+2 Dex +2 Wis is the straight translation of their 2e attributes, I think that hits them well even now. The only real issue is that wis/dex even though they don’t key to the same ability tend to be mutually exclusive. However Wisdom is helpful for some Fighter builds (those that specifically max out OA’s).
This is the only race I have an opinion about starting encounter power out of the gate:
I think, the shadow walk/dimension door could easily be translated to duplicate Eladrin’s ability. That is teleport 5 squares (25ft).
They could also have specials similar to that for outside combat, but as of right now 4e’s powers mostly focus on in combat.
It did, but passing into the shadow world is no longer strictly speaking low level (at least using 4e Power scale). However, teleporting a short distance is, and would give a flavor to the halflings.
Lets not discount it too quickly. There is some sense there.
I don’t have an opinion either way but …
All teleportation spells in BR are considered to touch the shadow world one way or another. Why doesn’t a race that has access to the shadow world be able to use in a similar fashion.
Of course the same issue happens if they contact the shadow world there is a chance something could come out from there. This certainly reduces the effectiveness of the ability.
In the end I feel it should be considered more of a plane shift … going strictly to the shadow world and back. But neat idea.
>In the end I feel it should be considered more of a plane shift …
>going strictly to the shadow world and back. But neat idea.
I have no problem with an interpretation of the halfling ability to
shift into shadow as something like that. One should note, however,
that there`s a difference between that and
teleportation. Teleportation is instant and (often) flawless. The
SW is a mirror image of the world of light, not a sort of
interdimensional warp, and the halfling ability is fundamentally to
move into that world. To move about on the battlefield a halfling
would shift into the SW, move, shift back and possibly have to
reorient to the light after the change. Imagine the difference
between a character who “pops!” back and forth, and another who
vanishes, moves and then reappears.
In practice, the ability might not differ much from teleportation
game mechanically, but there should be some discreet differences to
reflect the distinction.
Halflings should probably not be able to just use such a power at any
time and place either. BR is full of special criteria for such
abilities. Those who Travel have special requirements, for example,
and the ability to enter the SW often goes along with static “gates”
between the two worlds, not simply an ability to “jump” into another
world from any location. That said, one of the locations that are
supposedly “close to the Shadow World” are battlefields where many
have fallen. Presumably a whole area of ground might be a “door” and
a halfling could shift from any point on that field.
The problem is, Plane Shift is now a ritual that costs money.
Even granting them the affect of a plane shift (even limited) is probably more prohibitive balance wise then worthwhile (though through a racial paragon level feat it might be ok).
By giving them a minor teleportation trick at the encounter level, in my thoughts, you keep the other worldly feel of the halfling, while maintaing the abilities presented in the PHB (One Race that teleports 1/encounter) but giving it a birthright twist.
There is an ability of movement in 4e called phasing, that is functionally similar to Teleportation, but discretely diffrent.
With teleportation you move more or less instantly, as long as you can see it, and you can teleport while imobile.
Phasing you can ignore diffcult terrain, obstacles, and creatures, but must end in an unoccupied space but otherwise works like normal movement.
The reason why I first suggested teleportation for the halfling is the simple fact that 4e is largely about tatical movement, one of the base races in the PHB offers teleporation (The Eladrin kinda sorta high elves) and the race in Cerillia it would go to didn’t really fit them. It did however fit the general otherwordly feel the Halflings had.
I agree. Good to be open about things. A minor jump abilities would give them a little extra something … but many might feel it would be out of the Birthright setting norm. Little too magical.
Problem is they do have the ability to travel to the shadow world as it stands. How do we relay this in their characters. Perhaps a racial path might make sense. Some Halflings retain the ability to travel to the shadow world but many have let that ability go, but any halfling could learn it with enough training.
If the transport is inherently limited by the setting, the power is automatically restricted. The shadow world is the only plane the halflings can get to, and it is most definitely not safe - I’d suggest making it take some serious concentration, or expenditure of some sort, need a weak spot (DM’s call), but otherwise letting them have it - why not?
If the halfling can’t use the power in combat (except maybe to flee) then it should be fairly limited in any unbalancing effect - particularly if taking anything with them is hard. In 2e the ability wasn’t about combat, I don’t see why we’d make it a combat power - frankly most halfling wouldn’t be in combat in the first place.
That said you really want a progression of some sort:
Peer into the shadow realm / see denizens for what they are
Transport yourself
Take stuff/small group with you
Open a gate to allow the emporer’s armies to march forth
You could put level restrictions on at each point - what is unbalancing at L1 is fine at L10.
It would be as simple as having them be racial feats for the higher tiered ones.
From 2e, BR Halflings could, with a 75% chance of success and concetration, either Detect Magic, Detect Evil, or Detect Undead by ‘peering’ into the Shadowworld. They also had a 10 to 100% chance (sunny to cold winter night) of Dimension Dooring or Shadow Walking up to 3 times per week.
