Realm of the White Witch

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Discussion thread for [Realm of the White Witch](http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Realm of the White Witch). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

Hmm, I’ve tried to put some fluff up for the Realm of the White Witch. To make it playable I’ve called it Gandvick (thanks to Larry Saw for the idea) and called the White Witch ‘Queen Karena’ to give her a veneer of respectability.

Any comments? Does it need an observation banner?

Any alternate names for the realm/witch?

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If we have a proper name for it, we should move the page to Gandvick.

We certainly can’t place an observation on a main realm page. If we have controversial stuff, it should go on a separate page. What material are you concerned about?

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Is there an explanation to go with that name? That is, what is the reason behind his inspiration? I’d like to hear it.

The obvious name for the realm is Pohjola! As Wikipedia puts it, “Pohjola is a location in Finnish mythology and is usually translated as Northland in English… the Mistress of Pohjola is Louhi, an evil witch of great power.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjola) One nice touch is that while most of the Rjurik names are faux (or actual) Norwegian or Swedish, the second biggest town in the White Witch’s realm is Oulu, which is a real city in Finland.

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This works very nicely!

“The Mistress of Pohjola is Louhi, an evil witch of great power.” She had a magic mill of plenty, and the White Witch is a financial genius, also enjoying plenty.

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According to Larry Saw, who found the name, Gandvick was the name the British sailors called a Scandinavian country of sorcerers, they apparently bought wind from the sorcerers who lived there…

I figured that as the realm was ruled by sorcerers for most of its existence the name was fairly appropriate.

Another thought was a netherlands approach, ‘holland’ - as the brits call it. The first sailors we met came from the county of holland, so we named the country after the county… As such the realm could have several names depending on who you ask.

What doesn’t really work in my mind is calling it ‘the white witch’s realm’ - that’s a domain description not a domain name! It also immediately makes the realm the obvious local big bad with whom none trade or make treaty.

You get a similar issue with the Magian, he is officially a court advisor, yet Pipyret is supposed to be named after him since it was conquered (liberated)? Much better to have it still called Pipyret… The Raven’s domain should also be known by its former name with most Vos believing (or at least hoping) that he is still the Tsar whose body he stole.

Back to the WW realm, Pohjola sounds fine - although the ending a little soft compared to most other Rjurik names.

My concerns are:

  • <any> name change, particularly of an iconic awnie and her realm, could be contentious in themselves.

  • I did a history write up which is extrapolated from canon but could be disputed since it suggests that Queen Karena is not generally known as the WW, indicates emnity with Bervinnig and possibly influence on his decline, suggests that the druids may not be absolutely opposed to the temple of Kreisha by making her philosophy part of a cycle of winter and summer, etc.

  • I have assumed a mixed population - including goblins and elves. It suits the WWs pragmatism that she would have conquered the goblins rather than slaughtered them, but some might dislike the idea of a human ruling goblins. Similarly with the elves, although I slanted to taxes bit to suggest that they pay basically lip service at best. I wonder how many artifacts recovered by her elven wizards actually reach Mandal, very few if they are elven in nature or designed to harm the elves I expect!

  • I have given her some mages - albeit elven ones. Some people don’t like the idea of wizards in the Highlands at all, and the WW realm with its history could be very opposed to them. From a practical viewpoint if the WW gets RP from sources via a vassal regent then she gets even stronger… For that though she would need to trust a wizard and consider paying for sources to be more cost effective than expanding her guild network.

This may be best settled by multiple pages (like we did for the Independent churches of Sera and the White Hand) which show the ‘public realm’ and the ‘dm secret realm’.

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I always thought, that “Pohjola” means “North” in Finnish. At least family name of one acquaitance of mine - Pohjolainen - means “northman”. We have here in our community at least some people from Norway and Sweden, maybe from Denmark too. I’ll be glad to hear their advices on quasi-scandinavian names.

