>I think this is EXACTLY what
>they tried to do with Waterdeep, make it intimidating to rowdy players.

I agree fully with you on this one. I think it worked, only because FR is quite
a high-powered (as well as magic-rich) campaign world. Consequently, I guess
rowdy players could quite easily wreak havoc, even in such a huge city as
Waterdeep. But there is no way in the known world that this type of thing would
work in Cerilia. And we do not intend to let it happen - at least, not while I’m
alive :-).

Hope this (along with James’ and Mark’s posts) clears things up a bit for
everyone. We appreciate any feedback we get, so please don’t be afraid to pass
comment on anything that we say.

         Simon

Simon Graindorge
Coordinator, Birthright Online City Project

E-mail: slg@nw.com.au
ICQ: 9222846
Online City Project Homepage:
http://darkstar.cyberserv.com/netbook/city/index.html

9

Reply to 11 Mar 98 vander+@pitt.edu
Punishments in the city or elsewhere is determined by how far the DM will
allow the players to go. Sort of the the old west, the faster wit wins. I’ve
had various results in various cities. It all depends on what level or value
you put on the city itself, usually the players themselves govern each other.
And if things get out of hand there is always that one bad mercenary looking
to make some extra gold or whatever. Besides any laws that govern should be
supported, and of course there are always some unnessasary evils that take
place in any populated area’s.

10

I personally like a little of each world, probably because up until Birthright
I completely designed and ran my own world (The Centaur Celebration).
Birthright is just awsome with it’s backround, it’s getting started idea’s or
clues, and it is very well laid out, I especially like the blooded abilities.
IM IMPRESSED !!! Thank You !

The only thing that I didn’t like is the war map, so I don’t use it, and for
the RP’s I generally control them as GM the characters are usually to busy,
because I still blend my own personal touches into the game.

What I would like to see is a better character development, such as an
improved skills and powers and all of BR on disc as a GM or player aid. One
more thing what ever happen to “The Falcon and the Wolf” I would die for a
copy.

Looking forward to the rerelease