I would recommend something along the lines of giving them the ability to know the Skill ‘Arcana’ which allows you to Detect Magic and then another ability called ‘Shadow Eyes’, or something, which allows them to use Detect Evil and Detect Undead as per the Detect Magic effect.
And then give them a Daily/ Event feat that allows them to phase out into the Shadow world and walk 5 spaces before re-appearing or the round is up. Then feats can improve on it from there. However, I would also add a danger clause that if the Halfling does not peer into the Shadow World first before Shadow Stepping, they could potentially find themselves in a bad position on the other side. Racial Feats would lengthen time as well as number of individuals effected.
Why is this a problem? Lets go back to 1st principles and look at the original halfling. He could, as Autarkis mentions, perform three detections in a single round with 75% accuracy as a 5th level wizard. He had his shadow world talent that allowed him 3/ per week to either Dimension Door or Shadow Walk a 7th level wizard’s spell at the 10th level of ability. This is a pretty huge power to make a racial ability. But we took it in stride in 2nd edition. So why is it suddenly a problem?
Now, the least important aspects of these include how often they are available and how long they take to activate. I don’t know that “per week” is a term of art in 4th edition. Everything seems to be speeded up to at will, per encounter, and daily. Given that everything is speeded up in 4e, why not just allow the halfling to use his talent as a daily power. It seems there is already a mechanic for the Dimension Door aspect, the Eladrin’s ability, and I am fine with just using that as is.
As far as the Shadow Walk ability:
Since this was originally a 7th level wizard’s spell, it was hardly low level in 2nd edition. The fact that others have to pay money to access this power is fine. But for halflings this is an innate power, so why not just allow it as a daily power?
The old skill was limited by when and where it was applied. That’s more than flavor, it goes to the very nature of what separates the daylight world and the shadow world. The 3rd edition conversion required a feat to access this skill. I’m not sure why they thought that was necessary. They established DC’s from 0 to 30.
I see no reason why this ability need not be a racial ability usable daily. What may require some refinement is how one mechanizes the chance for success.
I’m not a fan of the nightcrawlerisc blinking. Gates to the shadow world aren’t instant and it seems a bit too Forgetten Realms and less Birthright.
Give them the detection abilities and faster regeneration of the Dimension Door. I’d be tempted to add some flavor to it and give them an exhaustion or fear penalty for a brief period after using the ability to make them less likely to want to.
Well part of it is, its a high level ritual to limit accidental wandering monster deaths. I am not par say opposed to halflings being allowed to plane shift, its just races now essentially have three things they offer.
Racial Attribute Modifers (Majority: +2 to 2 diffrent attributes)
Racial Encounter Power (All but humans having something at the encounter level, Dwarves’s Second Wind is a minor action instead of standard but Second wind is only useable 1/encounter. Half Elves get an at will of an off class as a encounter power, all others have flavorful talents).
Skill Modifers
Most also have some other handy benifit.
Most have 3 feats split between the Heroic and Paragon Tiers, but they don’t add powers they modify them.
Now the encounter powers presented in the PHB (IE the ones they feel should be generally in player hands):
1 AoE (Dragon Breath deals minor damage, is mostly for minion control)
2 Rerolls (One on the PC side, one on the DM Side)
1 Movement based (Teleporation is easily the best form of movement)
1 Healing Based (Second Wind lets you spend a healing surge)
Halflings in the Base book get to make the DM reroll a roll, which could still fit in vague ways with BR
Elves get to reroll, and the Eladrin (high elves) get to teleport. Of these, the Reroll fits the Sidhe much better than the teleportation, as though they are connected to the land and are magical, its not that style of magic.
However Dimenson Door was always a kinda minor teleport action. Thus the gensis for my idea. ITs felt that teleportation is too strong for simulation of the shadow world powers of halflings, so I suggest maybe: Allowing them to move in phase 1/encounter, Phasing in 4e works similarly to teleport only is much more minor. You can’t phase if imbolized, but you get the same affect of ignoring hostile terrain and obstacles. (including creatures).
Now, the least important aspects of these include how often they are available and how long they take to activate. I don’t know that “per week” is a term of art in 4th edition. Everything seems to be speeded up to at will, per encounter, and daily. Given that everything is speeded up in 4e, why not just allow the halfling to use his talent as a daily power. It seems there is already a mechanic for the Dimension Door aspect, the Eladrin’s ability, and I am fine with just using that as is.
As far as the Shadow Walk ability:
Since this was originally a 7th level wizard’s spell, it was hardly low level in 2nd edition. The fact that others have to pay money to access this power is fine. But for halflings this is an innate power, so why not just allow it as a daily power?