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It does. The White Witch’s Realm is also the second-northernmost realm in Rjurik (the most northerly is Hogunmark). One of its province names, Nordcapp, is Norwegian for North Cape, meaning the northernmost point in mainland Europe. Another is Kandalask, modified from Kandalaksha, an Arctic port in the Russian part of the Scandinavian penninsula; this is presumably a reference to the fact that the White Witch, as a priestess of Kriesha, is culturally more Vos than Rjurik. Rovan comes from Rovaniemi, a city in Finland which is pretty much due north of Oulu and due west of Kandalaksha. Pitea is in Sweden, nearly due west from Oulu across the Gulf of Bothnia. Bjornoya and Soroya are islands off the Norwegian coast. I suspect if I were to keep digging, I’d find real Scandinavian place names for every one of the White Witch’s provinces, and nearly every province in Rjurik.

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Sure, “gand” as in “Gandalf”, which is Old Norse for “sorcerer elf” (literally wand-elf), and vick for “vik” (meaning “cove” or “inlet”) as in “viking” (literally, “guy who sails away”).

It was? I would have thought “sorcerer’s cove” applied much better to the coast of Lluabraight.

That’s how all the awnsheghlien are treated – “The Siren’s Realm”, “The Banshegh’s Realm”, “The Vampire’s Realm”, “The Lamia’s Realm”, “The Manticore’s Realm”, “The Gorgon’s Crown”, etc. They all had other names once, but nowadays all anyone cares about is that they are ruled by big bad scary monsters.

I think this is what the original designers intended, though in many cases I think the normal human realms are much more likely to trade with the awnsheghlien than the elves (the major exception being Tuarhievel vs. the Gorgon). I agree that I would prefer to restore the pre-awnie names like Ust Atka (Raven), Pipryet (Magian), Besaiam (Lamia) and so on, which requires inventing such older names for realms (like the White Witch’s) which don’t have any.

That’s because it’s Finnish and they’re Norse. You could also try Pohjoinen (north, as a compass point), Pohjanmaa (a modern Finnish geographical region), or Pohjantähti (the North Star). I would like to keep some explicit connection to the evil realm from the Kalevala.

I really, really dislike such things in my Cerilia. Having an awnshegh rule goblins and humans, as the Gorgon does, is just possible, but adding elves to the mix strikes me as a really bad idea – unless, of course, the White Witch is really just Llaeddra of Lluabraight in disguise, in which case both the gobbos and the humies are equally mere slaves of the Sidhelien. :slight_smile:

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I agree, the “tribes” of elves in her lands makes no sense to me, compared to the “death before assimilation” attitude of the Lluabright elves. If you could make this more mysterious, then one could wonder about elven diplomats or puppetmasters, then you’re talking.

Also-- Gandvick or Gandvik? I note that nearly all other Rjurik names end in -ik.

If the realm really had been ruled by centuries of wizards, then one could easily suppose dozens of magic-ful abandoned wizards’ towers or houses or dungeons all over the place, no? Such a band of magic-slingers need some historical detailing of their own.

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Yes, it would have to be Gandvik, or even Gandveik; Gandvick would be a Brecht or Anuirean misspelling of the Rjurik original.

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And for more fun in that direction, as you have mentioned, a vik is a bay or cove, but in early English a wic is a settlement. The vikings established bases at landings, but are they given Viking names based on the landing site, or English names based on the settlement. Berwick being a classic example.

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I’m fine with ‘Gandvick’ – but I will note, that several Awnie realms have ‘Domain description’ types of names, or rather names that describe the founder; The Siren’s Realm, The Magian, The Sphinx, The Raven, The Manticore,Vampire’s hold, The Wolf, Rhuobhe, even The Gorgon’s Crown – there is enough evidence there to suggest that these would actually be country names! Or that the setting allows for a “fashion” of names associated to the founder.
I agree that there are no great examples of this in our own history, save perhaps Lotharingia, for Lothair 1st, grandson of Carolus Magnus… no one knew what else to call this eclectic piece of land in the middle of Francia (to the West) and Germania (to the East)

