I think that approach has a lot to recommend it, actually.
The one stumbling block here is that regents can smash the gp per level limit fairly easily with the use of the Finance action. Outright forbidding the Finance action doesn’t strike me as a particularly unpalatable option, though.
While true, this isn’t really the point. The raw comes across to me as a kind of penalty for any character manifesting major or great powers. I’m just trying to hash out a less penalyzing system. Criminy this is a hard issue to deal with 
I really can understand why this has been so picked apart mechanically, as really everyone posting to this thread has valid issues. Despite my earlier assertion that the feat tree was for me, I’m no longer sure. I’m becoming very seriously tempted to remove all major and great powers and have only minor powers for everyone, but it would require some serious npc reworking.
No, “drow” is not a job. Really though, “scion” is not a race either. I, however, am coming full circle I think, and I’m about ready to just go with the raw and try to let go of my objections. It’s the dang wizard that keeps tripping me up though. I just can’t help thinking that all things being equal, a 10th level wizard with a minor bloodline is going to be more powerful overall than an 8th level wizard/ 2nd level scion with the great bloodline, and that makes little sense to me. Maybe I’ll just try working out some npcs using half spell progression.
I have a question. In starting a new campaign, does the raw intend that all characters start at 1st level, including a PC lucky enough to be allowed a major or great bloodline, who would start as a 1st level scion along with the class features that go along with it? Or does the raw intend that if a character is allowed, say, a major bloodline, then all characters would start at 2nd level, with the major blooded scion as a scion 1/ whatever 1?
The RAW doesn’t dictate starting levels of the game - no more than the PHB dictates what level a generic D&D game starts at. That is up to the DM. The use of scion class levels provides a mechanic that can be used for games that start at 1st level and for those that start at higher levels.
The player “picks” a derivation and strength. {Default method is not random determination}
The strength (minor, major or great) allows access to scion class levels - that can be taken at any time a normal class level can be taken.
I had posted several suggestions for ways to handle a scion that starts with with a major (or great) strength and then gains a level of scion class (which allows access to higher level blood abilities). The RAW does not specifically address this issue and leaves it to the GM to work out in a manner that suits his game.
On 9/15/06, Sigmund <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> I have a question. In starting a new campaign, does the raw intend that all characters start at
> 1st level, including a PC lucky enough to be allowed a major or great bloodline, who would
> start as a 1st level scion along with the class features that go along with it? Or does the raw
> intend that if a character is allowed, say, a major bloodline, then all characters would start at
> 2nd level, with the mjor blooded scion as a scion 1/ whatever 1?
Daniel McSorley
That is true, I hadn’t looked at it that way actually. For PCs in my campaign, the great bloodline will not be an option the vast majority of the time, I discuss it mainly from an npc PoV. Keeping that in mind, I’d like to ask any DMs what they intend, using scion class levels, for starting levels. I’m now thinking of just using the scion class and starting everyone at 2nd level if one of the PCs wants a major bloodline. That is if I use 3.5 to play BR, which I’m right now leaning toward due to lack of time for converting BR to True20. I like the feat system, but the one objection I’ve heard that resonates with me is that many blood powers at the great or even major level are much more powerful than any other feats. If I do eventually convert to True20 though the feat system will be the definite way to go for bloodlines.
Perhaps it might be helpful to also hear how the use of scion levels have gone in actual play, if any players or DMs have used the mechanic in a game and wouldn’t mind sharing their experiences.
I guess it depends on the game being run.
If using the 2nd ed material as a starting point then the NPC regents are most likely higher level than the PCs.
If doing a complete remake of the published setting (i.e., the 2nd ed material) so that the domains are not what they were in the starting point there then it still depends on what the Dm wants to do.
If trying to come up with NPC encounters - well then it depends on what EL you are trying to have.
Gazza666, I get your point about LA templates treating everyone equally, and you are 100% right there. With LA templates everyone starts off with less power.
The reason I don’t like them is that, IMO the Scion bonuses alone are not enough of an incentive to take an LA template. LA Templates have all the negative aspects of Scion Classes and few of the benefits.
Negative aspects:
You are effectively higher level, Higher CR, and Need more Experience to level.
This is the same as losing level progression.
In addition,
You don’t gain Skills
You don’t gain Dice of HP
You don’t gain Saves
You don’t gain BAB
So, by using templates instead of levels, it may even the play field between the players some, but it does not even them out versus the Environment. Especially in a case where someone has a high blood strength, but low Blood Score. The guy with the great blood line that rolled poorly, so only has a final blood score of 24, but has to take a +2 LA so that he can get great powers down the road. With Scion levels he could even wait till later to pick up the scion level further balancing himself.
I do like the feel of LA templates better, from an RP standpoint they feel more like divine spark then levels do, but I still feel the levels are better balance wise.
Anyway, we probably won’t change eachothers mind, and we aren’t going to get the books changed, so lets depart friends.
At 03:32 AM 9/15/2006, irdeggman wrote:
>It appears that at least some people believe this is an opportunity
>to rewrite what was already “sanctioned”. They are not about
>performing “minor” tweaks either - they revolve around complete restructuring.
>
>It is not, the matter is closed. I have laid out the process and
>evolution that went into getting to where the chapter is now and
>that was extremely detailed, lengthy and democratic process.
>
>I will lay down my editorial foot here.
Has anyone actually mentioned changing the already “sanctioned”
BRCS? I don`t think anyone has said or even implied anything like that.
But, you know, now that you mention it… A wiki version of
things. Can`t wait for that to get going.
Gary
(snip!)
A few points:
[ul]
[li]Using a Savage Species inspired progression, you could ensure that someone with a great bloodline could take it in pieces, so they don’t have to take the whole LA at once if they want a few class levels first. Of course this duplicates what the scion class levels allow you to do.
[/li][li]Using Unearthed Arcana, you can buy off a LA. You can’t buy off scion levels.
[/li][li]In a very real sense, being a scion is most similar to a template (with some aspects of “inherited template” and some of “acquired template”), and D&D already has well defined rules for such characters; being a scion is not mechanically all that different from being a vampire, a lich, etc.
[/li][/ul]
However, please note that while I think that is the “purest” means of doing it, I 100% support the scion class levels. There is almost nothing fair that you can do to make sacrificing spellcasting levels attractive; you might as well make scion class levels attractive to non-spellcasters. I think the idea of making it effectively part of your inventory is actually the most interesting idea (though probably rightly rejected as overly complex for the core rules). In fact, that idea is so cool I’m wondering if it might be a way to simulate LA stuff in other D&D settings as well, such as my home brew campaign.