I’m not strictly speaking opposed to allowing them to use the ritual Nth times a week/month, just to me Shadow Walk (Though as I think about it, Phasing is a better interptation of Shadow Walk then planar movement par say anyway) equates planar movement, if in a minor way (you move to the demiplane of shadow and walk much faster than normal). The ritual thing is more the cost involved is meant to prohbit parties from abusing certain powers, placing a limit of X freebies a week does the same thing.
The old skill was limited by when and where it was applied. That’s more than flavor, it goes to the very nature of what separates the daylight world and the shadow world. The 3rd edition conversion required a feat to access this skill. I’m not sure why they thought that was necessary. They established DC’s from 0 to 30.
I see no reason why this ability need not be a racial ability usable daily. What may require some refinement is how one mechanizes the chance for success.
See to me, to keep BRCS on par with the PHB the races need some of the similar abilities, and having done a few combats in 4e, tatical movement is more critical than just about anything else, so having an option for superior tatical movement in the game is important.
So, if I understand you correctly, your argument now, is that the number of powers for a race is sufficiently reduced that just the teleport ability stands in balance to the others, and that the rest of the racial abilities are handled in other ways, then that’s fine. The rest of it, like the high level ritual bit, are not consequential given what we have in 2e.
This is the money quote. You see, we’re not gathered here because we think 4e is the greatest thing and would like to see BR crammed into its framework. Instead we are committed to Birthright and would rather see the setting retain the same feel while perhaps using 4e mechanics, if such a thing makes sense. But most of us are not inclined to see BR compromised because 4e does it this way.
As a daily power (double what 2e allowed) I can accept a little shadow walking in combat, though I would prefer some more of the classic feel. But as an encounter ability, I have to totally side with Lawgiver on this and say its way too flashy for BR.
Of course we still have the detection ability of halflings to consider.
So true KG. This is why the BRCS for D&D3 does not have Monks and Gnomes worked into it. We are not trying to fit Birthright into D&D3. We are trying to fit D&D3 into Birthright. I suspect that for D&D4, this would the simplest approach too.
That said, a little bit of the BRCS has been designed the other way, e.g. allowing in sorcerers and introducing the Scion class with levels so that PCs have “blooded” included in their character level. But I suspect that people will want to remodel the D&D4 races (like we are discussing here) to fit what Birthright expects and ignore any additional races.
Sorontar.
whose Rjurik druid has “Word of Recall” (6th level cleric spell in AD&D) prepared as his teleportation escape clause from life-ending combat… provided he doesn’t get knocked out.
Well not exactly, each race has a specific encounter level ability that contributes to the power pool, the only exception is humans who have an extra at will power. Thus: If we strive for balance we must keep this pattern.
This is the money quote. You see, we’re not gathered here because we think 4e is the greatest thing and would like to see BR crammed into its framework. Instead we are committed to Birthright and would rather see the setting retain the same feel while perhaps using 4e mechanics, if such a thing makes sense. But most of us are not inclined to see BR compromised because 4e does it this way.
Oddly, I would rather see BR fit smoothly with 4e, which does require several alterations, some for balance purposes, others to actually shore up otherwise lagging abilities. In 2e, 1/week was ok, in 3e 1/week was iffy. in 4e 1/week doesn’t exsist.
As a daily power (double what 2e allowed) I can accept a little shadow walking in combat, though I would prefer some more of the classic feel. But as an encounter ability, I have to totally side with Lawgiver on this and say its way too flashy for BR.
If thats too flashy, then MM as a whole has to be revised whole scale to fit for BR. 4E is flashier than 2e or 3e, I agree. I don’t see specifically why Birthright with its Blood Abilities can’t boost its races to be flashy with it. Again, tactical movement in combat is Expected in 4e. 4e has a race that exploits tactical movement. limiting the ability to 1/day effectively removes it as a tactical choice, except in tactical retreat.
Of course we still have the detection ability of halflings to consider.
Thats because detection per say doesn’t exist in 4e.
Detect Magic (of any kind) no longer exists in ritualized or non-ritualized form.
I am not sure why on this one, and have no suspicions.
Detect Evil is gone. This was because Detect Evil, Zone of Truth and Detect Thoughts ruined mystery style adventures (and intrigue), or so the rumors go.
Because Birthright is not a flashy setting. This is why so many people insist on low magic (or rare magic) and low level. Its a political setting. Giving everyone cool interaction abilities instead of encounter abilities makes a lot more sense for BR. I think its worth spending some time seriously considering that option.
Again, tactical movement in combat is Expected in 4e. 4e has a race that exploits tactical movement. limiting the ability to 1/day effectively removes it as a tactical choice, except in tactical retreat.
I normally have combat once a gaming session. And then only because too much combat free gaming leaves players hungry for a little blood. Frankly 1/encounter and 1/month amount to the same thing in a combat ability. (Except in wartime.)