“Tell me Master Jan, what is this place colored of white on your map; I see notes and scribbles, but what then is the name of such a place!”
“Ah my small friend; this is a land of many names; The elves once claimed it for Lluabraight, and men for the hoguns, the sorcerer. But now a priestess of karesha claims it and most in the highlands call it the White Witch’s Realm…”
“… Witch! No Moradin-fearing dwarf would dare set foot in a place that boasts being that of a kareshan witch!”
“Ha! But that is just it; That is only the name most used. The witch of course calls her domain alternatively ‘Kareshan Commonwealth of Gandvik’ or ‘Tryygvaarmark’ , I’ve even seen a silver coin (for that’s all she will mint) with a map of her realm being called ‘The Empire of the North’, and on the reverse side her profile with a mysterious crown said to be of dwarven make”
“A crown stolen no doubt!”
“Ney, I have heard that the magical crown of the north was created by the dwarves of Khurin-Azur at the witch’s behest – and that it had cost her near a hundred gold bars.”
“Blasphemy! Why would the brave dwaves of Khurin-Azur ever do such a thing!”
“Don’t be so quick to judge the witch so harshly, or your brethren of Khurin-Azur as traitors; remember that the Gorgon is near, and that gold means survival for them… even the witch can be a powerful friend, even if suffering is her ultimate agenda…”
“A witch anyway, if you ask me!”

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These realms are not called such on the wiki. Realms that have been detailed have been described by the names from Blood Enemies or other sources where names exist.

The Siren’s Realm is a stub
The Magian’s Domain is a stub
The Sphinx’s domain is a stub
The Raven’s realm is a page called Ust Atka
The Manticore’s domain is a page called Morrinzavod
Vampire’s hold is a page called Wechselfell
I’m not sure why the Wolf has a realm at all, the description makes it sound like an autonomous part of Hjorig.
I’ve talked about Rhuobhe with Sorontar and neither of us are happy with a province, a realm, and a character all sharing the same name. It makes pages hard to name when everything shares the same name. We haven’t done anything about it, but we did raise the idea of using other names from Sword and the Crown.
The Gorgon’s Crown works for me, but I’m fine with that term being used to describe the Gorgon’s over all organization, not his realm. Describing his relationships with his subject realms, and so on.

These domains, “awnshegh’s realm” have redirects that lead any search to the current page.

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Whups my bad, yes ‘vik’ not ‘vick’.

elves - I wrote it to be members in name only - I disliked the idea that the population would just appear given how far north the realm is ‘citizens’ who give/trade the occasional luxury item and then have the duty/right to hunt down foreign mages, investigate all magic found, etc could be read as puppets or puppeteers - what do the elves really want from a ruler anyway? I can however see the elves wanting to eradicate human mages that might be able to pass the wards of Lluabraight, and ensure that any magic looted from the old mage towers is vetted by them prior to anyone else getting a looi at it and a few decades idle service a cheap price to pay for that.

I added the elves to give the WW some interesting minions, and allow outsiders a way to prove themselves to the elves - to interact in the game the elves must have people they know/like/trust and trying to become one of those people after you enter Lluabraight is tactically unwise.

Incidentally I expect that elves are found in a number of non-elven realms - Dhoesone being the most obvious. They probably ignore the human ruler in each place as far as possible, if there are issues with the locals they will pay a token to avoid conflict (if they want to avoid conflict) and move on. So I can see barons boasting of their elven subjects, priests boasting of converts, both likely aware that the elves in question are simply nomadic with no tie or loyalty to the professed allegiance at all…

Basically my view on elven subjects is that it’s like ruling cats. I mean, sure you own your cat, but how loyal is your cat? Sure it pops round at dinner time, curls up in front of the fire, cuddles when it wants a stroke - but if those were missing it would simply go to the house of another ‘owner’ to satisfy its wants.

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I never understood how the wolf was a major awnie and the swordhawk a minor awnie…

But yes, the wolf should not have a realm - it has no interest in ruling, and is not seen as ruler by the people. Blood enemies describes the provinces as an independent group of provinces under the regency and control of Hjorig which I presume means that from a mechanic perspective means just that its part of Hjorig and simply happens to be called wolfgaard by the locals.

Maybe if his new alpha female Shaeron wants she can forge a realm for him, but I don’t see him as having any interest in it.

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Exactly. It is no more a regent of part of Hjorig than the Boar of Thuringode is regent of part of Massenmarch. Their transformation has made them into animals, who no longer even have the mental concept of ruling people, much less the desire for it. They are now like King Pellinore’s Questing Beast, not the King himself.

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To throw some explanation into the waters here, the reason I chose Gandvik for our recent Birthright game was due to the origin of the realm. At the time the Sorceror arrived, much of what is now the Domain of the White Witch was ruled by Lluabraight. Given the traditional Rjuven aversion to magic, I thought that the Sorceror’s Tower, and the land and bay nearby, would be referred to as Gandvik (Sorceror’s Bay) by those who came to trade, dwell and fight in his service.

As to the Awnshegh realms, personally I think that all of them have proper names. If they are called the Wolf’s Domain, or the Realm of the Magian, it is only because the fame and dread of the entity in question has eclipsed the name of its domain- much like you sometimes think of the war in Iraq as being against Saddam Hussein or the al-Qaeda, and not necessarily against the nation of Iraq. The name of the land, however, is not forgotten, and probably remains in conventional use, except, perhaps, in domains where the Awnshegh has ruled for hundreds of years. The Gorgon’s Crown probably will never have another name, for instance, even if the Gorgon should be defeated.

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I think that’s fine: and I agree there: for the purpose of the wiki I agree that it’s important to keep the realm name different from the regent; and using a redirect is probably the best way to point a “Awshegh’s realm” name to a meaningful domain name. I will admit having a hard time when the Siren died in my game; what do you call the realm once the awny is dead!?

I echo that entirely; and I really believe that the setting feels like the “name most used” for the domain would most likely be the “awnshegh’s realm”… even by the organization/bureaucracy. I would not be surprised by coins minted in the name of “The Siren’s Realm” or “The Raven”, units named “The Siren’s Realm 1st Company of Archers” or such… The “Witch” is slightly different since the term itself is quite derogatory; you wouldn’t expect the Witch to boast about being a witch; especially in a rjuven setting where wizards and witches are outcasts (and she’s a priestess actually!) - so it does sound like harsh… And from Blood enemies it does sound like she rules in a sly diplomatic way (not an overpowering dictatorial fear-based manner). The Sorcerer would have probably been a different matter: wishing to instill fear by calling his realm the “sorcerer’s realm”, and priding himself in his dominance.
Finaly one influence that we probably all feel is Narnia’s “White witch” (the similarities are almost purposeful I think!). And Narnia’s White witch styles herself “Queen of Narnia” – probably hates being called the “White witch”. I’m not sure if Karesha’s chosen in Mandal feels the same about being called (and feared) as the “White Witch”.

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From the introduction on the page Besaïam:

“For five centuries, the Lamia has held the land through deception and vicious warfare. Though Besaïam is its true name, many outsiders just refer to it as the Realm of the Lamia.”

We have included references to the “Awnshegh’s reign” in such role playing notes to suggest its not an uncommon term for some people.

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It is quite egoistical to have the realm named after you - quite reasonable for most awnies, particularly the more brutal ones, but not in my view right for those whose approach is based on the appearance of normality or cunning. The other aspect is diplomacy - the social order will prevent dealing with people who could subvert it (dealing with enemies just means counting your fingers afterwards and over-charge them) and the vos aside the awnie’s are closely tied to Azrai/Belinik/Kreisha making them subversion threats for the 4 non-Vos nations.

The White Witch certainly has the ego to name the realm after her - but as said does she called herself the white witch? Does she seek rule through force, or operate as a puppeteer? The Raven may be arrogant enough to rename his realm but he rules because he inhabits the Tsar’s body - does he really want to advertise that he is one of the Lost and a foe to Belinik and Kriesha? Rhoubhe probably doesn’t bother with a name for his realm - all Cerilia belongs to the elves and they recognise no claim to ownership over any land in his view (land ownership arises from agriculture and mineral rights - the elves don’t appear to have either) meaning it would be externally named - and he’s the only thing really in it, the Chimereon sounds like another externally applied name which recognises that the ‘realm’ is basically just the awnie’s stomping grounds.

One thing to note is that some of the awnies are quite new - the Witch is only a few decades old I think, the Raven 10 or 60 depending on the source, the Magian just 10 years, etc. Very long lived awnies may well have a realm named after them if it lacks other significant features, but the larger the realm and the shorter the awnies reign the more likely that it keeps its name in my view.

I’m not sure what to call the Siren’s realm - for most of its existence it was ruled by the Duskman but he was a gnoll so the humans were unlikely to name it after him.